Help Trouble Shooting Skip-to-next-track problem in my Streaming setup

[rodrigaj]

I've stopped the BubbleUPnP Server process and have not had a skipped track yet (Tidal running for two hours with A+).

 

I used to have BubbleUPnP Server running because I used it for Lumin App. So now it is stopped for sure. Hopefully, that is all that is needed.

[sockpit]

So far as I understand things, I have a bubbleupnp server on my mR that has OH renderer capacity to allow me to stream via Lumin and Kazoo.  Both have skipped.

 

i also tried disabling that bubbleupnp server and installing a different one on my Mac to see if an OH renderer elsewhere might solve the problem.  It didn’t.

 

So I upgraded to A+ 3 and use the DNLA output.  That does the trick and even sounds a little richer.

 

But I’d prefer to have Lumin available as controller with skipping esp when my Mac isn’t around, etc. 

 

just clarifying my specific set up and problem, in case @vortecjr takes an interest in these recent posts.  Thx.

[nbpf]

9 hours ago, sockpit said:

So far as I understand things, I have a bubbleupnp server on my mR that has OH renderer capacity to allow me to stream via Lumin and Kazoo.  Both have skipped.

 

i also tried disabling that bubbleupnp server and installing a different one on my Mac to see if an OH renderer elsewhere might solve the problem.  It didn’t.

 

So I upgraded to A+ 3 and use the DNLA output.  That does the trick and even sounds a little richer.

 

But I’d prefer to have Lumin available as controller with skipping esp when my Mac isn’t around, etc. 

 

just clarifying my specific set up and problem, in case @vortecjr takes an interest in these recent posts.  Thx.

You can easily check if your mR runs a BubbleUPnP Server process  by entering  http://192.168.178.2:58050/#main in a web browser. Just replace the IP address with that of your mR. Are you running the Lumin app on Android or iOS?

[sockpit]

I’m running only iOS stuff.  MacBook and iPad.  Lumin and Kazoo as controllers via Open Home renderer set up on the bubbleupnp server app that comes with and resides on the sonicorbiter software that runs on my mRendu.  

 

But i have also tried installing the bubbleupnp server on my MacBook, setting up the Open Home renderer there to see if the skipping might be caused by the mRs processor being overtaxed.  It didn’t matter.  Skipping occurs wherever bubbleupnp OH renderer resides. Usually on long pieces of music.

[rickca]

@sockpit if you think the skipping is a BubbleUPnP Server issue, have you tried contacting the developer @bubbleguuum on his forum

https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1118891

It's very active ... more than 1350 pages long!

[nbpf]

I have experienced three jumps to the next track (one to the end of a last track) over the last few hours and with no BubbleUPnP Server instance running on my LAN. Thus, I still suspect a bug in the upmpdcli-mediaserver interface to Qobuz. According to the upmpdcli documentation

 

This is based on the service API from the Kodi add-on, by Joachim Basmaison and Cyril Leclerc, with the upper-level code adapted from the Tidal add-on. The WEB API is not officially supported by Qobuz, and may just stop to work one day.

 

this is based on another interface. Thus, it is possible that the issues are caused by a software layer beneath BubbleUPnP Server and upmpdcli-mediaserver.

 

It would be interesting to know which non OpenHome renderer is lifted to an OpneHome by the BubbleUPnP Server running on the microRendu. @sockpit: if you can access the BubbleUPnP Server that runs on your microRendu via web interface, please have a look (in the "Media Renderers" tab) at which renderers are actually running on your device.

 

It is also possible that we are completely off track and that the issue is coming from a completely different direction, of course. I have now switched back to streaming Qobuz contents through the interface made available by the BubbleUPnP control point running on my Android mobile phone. I am going to test it for a few hours and report back. If no issues show up, I am going to open a ticket for upmpdcli-mediaserver.  

[sockpit]

3 hours ago, rickca said:

@sockpit if you think the skipping is a BubbleUPnP Server issue, have you tried contacting the developer @bubbleguuum on his forum

https://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1118891

It's very active ... more than 1350 pages long!

