Innuos Zenith SE MkII

[Patatorz]

9 hours ago, KingRex said:

I want to hear the txusb result.  Are you adding a master clock.  

 

I have a Mojo server that is not much different than the Innuos items.  I am getting amazing sound, confirmed by 2 industry professionals via USB to my DAC.  Still curious any additional heights it could go.  

 

My point per Sonore Signature is they say its their best.  Im just curious to know.  Not going to sell my unit, its to good. 

I tested the micro rendu in v1.4b with the uptone lps1 and 2.5 software version. Zenith and sonore pointing to a Roon Server. The biggest difference is linked to the sound stages much more defined on the zenith SE. on difficult records (Rodrigo and Gabriella / tamacun on the live ok Tokyo) I would even say that it is very difficult on the sonore microrendu. But it is not’the Sonore Signature SE....

[BigAlMc]

7 hours ago, austinpop said:

I know you reject my POV on this, but I will say say this again. There are no axioms, or self-evident truths, in computer audio. If there's one thing I've learned, it is that!

 

How dare you sir! I demand my honour. Pick your weapon, dagger or pistol, and we shall dual to an honourable death at ten paces! 

 

Rajiv - I'm sure you know that I respect your opinion and that you're one of my go-to experts when I have questions. 

 

I don't "reject your POV" here and on the posts you are referring to I simply meant that for Innuos and most of the SE customer base I would imagine that they are spending such a hefty amount of cash in the hope that they are done. Done in terms of a top notch server that doesn't need an end point to mitigate its weaknesses or an external server to reduce its role to that of NAA. 

 

That was certainly the attraction in my case. 

 

Innuos in turn market it as a "source". 

 

Do I accept that it could be further enhanced to support more of an NAA role. Yes of course. And for those with deep enough pockets to wish to do so then fair play. 

 

Do I accept there are no absolutes and many ways to achieve sonic nirvana. Yup. Absolutely! 

 

Personally, if I were wedded to the endpoint model I'd buy the MKII for 2.3 grand and spend the change on a Sonore SSR or a DCS network bridge. I saw that Roy experimented with great results on precisely this combo. But it's a bit rich for my pockets. 

 

I agree that there are no self evident truths or absolutes in this game. And I am very open to changing direction and experimentation. As you know I recently added a TX-USBultra to my arsenal based on user feedback including your review. 

 

But there are more obvious use-cases and business models. If Innuos wish to add further NAA support then I'll be happy with that. But it's their perogative as it's probably a niche use-case. Your post seemed like you felt Nuno was being inflexible re your NAA suggestions. I simply meant I see his perspective and tend to agree with it. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[BigAlMc]

Oh I forgot to add re the whole NAA thing. I haven't done strict tests or tried A-B-ing the same tracks but I'm feeling that Tidal is sounding better than my locally stored FLAC files and I would not expect this to be the case. 

 

Streaming Tidal via ordinary consumer router, an Aqvox SE switch (so excellent clocking there) and Roon or LMS on the Zenith SE seems to be sounding like it has more timbre or something. Not that FLAC is sounding bad. Far from it. Am just loving the Tidal. Need to do some critical listening to see if I am imagining this or not. 

 

Not quite an NAA mode but still using the SE to play music held elsewhere. 

 

Can't today tho as on my way to the Bristol Sound and Vision show (one of the UKs biggest hifi events) to hopefully see and hear some exciting kit. 

[BigAlMc]

7 hours ago, KingRex said:

Well put.  I totally agree. I get frustrated when dealers get on these threads and bash topology other than their's, then claim superiority to all.  Such rubbish.  We are all learning and getting better results all the time. 

