Innuos Zenith SE MkII

[Anwar]

I requested DSD 4x / 256 support for Innuos Zenith Mk II to Marantz SA-10 (XMOS USB interface) since June 2019.  After I waited for almost a year, and after many promises by Nuno, only now I can play DSD 4x / 256 music files.  Thank you, but I don't think adding XMOS USB interface support needs 'almost a year' development time.

 

I guess the kernel upgrade played a part in SQ improvement because I heard better sound with 1.4.4.

[FrankMA]

Maybe I'm doing something wrong on my PS Audio Sr DAC does not accept native DSD. Does this DSD playback in Roon make sense (DSD over PCM)?

 

Thank you

[kennyb123]

On 5/20/2020 at 2:01 PM, FrankMA said:

Maybe I'm doing something wrong on my PS Audio Sr DAC does not accept native DSD. Does this DSD playback in Roon make sense (DSD over PCM)?

 

Thank you

 

That is the correct display when the DAC does not support native DSD.

 

[FrankMA]

I was afraid of that. Thanks Kenny. In researching the PSA DAC it looks like it packages it over DoP via USB per Ted Smith:

 

DoP is DSD, but wrapped in a PCM “envelope”, just like flac is PCM wrapped in a losslessly compressed “envelope”: in both cases you don’t loose any information, it’s just obscured for a little. DoP is a way of smuggling DSD thru an other PCM delivery chain. So rather than having to use something that supports 1 bit at 2.8224MHz, you can use the 24 bits at 176.4kHz path that most hardware supports.

 

I2S can accept Native DSD

[firedog]

48 minutes ago, FrankMA said:

I was afraid of that. Thanks Kenny. In researching the PSA DAC it looks like it packages it over DoP via USB per Ted Smith:

 

DoP is DSD, but wrapped in a PCM “envelope”, just like flac is PCM wrapped in a losslessly compressed “envelope”: in both cases you don’t loose any information, it’s just obscured for a little. DoP is a way of smuggling DSD thru an other PCM delivery chain. So rather than having to use something that supports 1 bit at 2.8224MHz, you can use the 24 bits at 176.4kHz path that most hardware supports.

 

I2S can accept Native DSD

Nothing to be afraid of. No meaningful difference between DoP and Native. Both are actually "native" - meaning the DSD is unaltered when sent and arriving at the DAC. 

[FrankMA]

Thanks @firedog Clears that up in my mind

 

[yellowblue]

BTW, the experimental mode that comes with new firmware is not as stable as I reported first. Last evening I wanted to listen to different new albums on Tidal and skipped to next track often within 20 seconds or so. Playing stopped sometimes and sometimes the Roon-player skipped two songs instead for one. Much better than version 1.4.3 but still not perfect. But a normal evening when you don´t skip every few seconds you very rarely will have much problems. I really can live with that.

[noel.gregoire]

28 minutes ago, yellowblue said:

BTW, the experimental mode that comes with new firmware is not as stable as I reported first. Last evening I wanted to listen to different new albums on Tidal and skipped to next track often within 20 seconds or so. Playing stopped sometimes and sometimes the Roon-player skipped two songs instead for one. Much better than version 1.4.3 but still not perfect. But a normal evening when you don´t skip every few seconds you very rarely will have much problems. I really can live with that.

 

 

 hi , i never had problem like this even with 1.4.3.. i am lucky ? . the new FW is a SQ improvement in my system .. more clarity and more depth... i 'd say also a little bit narrower but maybe beacause of  gain of depth..

[kennyb123]

4 hours ago, yellowblue said:

BTW, the experimental mode that comes with new firmware is not as stable as I reported first. Last evening I wanted to listen to different new albums on Tidal and skipped to next track often within 20 seconds or so. Playing stopped sometimes and sometimes the Roon-player skipped two songs instead for one. Much better than version 1.4.3 but still not perfect. But a normal evening when you don´t skip every few seconds you very rarely will have much problems. I really can live with that.

My experience as well.

[NYCEnglish]

Same here.

[FrankMA]

Same

[BigAlMc]

I can't comment on 1.4.3 as my SE was on the bench but I recently put the SE back into my system and the timing was great as 1.4.4 followed a few weeks later.

 

Experimental mode seems far more stable (than I recall at least when it first came out). But having a few issues than I thought I'd document for the benefit of @nvitorino and team in case it helps with future focus on fixes.

