Innuos Zenith SE MkII

[austinpop]

30 minutes ago, One and a half said:

A music server should be around for a long time, and a music libary does tend to go. At the moment, the disk size of my library is just under 3TB, 2.46TB. An allowance of at least double for the future should be taken into account. The largest drive Innuous offers is 4TB, that won't fit plans. Roon has the ability to collect data from multiple shares on the network or attached drives to the server. From really early days, Gordon Rankin recommended to store music files on a 'large pipe' as he called it, PCIe is such a pipe. Ethernet, USB Drives are smaller pipes, the main problem with them is extra noise transmissions and reliability of portable drives for 24/7 use in plastic enclosures that cook drives rather than cool them.

 

 

Fair enough, but the product clearly states the capacity offered (2 or 4TB). Obviously, it does not meet your requirements. 

 

That said, I find that the SQ difference between playing local files off of SSD, and pulling from my NAS to be very very small. Of course, this is with the assistance of my sCLK-EX reclocked switch, so I may yet revert to just using my NAS for storage.

[rickca]

I am running 1.3.2 and I'm not having any problem with iPeng9 and my library, but it's a lot smaller than yours. 

[Patatorz]

I will receive it tomorrow and the seller told me that he installed the latest version. I will check for the 1.3.2

 

 

[Advieira]

On 2/3/2018 at 9:25 PM, austinpop said:

Of course, this is with the assistance of my sCLK-EX reclocked switch, so I may yet revert to just using my NAS for storage.

 

Austin,  the modded switch can be connected to TX-USBUltra rather than SMS-200ultra? I mean, SQ would be the same as it is connected to SMS200Ultra?

 

The chain is: PC > SMS200Ultra > Tx-USBUltra (modded)

 

[austinpop]

21 minutes ago, Advieira said:

 

Austin,  the modded switch can be connected to TX-USBUltra rather than SMS-200ultra? I mean, SQ would be the same as it is connected to SMS200Ultra?

 

The chain is: PC > SMS200Ultra > Tx-USBUltra (modded)

 

 

Be careful with your terms here. Yes, the modded switch can be "connected" to the tX-USBultra, in the context of clocks - i.e. the tX-USBultra has been modded to expose a 25MHz clock via an SMB port on the back panel, and this is what you would connect to the modded switch, using an SMB clock cable.

 

Not  "connected" in the sense of Ethernet, obviously.

[Advieira]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Be careful with your terms here. Yes, the modded switch can be "connected" to the tX-USBultra, in the context of clocks - i.e. the tX-USBultra has been modded to expose a 25MHz clock via an SMB port on the back panel, and this is what you would connect to the modded switch, using an SMB clock cable.

 

Not  "connected" in the sense of Ethernet, obviously.

 

Should be gain in SQ if the switch is connected (SMB) to both Ultras? Or only one is enough?

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, Advieira said:

 

Should be gain in SQ if the switch is connected (SMB) to both Ultras? Or only one is enough?

 

Please make sure you understand the design here. The switch is being modded such that the internal clock is being disabled, and the clocking signal is fed from one, exactly one, sCLK-EX board resident in an Ultra device. You and SOtM decide what that is. For most switches, that is a 25MHz clock.

 

So there is no meaningful way to connect the SMB from the switch to more than one Ultra device. 

 

 

[mikicasellas]

Has anybody done any comparison regarding SQ between the Zenith vs the dCS Bridge?

 

 

[Advieira]

Looking Innuos MkII inside, it has nothing impressive.

It's only a Good LPSU, connected in a J1900 Motherboard. No Clock board. No clocked Ethernet card. No USB regenerator card.

 

Is that it? Only a good LPSU and good software optmization to create all this fuss around it?

I hardly can imagine how it can be better than C.A.P.S. v3...

[seeteeyou]

3 hours ago, mikicasellas said:

Has anybody done any comparison regarding SQ between the Zenith vs the dCS Bridge?

 

@romaz did that several months ago

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box.787020/page-69#post-13801299

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/review-comparison-of-5-high-end-digital-music-servers-aurender-n10-cad-cat-server-totaldac-d1-server-auralic-aries-audiophile-vortex-box.787020/page-70#post-13804310

[austinpop]

BTW - I have been struggling with an inability to mount the Zenith SE shared folders on my Windows 10 machine. I assumed it was some Netbios issue, but after it persisted through  multiple reboots, I decided to get to the bottom of this. 