I have not tried that, only because I'm of the generation and work in a field that makes me such an amateur about computers that I cannot even follow some of the posts above.  It's all Greek to me as you can tell by my attempts to describe and isolate the issue.  @nbpf seems to know exactly how to formulate a ticket in such a way as the developer might be able to make sense of things.  He also seems inching toward doing so, which is generous of him.  What's curious to me is how little this problem has been reported at the Sonore forums to @vortecjr, which might be why he's letting us carry on like this solo . . .

[sockpit]

@nbpf said:  "It would be interesting to know which non OpenHome renderer is lifted to an OpneHome by the BubbleUPnP Server running on the microRendu. @sockpit: if you can access the BubbleUPnP Server that runs on your microRendu via web interface, please have a look (in the "Media Renderers" tab) at which renderers are actually running on your device."

 

Here is a snapshot of what you asked for (I think):

 

[nbpf]

11 hours ago, sockpit said:

@nbpf said:  "It would be interesting to know which non OpenHome renderer is lifted to an OpneHome by the BubbleUPnP Server running on the microRendu. @sockpit: if you can access the BubbleUPnP Server that runs on your microRendu via web interface, please have a look (in the "Media Renderers" tab) at which renderers are actually running on your device."

 

Here is a snapshot of what you asked for (I think):

 

Yes, thanks, that is what I meant. We still do not know what the rendu-009786 UPnP/DLNA server actually is. I thought it could be upmpdcli which would explain the fact that both you andI have run into the skipping track issue. However, it would not make any sense to create an OpenHome server on the top of upmpdcli because upmpdcli is already an OpenHome server. Finally, the question can only be answered by Sonore or by looking into the SonicOrbiter OS in more detail. I do not have an image of SonicOrbiter, thus that's it for the time being. I will open a upmpdcli-mediaserver ticket this evening, now heading to my office ... 

[Cebolla]

2 hours ago, nbpf said:

Yes, thanks, that is what I meant. We still do not know what the rendu-009786 UPnP/DLNA server actually is. I thought it could be upmpdcli which would explain the fact that both you andI have run into the skipping track issue. However, it would not make any sense to create an OpenHome server on the top of upmpdcli because upmpdcli is already an OpenHome server.

 

I think you meant to say UPnP/DLNA renderer and OpenHome renderer, rather than UPnP/DLNA server and OpenHome server.

 

Yes, that was what I said initially - why does Sonore recommend & even have an internal BubbleUPnP Server in its devices to provide OpenHome, if the renderer for its devices is upmpdcli?

 

Assuming you haven't already, one more thing you could try with upmpdcli (including testing for Qobuz track skipping) would be to configure it to start in standard UPnP only mode (so OpenHome off) and then use the BubbleUPnP Server to create an OpenHome renderer for upmpdcli's standard UPnP renderer. If Sonore are using upmpdcli, it would be in that configuration.

 

[davide256]

7 hours ago, Cebolla said:

 

I think you meant to say UPnP/DLNA renderer and OpenHome renderer, rather than UPnP/DLNA server and OpenHome server.

 

Yes, that was what I said initially - why does Sonore recommend & even have an internal BubbleUPnP Server in its devices to provide OpenHome, if the renderer for its devices is upmpdcli?

 

Assuming you haven't already, one more thing you could try with upmpdcli (including testing for Qobuz track skipping) would be to configure it to start in standard UPnP only mode (so OpenHome off) and then use the BubbleUPnP Server to create an OpenHome renderer for upmpdcli's standard UPnP renderer. If Sonore are using upmpdcli, it would be in that configuration.

 

Seems like a  false path to me that you are  troubleshooting what is not the recommended way by Sonore to use Qobuz  (Bubble UPNP) with the MicroRendu.

 

From the microRendu web page

 

" Supports Tidal and Qobuz lossless streaming in Squeezelite output mode and DLNA output mode "

 

Never had Qobuz but while I had a microRendu the MPD/DLNA option worked flawlessly for Kinsky/Kazoo/Lumin controllers if no local network problems existed

[nbpf]

10 hours ago, Cebolla said:

 

I think you meant to say UPnP/DLNA renderer and OpenHome renderer, rather than UPnP/DLNA server and OpenHome server.

 

Right, I meant to say renderer and I wrote server. Thanks for spotting the glitch! 

[nbpf]

10 hours ago, Cebolla said:

Yes, that was what I said initially - why does Sonore recommend & even have an internal BubbleUPnP Server in its devices to provide OpenHome, if the renderer for its devices is upmpdcli?