 

Play an album or tracklist. Generally with no problems. Pause a track for even a short while. Resume playing and I'd say 50% chance of an issue here. Typical issue is it either stalls and then skips to the next track. Or plays a few seconds, stutters and then skips to the next track.

 

Other main issue is if I have say an album playing and I skip to the next track, again it stutters and may or may not play the next track. Sometimes seems to have paused and struggles to resume. I'd say this happens 20% of the time. Resolution is to select Play from here on the required track in Roon as it seems to be really struggling to recover itself without that intervention.

 

Is this similar to what others are seeing?

 

On the whole after a lengthy period of NUC adventures though I'm loving the sound and experience of having my SE restored to it's former glory. Also considering adding a Phoenix soon 😎.

 

Cheers,

Alan

[kennyb123]

18 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Other main issue is if I have say an album playing and I skip to the next track, again it stutters and may or may not play the next track. Sometimes seems to have paused and struggles to resume.

 

I have experienced a “struggle to resume” on a few occasions.  I’d say it’s more like it gets stuck and absolutely refuses to play the current album.  Getting it unstuck has required me to jump to a track on a different album.  I’ve been impatient with it though when it gets stuck.

This Experimental mode is sooo much better than the previous one though.

 

The other glitch I’ve occasionally noticed is that Roon has trouble resuming if it’s been left paused mid-song for some period of time.  I can’t say how long it takes, but it just seems occasionally stuck when I return to listening.

 

[Vangelis]

I just picked a used Zenith MKII SE last week. Now I’m thinking about if I should import my AIFF files to the Zenith as WAV or FLAC. Anyone found an improvement in WAV over FLAC? I guess WAV files take up more drive space. I may not even be able to transfer my files over as WAV as I already have 1.7 TB of AIFF files to transfer to the Zenith.  The Innuos manual kind of discourages the use of WAV files.

[BigAlMc]

2 hours ago, Vangelis said:

I just picked a used Zenith MKII SE last week. Now I’m thinking about if I should import my AIFF files to the Zenith as WAV or FLAC. Anyone found an improvement in WAV over FLAC? I guess WAV files take up more drive space. I may not even be able to transfer my files over as WAV as I already have 1.7 TB of AIFF files to transfer to the Zenith.  The Innuos manual kind of discourages the use of WAV files.

 

Dude - you're risking opening a bunfight here! You may as well ask if cables make a difference! 😅

 

Haven't compared the two as I used FLAC before I got my Zenith. Tho from memory I think Innuos recommend zero compression FLAC (as uses less CPU resources to unpack I think). Doubt there's much of a difference, if any. I'd choose the format you prefer. Worst case do the same file in both formats and compare (for peace of mind).

 

Cheers,

Alan

[Vangelis]

I don’t want to get into which file sounds better but I want to get my file converted. closest to my native AIFF files. Unfortunately I cannot copy my files over in their native AIFF format. I understand that WAV is the closest file type to AIFF.  I’ve heard rumors that newer servers can reach out and grab metadata now for WAV files, at least artwork artist and song information. But I’m not sure the Innuos will do that. Is there anybody at imported wave files in to the Zenith and found album art etc attached? I guess if the AIFF & FLAC file size are the same I could at least try it. 

[kennyb123]

1 hour ago, Vangelis said:

I don’t want to get into which file sounds better but I want to get my file converted. closest to my native AIFF files. Unfortunately I cannot copy my files over in their native AIFF format. I understand that WAV is the closest file type to AIFF.  I’ve heard rumors that newer servers can reach out and grab metadata now for WAV files, at least artwork artist and song information. But I’m not sure the Innuos will do that. Is there anybody at imported wave files in to the Zenith and found album art etc attached? I guess if the AIFF & FLAC file size are the same I could at least try it. 

 

I'm not quite understanding why you can't copy files over in AIFF format.  I've done this.  And yes, WAV and AIFF are both uncompressed formats that are very similar, though ID3v2 tags can be embedded in AIFF.  I won't use WAV files because of the lack of embedded tag support.  

 

As I understand it, the choice between WAV and FLAC on the Zenith governs only which format CDs are ripped to using their built-in ripper.  AIFF is supported.

[Vangelis]

Oh, that’s great news! I had that completely wrong. I was wondering why Innuos wouldn’t support other file formats.  I thought I had to choose one or the other when I import files and that the Zenith would, based on my import selection convert the files to either FLAC or WAV. Thank you so much for clearing that up. 