 

Hi KingRex, 

 

Is that directed at me? I'm not a dealer dude. I'm an audiophile on a journey. Like many others here. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[KingRex]

6 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Hi KingRex, 

 

Is that directed at me? I'm not a dealer dude. I'm an audiophile on a journey. Like many others here. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

Not at all directed at you al. I got a load of S--t on Audiinirvana when I posted amazing results of my server there.  A Zenith salesman started equating my results to his gear and his was better because bla bla bla.    I also get all the Sonore guys with their Ethernet only crap.  Any way seems to work very well if you do it right.   My system is USB and just fine. 

[BigAlMc]

Ah ok. Just wondered as seemed to be in response to Austinpop responding to me. 

 

Yeah I hear you mate. Manufacturers and dealers are welcome when they're sharing expertise. Far less so when just furthering their agenda. 

[BigAlMc]

@KingRex - apologies if I missed it but what is your system? If you don't mind sharing or describing.

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[KingRex]

Mojo Audio Deja Vu (win server 2016, AO, HQ & Roon. )  server via Acoustic Revive USB cable to RT Audio Ultra USB Orpheus DAC, via Gary Ko Genesis interconnect to First Sound Mark 3S Ultra preamp via an ok RCA single ended cable (getting replaced) to Altec Lansing 1570b monoblocks modded by Tom Tutay via Inakustik Ref Air LS 2404 spraker cables to Pure Audio Project Trio 10 speakers.  Currently modding speakers by changing choke from iron core to air core and changing duel woofers from parallel to series topology.  

Netgear switch at network rack. Cat 6 generic cable.  Internally stored music is much better than from my Synoligy NAS or Tidal.  Adrian with Thelinearsolution is going to bring his switch over for me to try in the next week. 

[BigAlMc]

I feel like I'm running the risk of monopolising this thread but! 

 

So I just attended the Bristol show (one of the UKs longest running [30± years] and bigger hifi shows). Was good and I'll post some thoughts on the general forum. But for this thread:

 

I had the pleasure of meeting Nuno Vitorino and Anthony (didn't catch surname) of Innuos. Both were great and very helpful.

 

Nuno was very generous and gave me 30 mins of his time on what's clearly a very busy weekend for them. Lovely chap and clearly very knowledgeable. Whilst chatting he mentioned that he's discussed aspects with Roy and Rajiv and it was humbling to be in such hallowed company 

 

Amongst other things he said that people assume the Sean Jacobs power supply is the main reason for the SEs stellar SQ but its also just attention to detail. I won't do his description justice but it included:

 

*not using connectors and having everything painstakingly soldered using high quality (silver I think he said) solder.

 

*The quality and positioning of the three feet. One under the PSU, one under the SSD. And one, er, somewhere else. (sorry I forget!) 

 

*Vibration dampening throughout but including the SSD. 

 

*The BIOS kernel and software in general. He remarked that in his opinion some people spend too much attention to hardware and not enough on software. 

 

I asked whether they had any plans for a successor to the SE given its limited 100 unit production run and the rave reviews. He smiled and asked me what I thought. But wouldn't be drawn further other than saying that they were "always innovating" and were looking into both trickle down of technology into a potential in-between the MKII & SE model,  as well as whether the bar could be raised on the SE. Watch this space I guess. 

 

Finally, I asked whether they had any plans to close the gap between the LMS players SQ and the Roon servers SQ but it seems that this would require more collaboration with Roon. Reading between the lines I think SE & MKII owners would need to pressure Roon to work on this. 

 

Anyway - Boulder, Colorado is on my list sometime to meet the PS Audio guys. Meeting Nuno and Anthony today was an unexpected surprise and has made my day! 

 

Over and out - Alan in Bristol! 

 

[BigAlMc]

23 minutes ago, KingRex said:

Mojo Audio Deja Vu (win server 2016, AO, HQ & Roon. )  server via Acoustic Revive USB cable to RT Audio Ultra USB Orpheus DAC, via Gary Ko Genesis interconnect to First Sound Mark 3S Ultra preamp via an ok RCA single ended cable (getting replaced) to Altec Lansing 1570b monoblocks modded by Tom Tutay via Inakustik Ref Air LS 2404 spraker cables to Pure Audio Project Trio 10 speakers.  Currently modding speakers by changing choke from iron core to air core and changing duel woofers from parallel to series topology.  