 

Assuming you haven't already, one more thing you could try with upmpdcli (including testing for Qobuz track skipping) would be to configure it to start in standard UPnP only mode (so OpenHome off) and then use the BubbleUPnP Server to create an OpenHome renderer for upmpdcli's standard UPnP renderer. If Sonore are using upmpdcli, it would be in that configuration.

 

I do not know Sonicorbiter and have no idea why Sonore would use BubbleUPnP server to create an OpenHome renderer from upmpdcli started in UPnP only mode. Perhaps they do not trust the OpenHome implementation of upmpdcli. Only Sonore can answer your question, I am afraid!

 

I could try your suggestion but notice that upmpdcli itself works flawlessly. It is the upmpdcli-qobuz interface that is responsible for the jumps. If I stream to upmpdcli using the Qobuz interface made available by the BubbleUPnP control point, I observe no jumps. Anyway, I have now opened a ticket:  https://opensourceprojects.eu/p/upmpdcli/tickets/11/. 

[nbpf]

2 hours ago, davide256 said:

Seems like a  false path to me that you are  troubleshooting what is not the recommended way by Sonore to use Qobuz  (Bubble UPNP) with the MicroRendu.

I think you are misunderstanding the problem: to the best of my understanding, Cebolla is not troubleshooting anything that is not recommended by Sonore. What we seem to know is that:

 

1) While streaming Qobuz contents to an ultraRendu, track skips are observed. The issue is independent of the control point used. This was @sockpit's original post and the head of this thread.

 

2) While streaming Qobuz contents to a Raspberry Pi running upmpdcli and the upmpdcli-qobuz interface to Qobuz, the same issue occurs. This was my first post in this thread. 

 

3) Sonore uses BubbleUPnP server to create an OpenHome renderer from a non-documented UPnP renderer.

 

I conjectured that the undocumented UPnP renderer running on the ultraRendu could be upmpdcli. Cebolla has observed that if the undocumented UPnP renderer was upmpdcli (started in "pure" UPnP mode), Sonore could easily have avoided running BubbleUPnP server on the ultraRendu by simply starting upmpdcli with OpenHome support. This is also the default.  

 

I am not a Rendu user but what is precisely not recommended by Sonore?

[davide256]

 read the manufacturers information. As  pasted above, Squeezelite and MPD/DLNA are named as supported for Qobuz use in the Sonicorbiter 2.5 Software section, Bubble UPNP is conspicuously not named as supported for Qobuz use. If a feature is not named as supported, then  dialogue should be  with the manufacturer.... you will likely discover the problem you are experiencing is why they don't support it. Note that microRendu and ultraRendu run the same Sonicorbiter 2.5 OS software

 

http://www.sonore.us/ultraRendu.html

 

 

 

[nbpf]

10 minutes ago, davide256 said:

 read the manufacturers information. As  pasted above, Squeezelite and MPD/DLNA are named as supported for Qobuz use in the Sonicorbiter 2.5 Software section, Bubble UPNP is conspicuously not named as supported for Qobuz use. If a feature is not named as supported, then  dialogue should be  with the manufacturer.... you will likely discover the problem you are experiencing is why they don't support it. Note that microRendu and ultraRendu run the same Sonicorbiter 2.5 OS software

 

http://www.sonore.us/ultraRendu.html

 

 

 

Do you mean Bubble UPnP Server or the Bubble UPnP control app? What do you think to be "not supported for Qobuz use"? The OP is using Sonicorbiter in Mode #3a DLNA output. There is nothing conspicuously wrong in doing so and "Tidal and Qobuz lossless streaming [are supported] in Squeezelite output mode and DLNA output mode". 

[sockpit]

I'd participate in this more if it wasn't over my technical head. 

 

This may clear up some misunderstandings immediately above?  

 

It is my understanding that those who you apple products need to add Bubbleupnp Open Home rendering function in order for the legitimate DLNA output on the Rendus to work.  With Android, that step isn't necessary.