[Vangelis]

I’ve been trying to determine if I should leave my Zenith MKII SE on continuously or just turn it on from the front switch when I wish to listen to it. The drives are SS so they probably won’t be impacted too much by being left on. I’m not sure if by turning off the front switch if some portions of the Zenith remain powered up. Does the standby keep it partially warmed up? There is a substantial power supply in the chassis, Providing the rear toggle switch is already powered on, does the sound improve leaving the front power /standby button on? 

[kennyb123]

I always leave my digital components powered on as clocks sound best once they've thermally stabilized.  

[your momo]

I'm used to let my Innuos always ON when using any of my Logitech streamer (Transporter or Touch) as those are kind of "brainless" when no server available. Also those units have no real power switch, so need to unplug main power to really shut down - cumbersome.

Couldn't determine if this has impact on SQ, as Innuos would just be kind of "standby" while streamer would be fully off grid and they have clock to stabilize too. So easiest is to let all ON.

 

However if I want best Sound Quality I use Innuos USB out direct to my DAC, which I turn standby in between listening (he has a tube stage) - but his two supply (Farad Super3) are always ON. Also my MOS-FET mono-blocs are waiting in mute - warm.

Overall, best sound is reached mostly after 20 or so minutes - regardless if Innuos was ON or in Standby. I believe tube stage of the DAC is limiting factor for immediate good sound - digital part of the DAC is kept powered while analog is in standby, so clocks are stable.

 

Longest thermal settle time in my setup are the two mono-blocs, if I turn them OFF, they need hours to warm up the chassi  - first watt or so is class A.

[Vangelis]

This may not be the appropriate forum for this.

This is both a Innuos and a hard drive issue. Anyone reading my posts has likely interpreted that I’m not technologically savvy, I’m always trying to claw my way through this stuff. A lot of the instructions I read might as well be in Latin. I have a OWC Mercury Elite pro single 2tb HD drive. I am trying to import my music files into my Zenith MKII SE server from the OWC external hard drive. The drive is already formatted at fat 32 (see attached photograph). When I try to import, I get an Innuos error message saying “Unfortunately your a USB drive is formatted in way we can’t recognize”. “Your USB drive needs to be formatted in one of the three acceptable formats, NTFS, Fat 32 and HFS”

 

Innuos support replied: “The issue you described if usually related to not healthy, degraded or malfunctioning USB Disk drives and/or corrupted partitions or file systems on the usb drive. Your screenshot even mentions that the Data volume was created on December 31, 1969 which is hardly believable”

 

I don’t believe the HD is corrupted, as it plays just fine through my Mac system. 

 

So I contacted OWC support. With the help of their support technician I did a first aid check on the external drive he claimed the drive is working fine. The Innuos notes say “ The Innuos will automatically select the first drive partition above 512 MB on the hard drive”. It will then scan your entire USB drive and import any music found there.”  How do I know if my drive is partitioned in a Innuos friendly fashion?  Is there a way to determine if my drive is partitioned in a manner the Zenith doesn’t like? My concern is buying another drive and coping music files over to the new drive may just pass corrupted partitions or file systems onto the new drive?

Is there a reason why Innuos might prefer NTFS over Fat32?

 

I’m at a loss about how to move forward. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[BigAlMc]

Hi @Vangelis,

 

Depending how big you library is then perhaps a USB thumb drive as an interim step. 

 

If you have a spare one copy across a few GB to the USB drive and the put it in the Zenith to see if it works.

 

A 64 or 128gb is fairly cheap. Bit of a hassle but might help work past your issue. Workaround rather than fix admittedly.

 

Cheers,

Alan

[Blackmorec]

I would imagine OWC provides various utilities for managing and doing housekeeping on their drives. Take a look at OWC Support downloads and see what they have available. They should offer utilities to check disc and file integrity with clean-up routines.  Once your drive gets a clean bill of health using OWC tools you can try the upload again.  At least as a starting point. 

[Vangelis]

6 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Hi @Vangelis,

 

Depending how big you library is then perhaps a USB thumb drive as an interim step. 

 

If you have a spare one copy across a few GB to the USB drive and the put it in the Zenith to see if it works.

 

A 64 or 128gb is fairly cheap. Bit of a hassle but might help work past your issue. Workaround rather than fix admittedly.

 

Cheers,

Alan

I have over a TB of files so a USB stick transfer would take too long. The support technician from OWC recommended disc Wizard for further analysis. My drive with the current files worked fine when I transferred it to a different server. This is what makes me question the Zenith’s requirements. When you transferred your files what format was your hard drive? I’m waiting to hear back from Innuos about which specific format I should be using.