 

The answer is here: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4046019/guest-access-smb2-disabled-by-default-in-windows-10-server-2016

 

 In Windows 10 Fall Creators Update and Windows Server version 1709, the SMB2 client no longer allows the following actions:

• Guest account access to a remote server

The fix is to edit the Local Group Policy:

• Computer configuration\administrative templates\network\Lanman Workstation\"Enable insecure guest logons" - set to ON

Bingo!

[Patatorz]

On 02/02/2018 at 10:09 PM, austinpop said:

 

I wanted to come back and update this advice after having finally done this successfully. Here are my updated instructions.

 

Before starting, contact Nuno at Innuos support and have him do a remote session to unlock the local SSD as a selectable storage location in Roon. This is very important!

 

Now, there are 3 logical stages to the migration:

1. Physically copy music over to the Zenith SE's internal SSD
2. Bring up Roon correctly on the Zenith SE, by restoring from a database backup of your existing Core
3. Fixup the music location under Roon > Settings > Storage

Do the following first, on your existing Roon Core server:

• Make a backup to something you can access on the SE - a network share, or even a USB stick.
• Go to Roon > Settings > Storage and note down where your music is currently stored.
• Let's assume your current Roon Core is on a Windows machine named WinRoon, and your music is in E:\MyMusicLib

Let't take each in turn.

1. Physically copy music over to the Zenith SE's internal SSD
   • The key pitfall here is to avoid the Auto-Import at all costs!
   • On the machine WinRoon, open the Zenith network share, and copy the folder E:\MyMusicLib over to the Music folder on the Zenith.
   • Note: once this completes, the full path to your music folder in the SE is /storage/Music/MyMusicLib
2. Bring up Roon correctly on the Zenith SE, by restoring from a database backup of your existing Core
   • See https://kb.roonlabs.com/Migration
   • It's really useful to do it this way
   • The key is to select "Restore from backup" on the Roon login screen
3. Fixup the music location under Roon > Settings > Storage
   • You'll see the previous location you had there - [E:] MyMusicLib. Obviously, it's meaningless on the Zenith.
   • Click on the 3 vertical dots next to this location, and select Edit.
   • On the next screen, hit Browse
   • Now navigate to your music on the local SSD. That will be at /storage/Music/MyMusicLib
   • Select, and save. At this point, you'll see Roon scanning your files
4. Verify everything works. In my case, it worked perfectly. My library looked exactly as it had, and all my playlists, play counts, Date Added etc were all as before.

The real trick to this is to get Nuno to unlock the SSD in Roon, so you can actually Edit your existing storage location, and change the location by browsing to /storage/Music/MyMusicLib. The current default of just having Music be a non-navigable location in Roon does not work well. There is a difference between editing your existing music storage location, rather than disabling it, and enabling another location.

 

I'm going to point Nuno to this post and ask him to consider providing a navigable storage option in Roon in future updates of their system.

 

Hello AustinPop, I plan to go through your tutorial today for Roon as I use today a Roon core on another Linux machine.

My problem is when I go through windows explorer and look for the zenith, I type the il address of the zenith but it request a login and password to access. Would you know what I’ve done wrong ?

[monteverdi]

I got a standard Zenith II and love how it sounds but importing music is not as trouble free as I expected. For ripping CDs I am using the assisted mode and it works fairly straightforward with rock and pop but metadata are pretty messed up with classical which is 50% of my CDs. Very often the composer is in the artist field and sometimes the artists are missing. So it requires correcting the metadata before ripping. About 10% of the classical CDs I tried had completely wrong metadata and cover often from an album with some music in common but different label, performer, date. iTunes could find all the correct metadata and cover. I wonder if that is an Innuos specific problem or just the standard behavior of music servers and the data bases they use. 

[Patatorz]

It is Not linked to innuos. Even Roon that have a strong meta engine is facing some issues in front of classical music for example...

i has been the same for me with good softwares like dbpoweramp/cd writer, and probably because they are using the same database. For sure something to improve.

 

 

[Patatorz]

I followed AustinPop recommendations for Roon installation. I went to the topic where i can not point the storage on a folder diferent from the "MUSIC" one on the internal SSD. I think it is linked to what you said, @austinpop , about unlocking the drive. 

 

I tried to map from roon storage option to a shared network on a NAS. No issue to point to this folder, but the Roon server of the Zenith is restarting every 10s as it can not accommodate the mapping (i removed the audio analysis in background). Did somebody experienced this problem ?