 

Of course, @vortecjr could clear this up in less than 140 characters and without disclosing any trade secrets, I would guess

 

 

 

[davide256]

1 hour ago, nbpf said:

Do you mean Bubble UPnP Server or the Bubble UPnP control app? What do you think to be "not supported for Qobuz use"? The OP is using Sonicorbiter in Mode #3a DLNA output. There is nothing conspicuously wrong in doing so and "Tidal and Qobuz lossless streaming [are supported] in Squeezelite output mode and DLNA output mode". 

Then if this is in the supported MPD/DLNA mode for xRendu (not the  Bubble UPNP server mode), time to go to Sonore's support page and ask directly.  Jesus is very good about addressing problems, if the problem can be duplicated, I'm sure Sonore will address it. I also see that a newer version of Sonicorbiter (2.6) is now available, it always good practice to update to the latest stable software  to verify that the problem hasn't been resolved in the most recent bug fixes.

 

http://www.vortexbox.com.au/home.html

[sockpit]

Thanks.  I'm up to date, and I've asked Jesus about it more than once at/in Sonore's support forum.  I've even emailed him directly about it.  He suggested I try using a Bubbleupnp OH renderer on my computer instead of the one on the mR—which didn't do the trick.  Always aware it could just be my network and that Jesus was being reasonable not to spend a ton of time on me, I started this thread outside Sonoreville to see if anyone knowledgeable about networks and streaming might have experienced my issue or have suggestions on how to isolate it.

 

The use of A+ 3 has so far been the best workaround, but it solves the problem by not solving it, but requiring another machine to be running when I listen.

 

I'm not trying to suggest Jesus is not generally responsive--although I would think this thread might interest him now that there is at least one more case/person involved.  The technicalities above are over my head, and it’s clear if things aren’t described with perfect accuracy the result is confusion. 

 

I am sure, however, that my use of Lumin, MPD DNLA output, BubbleUPNP "server" in OH rendering (require by my use of an iOS product as my controller device) is exactly what Sonore wants me to be doing.  Why it skips for me and not the hundreds of others out there is the 64K question. 

 

Thanks to all who have tried to help me.

 

[Cebolla]

16 hours ago, davide256 said:

Seems like a  false path to me that you are  troubleshooting what is not the recommended way by Sonore to use Qobuz  (Bubble UPNP) with the MicroRendu.

 

From the microRendu web page

 

" Supports Tidal and Qobuz lossless streaming in Squeezelite output mode and DLNA output mode "

 

Never had Qobuz but while I had a microRendu the MPD/DLNA option worked flawlessly for Kinsky/Kazoo/Lumin controllers if no local network problems existed

10 hours ago, davide256 said:

Then if this is in the supported MPD/DLNA mode for xRendu (not the  Bubble UPNP server mode)

 

I think it's best you re-read the relevant bits of the thread - as @nbpf has pointed out, you appear to have misunderstood something, David. 

 

BTW, you've likely also forgotten how you actually got the microRendu to work with OpenHome only controllers, like BubbleDS Next, Lumin & Linn Kazoo (though not necessarily Kinsky and the BubbleUPnP Android app, as they also support standard UPnP/DLNA). Creating an OpenHome renderer for the Sonicorbiter running devices, via the BubbleUPnP Server, is precisely what Sonore do recommend.

 

Ironically, a few years ago I actually asked Sonore's Jesus Rodriguez if he had considered the BubbleUPnP Server to provide OpenHome for his devices, especially as the BubbleUPnP Server had just been updated to support gapless playback & would therefore have added the OpenHome controllers to the Sonore recommended gapless controllers list. He felt at the time that his users were possibly not advanced enough to configure it - needless to say he soon changed his mind!

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/17460-need-advise-on-new-streamer/?do=findComment&comment=298255

 

[Cebolla]

14 hours ago, nbpf said:

I could try your suggestion but notice that upmpdcli itself works flawlessly. It is the upmpdcli-qobuz interface that is responsible for the jumps. If I stream to upmpdcli using the Qobuz interface made available by the BubbleUPnP control point, I observe no jumps. Anyway, I have now opened a ticket:  https://opensourceprojects.eu/p/upmpdcli/tickets/11/. 

 

The thinking behind my suggestion was that @sockpit's microRendu skips with the BubbleUPnP Server, so that was assumed as being responsible for the jumps. Therefore not what you've actually found with your current upmpdcli tests with the BubbleUPnP Server's OpenHome renderer providing Qobuz and upmpdcli configured with its own OpenHome renderer still running.