Netgear switch at network rack. Cat 6 generic cable.  Internally stored music is much better than from my Synoligy NAS or Tidal.  Adrian with Thelinearsolution is going to bring his switch over for me to try in the next week. 

 

Thanks KingRex - I'm gonna have to spend some time on Google to understand your stack! Sounds like a great effort tho. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[Patatorz]

Great feedback : Thanks !!!

[KingRex]

In short the server has a very fine PS. Maybe one of the best?  Ben with mojo has spent 20 years refining it.   The DAC has a transformer output with galvonic isolated USB input.  The preamp has a stepped ladder attenuator and massive amounts of capacitance.  The amps are 135 Watt triode 811a based push pull. Speakers are open baffle. 

[LTG2010]

6 minutes ago, KingRex said:

In short the server has a very fine PS. Maybe one of the best?

Certainly is up there with the best, if its based on their illuminati. Large choke input, Belleson super reg circuit, Mundorf caps. Not surprised the server is as good as you say.

[austinpop]

7 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

How dare you sir! I demand my honour. Pick your weapon, dagger or pistol, and we shall dual to an honourable death at ten paces! 

 

Rajiv - I'm sure you know that I respect your opinion and that you're one of my go-to experts when I have questions. 

 

I don't "reject your POV" here and on the posts you are referring to I simply meant that for Innuos and most of the SE customer base I would imagine that they are spending such a hefty amount of cash in the hope that they are done. Done in terms of a top notch server that doesn't need an end point to mitigate its weaknesses or an external server to reduce its role to that of NAA. 

 

That was certainly the attraction in my case. 

 

Innuos in turn market it as a "source". 

 

Do I accept that it could be further enhanced to support more of an NAA role. Yes of course. And for those with deep enough pockets to wish to do so then fair play. 

 

Do I accept there are no absolutes and many ways to achieve sonic nirvana. Yup. Absolutely! 

 

Personally, if I were wedded to the endpoint model I'd buy the MKII for 2.3 grand and spend the change on a Sonore SSR or a DCS network bridge. I saw that Roy experimented with great results on precisely this combo. But it's a bit rich for my pockets. 

 

I agree that there are no self evident truths or absolutes in this game. And I am very open to changing direction and experimentation. As you know I recently added a TX-USBultra to my arsenal based on user feedback including your review. 

 

But there are more obvious use-cases and business models. If Innuos wish to add further NAA support then I'll be happy with that. But it's their perogative as it's probably a niche use-case. Your post seemed like you felt Nuno was being inflexible re your NAA suggestions. I simply meant I see his perspective and tend to agree with it. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

 

 No worries, Alan. I regret my choice of words.

 

Here's what's interesting to me. Based on my experiments running Roon locally vs. on my Windows 10 box, this is how I would assign the benefit realized by the Zenith SE:

1. due to the HW as audio USB source: 85%
2. due to the optimized SW renderer - i.e. squeezelite: 10%
3. due to the local music server (LMS or Roon Core): 5%

I find that the bulk of the benefit of the SE comes from its HW design and its position in the chain as the music USB source. Whether the server software happens to run on the same box vs. a remote one seems to be of relatively small importance.

 

Caveat: this is with properly shunted and reclocked switches before the SE and the tX-USBultra after the SE.

 

So I take your point that from Innuos's perspective, given that they are going for a simple technophobe-friendly experience, it is much easier to market the device as a music server.

 

7 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Streaming Tidal via ordinary consumer router, an Aqvox SE switch (so excellent clocking there) and Roon or LMS on the Zenith SE seems to be sounding like it has more timbre or something. Not that FLAC is sounding bad. Far from it. Am just loving the Tidal. Need to do some critical listening to see if I am imagining this or not. 