 

I have no issue with a PC computer running another Roon Server on the same PC to run such mapping to a shared folder

 

Best Regards 

[Patatorz]

11 hours ago, Patatorz said:

I followed AustinPop recommendations for Roon installation. I went to the topic where i can not point the storage on a folder diferent from the "MUSIC" one on the internal SSD. I think it is linked to what you said, @austinpop , about unlocking the drive. 

 

I tried to map from roon storage option to a shared network on a NAS. No issue to point to this folder, but the Roon server of the Zenith is restarting every 10s as it can not accommodate the mapping (i removed the audio analysis in background). Did somebody experienced this problem ?

 

I have no issue with a PC computer running another Roon Server on the same PC to run such mapping to a shared folder

 

Best Regards 

I quote myself. I read another time the recommendations of AustinPop and understood that I made something wrong. In fact, after restoring a library backup, instead of editing the locations of the files in the storage parameters in Roon, I deleted the location of the previous library and created new location on shared folder on the network. In this case it does not work and drive the Roon server to check files for 10 seconds before crashing and restarting. 

Editing the locations and pointing to the shared folder on the network prevents from these crashing...

 

My small latest issue on Roon is to have Roon unlocked in order I can select from Roon storage options not the music folder but the one I created under music.

 

I use a spdif/usb interface (Mutec MC3+ USB) as my DAC is not usb compatible. Confirmed by Innuos, when using the Zenith as player, the Zenith and the mutec controllers are not compatible leading to lack of sync between the zenith and the mutec whatever the usb cable you use. The workaround I found is to use a usb Aqvox interface to inject a purified 5V or this ki,d of interface ( https://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/adaptateurs-divers/cable-adaptateur-usb-b-pour-alimentation-jack-55-21mm-femelle-p-8332.html). According to Innuos, the ify ipurifier 2 seems also to be a solution.

 

BR

[KingRex]

I have an question.  My server (not an Innuos unit) runs Roon, and Roon allows HQ player to be an output with Roon still doing all your file management.  Does the Zenith allow use of HQ player in the same fashion?

 

What about Roon Server.  Can you set up Server on the Zenith, then control it from another Roon computer.  I think I am seeing yes to this question, but the comments are not fully clear.  If so, how would you describe the change.  On my server it becomes much more rich and full of flesh in the sound.  Delicious?  However, I am not sure I like it more.  There seems to be a little less air and clarity????  Maybe there is a tad fatigue?  Cant put my finger on it.  I like it for the body and energy, but I like it not in server mode for the air and ease.  Hmmm  anyone else have these experiences?  

 

Thank

 

[Patatorz]

Hello KingRex, 

the innuos can support a roon server but with limitations. So, concerning HQPlayer, i assume it could be the same. If you embed HQPlayer as a server on another machine, the innuos would run as a NAA client. But it seems it is not already possible but should not be a big deal to embed (NAA client is light, request low resources and could be easily installed on a Linux based machine).

 

The Zenith can work as a endpoint for roon (roon player) connected to a DAC in usb , as a server (Roon Core), as a server+player. You can control easily the Roon Core as server with a tablet or another computer. If you want to use more roon server capabilities like transcoding in DSD (higher than DSD128) or room correction, you can also use the innuos with an “external” server.

 

Hope it helps

[KingRex]

I don'

[KingRex]

I don't think I asked a clear question.  As a one box unit, zenith standing alone, can you activate the HQ player option under Settings >Setup>HQ Player.  I see people posting here saying the internal software on the Zenith sounds better than Roon, but they use Roon anyways for the llibrary services.  What I am getting to is HQ Player sounds better than Roon and might close the sound gap, possibly better the internal sound source.  

 

I an not quite sure the answer on the server point, but I think I am hearing you say its just a low power computer.  Do as you want within its power limitations.  For that matter, you may be able to format the drive and load windows server 2016 onto it for even better sound. That does beg a question, when you turn it on, can you access the BIOS?  If so, I am going to assume nothing is locked, its just a computer and anything can be done within the hardware limitations.  Sure I may loose the internal CD ripping capability, but I use DB poweramp and a Nimbie for that work. 

 

Are my assumptions correct?

 

Thanks.  