 

I just wanted to eliminate the (admittedly small) posibility of any faulty shared memory function on the machine running upmpdcli (eg from a UPnP code library) being corrected by side effect, because it is being referenced by two OpenHome renderer emulator processes at the same time (ie, upmpdcli's own and the BubbleUPnP Server's), or even the upmpdcli OpenHome renderer and the BubbleUPnP Android app's control point at the same time.

[Cebolla]

17 hours ago, nbpf said:

I do not know Sonicorbiter and have no idea why Sonore would use BubbleUPnP server to create an OpenHome renderer from upmpdcli started in UPnP only mode. Perhaps they do not trust the OpenHome implementation of upmpdcli. Only Sonore can answer your question, I am afraid!

 

Just found this, in the Sonicorbiter Sonore sponsored thread -  the closest I've seen Jesus Rodriguez state that Sonicorbiter uses upmpdcli (perhaps?):

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/26374-sonore-sonicorbiter-se/?page=6&tab=comments#comment-500746

 

Jesus also says why he recommends using the BubbleUPnP Server - versions of upmpdcli prior to 1.2.14 (2017-05-19) had a problem with the OpenHome renderer not appearing in the Linn Kazoo app:

http://www.lesbonscomptes.com/upmpdcli/#news

http://www.lesbonscomptes.com/upmpdcli/releases.html#_upmpdcli_1_2_14

 

[rodrigaj]

On 5/7/2018 at 1:08 AM, nbpf said:

... it would not make any sense to create an OpenHome server on the top of upmpdcli because upmpdcli is already an OpenHome server. Finally, the question can only be answered by Sonore or by looking into the SonicOrbiter OS in more detail....

I checked my Lumin App without Bubbleupnp Server running either on my NAS or on my ultraRendu. The ultraRendu was recognized by Lumin App. That supports your conjecture that SonicOrbiter OS is running upmpdcli.

 

The difference between that and the Lumin App running with Bubbleupnp server is that neither Tidal nor Qobuz can be accessed without Bubbleupnp server running.

 

The SonicOrbiter OS - assuming that is running upmpdcli - is running without the upmpdcli-qobuz interface that you opened a ticket for.

 

That is why Sonore has you run Bubbleupnp server - in order that apps such as Lumin App can give full integration of local music libraries stored on a NAS with Tidal or Qobuz.

 

As to why SonicOrbiter OS was implemented like that, as you say, only Sonore can answer. It does make for a curious user experience on the Lumin App: Two instances of the same renderer can be always be seen in the "My Lumin" screen: one with Tidal/Qobuz integration and the other without. If you want Tidal/Qobuz integration using a Sonore ultraRendu or microRendu you will always be running two OpenHome servers.

 

 

[Cebolla]

Wow, so the Sonicorbiter OS's upmpdcli OpenHome renderer setting is switched on - I'd assumed if Sonicorbiter was using upmpdcli, OpenHome would have been disabled, precisely to avoid having two OpenHome renderers when using the BubbleUPnP Server!

 

Also, if the the Sonicorbiter OS's upmpdcli's OpenHome renderer still isn't showing on Linn Kazoo, it would need to be a version prior to 1.2.14.

 

@davide256, my apologies - looks like you may indeed have controlled the microRendu with the Lumin app without the BubbleUPnP Server, after all!

[davide256]

1 hour ago, Cebolla said:

Wow, so the Sonicorbiter OS's upmpdcli OpenHome renderer setting is switched on - I'd assumed if Sonicorbiter was using upmpdcli, OpenHome would have been disabled, precisely to avoid having two OpenHome renderers when using the BubbleUPnP Server!

 

Also, if the the Sonicorbiter OS's upmpdcli's OpenHome renderer still isn't showing on Linn Kazoo, it would need to be a version prior to 1.2.14.

 

@davide256, my apologies - looks like you may indeed have controlled the microRendu with the Lumin app without the BubbleUPnP Server, after all!

I can safely say that I never enabled Bubble UPNP the entire time I had a MR. One question... if the MPD/DLNA mode + Bubble UPNP server isn't working, can the OP alternatively try the Squeezelite mode also indicated as supported by Sonore?