Audio Blind Testing

[marce]

8 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Ummm, my copy is worn out, just about - I 'pinched' the earlier edition from the library, because I couldn't bear not having access to it ... .

 

Note, the magic word "Art" in the title - the content is all about being completely pragmatic in the exercise of designing, and I learnt a lot about the "usefulness" of spec sheets.

 

However, it told me nothing about how to ensure audio systems work well enough to get the SQ I chase - what it did do was give me plenty of clues on how to approach thinking about circuits - and how to take nothing for granted, .

Its not a magic word, use a dictionary it definition in this usage is listed.

[fas42]

5 hours ago, esldude said:

That does not fit with how we hear directionality nor with other people's experience.  

 

Mono sound coming over stereo speakers is slightly unusual as an experience - people can easily test this for themselves by standing close to, and midway between the speakers. For a half decent rig there should be a very strong 'image' of the event now directly in front of them; if one moves one's head to the left or right then that frontal image should sustain for at least some degree of movement in those directions - before it collapses into the nearest speaker. The illusion I get is that there is never that moment of collapsing, no matter how far I move my head; it's just an extension of what always occurs to some degree.

 

Some people will likely never hear this, because of how their brains are wired; and, it requires a sufficient SQ - most of time, most of my systems haven't done this, because they have not been adequately optimised in the particular moment; but I only have to "full out some more stops", to get the behaviour.

[fas42]

Yes, another infernal dup ...

[esldude]

3 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Mono sound coming over stereo speakers is slightly unusual as an experience - people can easily test this for themselves by standing close to, and midway between the speakers. For a half decent rig there should be a very strong 'image' of the event now directly in front of them; if one moves one's head to the left or right then that frontal image should sustain for at least some degree of movement in those directions - before it collapses into the nearest speaker. The illusion I get is that there is never that moment of collapsing, no matter how far I move my head; it's just an extension of what always occurs to some degree.

 

Some people will likely never hear this, because of how their brains are wired; and, it requires a sufficient SQ - most of time, most of my systems haven't done this, because they have not been adequately optimised in the particular moment; but I only have to "full out some more stops", to get the behaviour.

This is not what you have been describing exactly.  Yes, getting a strong central image like that is a piece of cake in the sweet spot.  How far the effect keeps up with head movement depends upon the speakers dispersion, the room and how the recording was made.  You left me with the impression earlier that one could move around the room and sustain this.  Not leaning one's head, but moving over to the right and the left.  Never heard such a thing, and if that happened something weird is going on.  Because of the way hearing works that should not be the case with two speakers playing a mono signal.   Some speakers can act oddly, but that is hardly a guide to improved playback quality.  A rather directional speaker could have the main lobe directed to in front of the opposite speaker and you'll get something similar to what you describe for some recordings.  You loose some specificity of the good recordings if you do this enough to widen the image too much.  

[pkane2001]

44 minutes ago, esldude said:

You left me with the impression earlier that one could move around the room and sustain this.  Not leaning one's head, but moving over to the right and the left.  Never heard such a thing, and if that happened something weird is going on.  

 

That's been my impression, as well, apparently confirmed by Frank's answers to my questions. @fas42, would it be too much to ask you to describe your method in detail, something that others could understand and try to repeat? A recipe perhaps? After reading many of your posts, I'm now confused as to what it is you do and advocate frequently.

[fas42]

8 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

That's been my impression, as well, apparently confirmed by Frank's answers to my questions. @fas42, would it be too much to ask you to describe your method in detail, something that others could understand and try to repeat? A recipe perhaps? After reading many of your posts, I'm now confused as to what it is you do and advocate frequently.

 

Sorry if there has been any confusion! I used the example of head movement, in the sweet spot, so that people would understand the sense of the experience - again, the concept is that the sweet spot enlarges so that it takes in the full room. Which means, there is no longer a "sweet spot" in the usual sense - if I'm positioned in the proper, central position, move my head left or right, get up and move left or right, or move randomly around the room - nothing changes. Alternatively, the experience is as if I'm in the recording space, and move around while listening.

 

This works with completely conventional, boring, two way box speakers - I have never tried more exotic speaker machinery, but don't see any reason why the behaviour would differ. In fact, I heard the big MBL omnis at a high end show throw up the familiar presentation - it's "always the same".

 

The point being, it's not what the speaker is doing, or what the sound pattern being projected into the room is - it's that the ear/brain 'decides' what the sound field 'means' - and there is no conscious control of this. And the most important parameter is the absence of audible artifacts in the sound, which allow the brain to lock onto the drivers being the source. The switch goes inside one's head - either one can locate the drivers, or one can't; there is no inbetween ...

 

I have been asked many times to describe the process, and I have attempted to respond - but this has never worked: people can't "tune into" the approach - and it always ends in tears ...

 

The most important thing is to be able to hear whether the system is working properly or not - if you can't detect or identify the distortion that less than optimal playback adds to the sound, then you're "working blind" - so the recipe would start: play recordings which sound "awful" on your setup, and study the sound; what precisely is it that makes that track unpleasant to listen to?

 

Sorry, I will be busy on chores stuff for a bit; so won't be around for much of the day.

[gmgraves]

18 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Mono sound coming over stereo speakers is slightly unusual as an experience - people can easily test this for themselves by standing close to, and midway between the speakers. For a half decent rig there should be a very strong 'image' of the event now directly in front of them; if one moves one's head to the left or right then that frontal image should sustain for at least some degree of movement in those directions - before it collapses into the nearest speaker. The illusion I get is that there is never that moment of collapsing, no matter how far I move my head; it's just an extension of what always occurs to some degree.

 

Some people will likely never hear this, because of how their brains are wired; and, it requires a sufficient SQ - most of time, most of my systems haven't done this, because they have not been adequately optimised in the particular moment; but I only have to "full out some more stops", to get the behaviour.

 

More likely, they won't experience it because their speakers are out of phase. I find it remarkable how many systems I've heard where this is the case. I've walked into stereo shops where I've walked in front of a playing system, and announced to the sales guy "Those speakers are out of phase!" only to find out that of all the foot traffic that has walked through that shop, I'm the only person who has noticed it, and nine times out of ten, I'll get an argument from the sales people until, finally, just to prove me wrong, they decide to check, only to find that I was right, one speaker or amp connection is wired backwards! It's happened so many times since I was a teenager that it makes me wonder what gives most of these audio salesmen the "credentials" to sell audio equipment! Out-of-phase speakers are instantly noticeable (just walk across the room, from one speaker to the other), yet these clowns never notice it!

[marce]

One would hope in the obsessive world of Audiophiles, that getting that basic thing right would be one of the first ports of call...

[Ralf11]

what gives most of these audio salesmen the "credentials" to sell audio equipment is the same thing that gives used car salesmen the "credentials" to sell cars...