[Patatorz]

Hi,

 

there is no HQPlayer option in the Zenith neither as server neither as NAA endpoint. So at this time, no opportunities to use the Zenith with HQPlayer as far as I understand.

we can read a lot of things around Roon SQ. Some people are claiming that a endpoint seen as a Squeezebox in Roon (with squeezelite) sound better than the same endpoint with Roon Bridge. With Roon 1.4 some are claiming that there is no more difference. 

I don’t know if there is still such improvement in using hqplayer with Roon instead of Roon stand-alone. I also did not compare at this time the Zenith with Roon as a player or through squeezebox emulation...

 

i think that the idea of the Zenith is that the hardware and the software are optimized and maintained. If you want to install custom OS perhaps it is worth to try to build one from scratch especially if you don,t need the ripping feature. I don’t know if it is possible to access bios and I heard that the bios was also tweaked (do not remember where I read that). Perhaps what you look for is a kind of raspberry based product, fully customized....

[austinpop]

Expanding a bit on @Patatorz's excellent points above...

 

I have been having a spirited debate with Nuno via email on a similar theme. I've pointed out to him that, as delivered, the Zenith SE does not provide a path to users of certain ecosystems: 

• HQPlayer
• Audirvana+, which also enables MQA SW decoding.

My observation to him was that they (Innuos) could, with very modest SW enhancements, massively expand the capability of the box. Their design principle is to deliver a highly optimized music server/player with a slick easy-to-use GUI. Given their design choices, they clearly do not have the horsepower for complex DSP and upsampling, for example.

 

My proposal was to enable NAA and UPnP renderer functionality on the box. Yes, these are renderer/endpoint functions, not server/player functions. But aren't server/endpoint distinctions artificial? in essence, the Zenith is a bespoke, ultra high-quality computer that can deliver exceptional signal integrity on the USB port to the DAC. With these enhancements, they could server much larger communities. They could make clear that there is a hierarchy for SQ:

• for best sonic performance, use the internal player with music files on local SSD
• Need Roon? No problem.
  • Run Roon Core locally for performance approaching the internal player.
  • Want to do more compute intensive upsampling or DSP in Roon? No problem.
    • Run Roon Core on a powerful box on the network, and stream it through the Zenith via Roon Bridge.
• Does your DAC sing with HQPlayer upsampling to DSD512? No problem.
  • Run HQPlayer on a powerful box on the network, and stream it through the Zenith via NAA.
• Want to pass through MQA to your MQA-enabled DAC? 
  • Oops sorry - our internal player doesn't (yet) passthrough MQA from Tidal, but we'll fix that. Right?
  • Roon will pass through MQA to your MQA DAC
• Don't have an MQA DAC, but want to leverage MQA software decoding in Audirvana+? No problem. 
  • Enable the UPnP renderer on the Zenith
  • Enable UPnP/DLNA streaming in A+, and select the Zenith as the endpoint.

So far, he is somewhat cool to these suggestions, as I think he/they really conceived of this product for technophobe audiophiles, not us tweakers here. But as I pointed out to him, both audiences can, and do, appreciate a well-engineered product, and he should open himself to the possibilities. Adding NAA and UPnP renderer function isn't hard, and the bang for buck is significant.

 

If you have an opinion on this, please share it here, but also with Innuos, as they need to hear that this is a desirable feature set expansion.

[Patatorz]

Dear AustinPop, thanks for this clear summary. I would just add that competition, if we only take care about renderers, are already providing Roon compatibility through RAAT and through squeezelite, NAA (for HQplayer), UPnP rendering, Squeezebox emulation. We can name Sonore, SOtM etc...

So should not be a big deal to expand such opportunities to the Innuos Zenith.

 

Concerning Roon configuration, i had few discussions by email and as of now, no proposal to unlock the default folder of Roon that is stucked into "/Music". I tried to explain that i would like to not mix the folders where i rip cds and the ones i maintain for Roon library but no real feedback at this time. I understand also Innuos position as they are providing a full and robust solution and if they open some possibilities, perhaps it would request more support.....

 

Last topic, and i think it is a concern : when i tried to build a roon libray from scratched pointing to a "shared folder", roon was collapsing every 10 seconds even if the library analysis was stopped. Is it linked to rron, to the innuos, to the network....difficult to say.

 

 

 

[austinpop]

Well, if there is one thing Innuos should do well, it is customer support. They should do what it takes to solve your problem. End of story.

 

If they can't, that's pretty pathetic.

[Patatorz]

Let's be fair, it is not a big issue for 99% of the customers so i understand thta the level of priority is not so high.