 

 

This does not surprise me, given you have a switch with an excellent clock, as this has been my experience as well. With this level of network quality, replace "Tidal" with "NAS," or one step further, remote Roon Core, and you'll see where I'm coming from.

 

Now as regards NAA specifically. I've had further discussions with Nuno. He is happy to let me have a private build with NAA to try out. He's not opposed to the renderer function in abstract. The main issue for him is support. And I completely understand his position. NAA at least is a singular implementation, and well supported by Signalyst.

 

My failed experiment with A+ and UPnP renderer plugin of LMS illustrates the fact that UPnP renderers in particular are rather fussy, and he doesn't want to take on the support nightmare.

 

The other area he is leery is native DSD support. I gather this is a fraught issue, with Linux drivers in particular. From what I gather, if you want to run HQPlayer upsampled to DSD512, your best option is a Windows direct attach or a WIndows NAA.

 

For someone reading this who doesn't know my system, I do not need NAA and massive upsampling in my system. If I did, the SE would not be the right choice for me. Like Alan, I see the SE as quite an expensive investment, and so I am thinking ahead to what I might need in the future. What if my next candidate DAC does benefit from DSD512 upsampling?

[KingRex]

I have last years Illuminati.  Not the most current version. Duel PS. One feeds the MB and the other the SSD's.  Yes both the OS and storage.  Would be nice to have 3 PS to keep the OS on its own. I hope Thelinearsolution switch really steps up the Ethernet so I don't have to use the internal storage. If it rises to the same quality sound as internal storage, I could disconnect the internal storage SSD to reduce noise to my OS SSD.  

[austinpop]

30 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

I feel like I'm running the risk of monopolising this thread but! 

 

So I just attended the Bristol show (one of the UKs longest running [30± years] and bigger hifi shows). Was good and I'll post some thoughts on the general forum. But for this thread:

 

I had the pleasure of meeting Nuno Vitorino and Anthony (didn't catch surname) of Innuos. Both were great and very helpful.

 

Nuno was very generous and gave me 30 mins of his time on what's clearly a very busy weekend for them. Lovely chap and clearly very knowledgeable. Whilst chatting he mentioned that he's discussed aspects with Roy and Rajiv and it was humbling to be in such hallowed company 

 

Amongst other things he said that people assume the Sean Jacobs power supply is the main reason for the SEs stellar SQ but its also just attention to detail. I won't do his description justice but it included:

 

*not using connectors and having everything painstakingly soldered using high quality (silver I think he said) solder.

 

*The quality and positioning of the three feet. One under the PSU, one under the SSD. And one, er, somewhere else. (sorry I forget!) 

 

*Vibration dampening throughout but including the SSD. 

 

*The BIOS kernel and software in general. He remarked that in his opinion some people spend too much attention to hardware and not enough on software. 

 

I asked whether they had any plans for a successor to the SE given its limited 100 unit production run and the rave reviews. He smiled and asked me what I thought. But wouldn't be drawn further other than saying that they were "always innovating" and were looking into both trickle down of technology into a potential in-between the MKII & SE model,  as well as whether the bar could be raised on the SE. Watch this space I guess. 

 

Finally, I asked whether they had any plans to close the gap between the LMS players SQ and the Roon servers SQ but it seems that this would require more collaboration with Roon. Reading between the lines I think SE & MKII owners would need to pressure Roon to work on this. 

 

Anyway - Boulder, Colorado is on my list sometime to meet the PS Audio guys. Meeting Nuno and Anthony today was an unexpected surprise and has made my day! 

 

Over and out - Alan in Bristol! 

 

 

How funny that I was writing my post while this one came in. It's great you got to meet and hang out with Nuno. 

 

I am looking forward to meeting him and other manufacturers at Axpona in April.

[austinpop]

@BigAlMc and others who want to try this...

 

I can't remember if you use Roon or LMS, but in either case, try this experiment for yourself.

 

Baseline: server (LMS/Roon) on SE, music on local SSD

Experiment 1: server on SE, music on network - say a NAS, or just on a network share on some remote computer in your house

Experiment 2: server on a remote computer (no optimizations necessary) on network, music on network.

 

Listen and report back how much, subjectively, better the baseline sounds compared to experiments 1 and 2.

[KingRex]

2 minutes ago, austinpop said:

@BigAlMc and others who want to try this...

 

I can't remember if you use Roon or LMS, but in either case, try this experiment for yourself.

 

Baseline: server (LMS/Roon) on SE, music on local SSD

Experiment 1: server on SE, music on network - say a NAS, or just on a network share on some remote computer in your house

Experiment 2: server on a remote computer (no optimizations necessary) on network, music on network.

 

Listen and report back how much, subjectively, better the baseline sounds compared to experiments 1 and 2.

I have done some of the experiment as above with my Mojo server.  Right now internal storage is quite a bit better than NAS or Tidal.

 

I have also set my server up with Roon Server on my server, and used Roon bridge to operate the server from a remote Ethernet connected computer.  The results were pretty dramatic.  The presentation is much more full. Far more body.  I am not sure about the sound stage size or if I lost any top end.  I will say I do not use this topology as it may be a little to much? ????  I just find myself more drawn to having the server setup per baseline. 

[KingRex]

Call me crazy but do any of you have your server /DAC on audio isolation feet.  I made my own using small acrylic blocks with a dimple I drilled in the top, then a stone bead placed in the dimple with a piece of felt at the bottom of the stack.  Cost about $2 each to make. Lets say $10 per set of 3.  They make a big difference in sound stage and imaging. It takes a little bloat out of my system and the music is more relaxed and easy to listen to.  

[rickca]

3 hours ago, KingRex said:

Mojo Audio Deja Vu

Looks very nice, but the upgrades are incredibly overpriced.  This is probably true on all audiophile servers. 

Examples:   

JCAT USB Card FEMTO/JCAT NET Card FEMTO are $750 each ($509 from highend-audiopc.com)

1TB Samsung 850 Pro is $850 (retail is about $425)

2TB Samsung 850 Pro is $1350 (retail is under $900)

[LTG2010]

5 minutes ago, rickca said:

Looks very nice, but the upgrades are incredibly overpriced.  This is probably true on all audiophile servers. 

Similar with Zenith jumps £1600 when you opt for 4tb in lieu of 2tb SSD. Saw a 4tb new samsung 850 pro sell for £623 on ebay a couple of weeks ago. One of the good thing about DIY.

[rickca]

21 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

Saw a 4tb new samsung 850 pro sell for £623 on ebay a couple of weeks ago.

That is most likely a fraudulent listing.  Retail from reputable stores is currently about $1350.

[LTG2010]

5 minutes ago, rickca said:

That is most likely a fraudulent listing.  Retail from reputable stores is currently about $1350.

More likely old stock the seller had a few on sale and positive feedback from previous sales all sold around £650. Theres one now for £775 and open to offers, yes they retail at the price you quote and most sell on ebay around that price. Manufacturers would get them at trade price but they do need to make a profit as well as the ditributors and shops.

[KingRex]

I like to support a small company, in that he needs to earn a living. That's not too much to pay when you figure all the time that  oes into selecting all the materials for the product. I know he has experimented with all sorts of drives motherboards Ram CPU. His next latest and greatest has a 7 watt motherboard. The case is supposed to be improved too. There's all that time that goes into research and development he needs money for also.

[Patatorz]

Hello, just to let you know incompatibility between Zentih MK2 and USB/SPDIF interface Mutec MC3+ USB. Both company are aware but seems difficult to find some solutions.

Incompatibility depends also on the USB cable used. Some solutions could come from 5V USB power supply from AQvox for example. Innuos mentioned the ifi Purifier 2 but did not test.