Innuos Zenith SE MkII

[BigAlMc]

I decided to get the SE based partly of stellar reviews by owners over on Head-fi (including Romaz who compared it very favourably to the DCS network bridge and fairly favourably to his own sCLK-EX server). And also Darkos review really helped, especially as he paired it with the same DAC as I have (the PS Audio Directstream). 

 

I was very tempted by the SOtM Trifecta but didn't want another spaghetti set up. Likewise the sCLK-EX server tempted but doubt I have the technical chops to pull off building one. 

 

Throw in the fact that the SE does both USB and Ethernet output (the latest Antipodes DX only does USB) and I was convinced. 

 

The curveball was that my previous Roon server had died valiantly whilst on duty and the SE waiting list was an issue. I therefore arranged the use of an MKII as essentially a loaner until my SE was ready. 

 

By coincidence I spoke to the dealer today before this thread was started and should receive my SE next week. This is a real bonus as didn't expect it until 'late January'  I thought I was going to have to live vicariously through the reviews from @limniscate and @austinpop! 

 

Meantime I'm very impressed with the MKII and based on the SQ I'm getting from that am really excited to see/hear how much the SE beats it. 

 

Will report back as I fully intend on comparing the two whilst I have the luxury of having both the MKII and the SE in da house! 

 

Cheers, 

Alan

[BigAlMc]

21 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Yes, the sound was completely uninspiring and left me emotionally uninvolved.

I think the price difference between the standard and the SE is too steep. As you said the SE will be bettered in a few years. Another point is that the SE is an upgrade only, not a complete new design.

 

Matt

 

Fair enough but my thinking here is that Innuos have paid attention to a few of the things we advocate in so many of the threads here at CA. 

 

PSU - the bulk of the expenditure of the SE is that triple toroidal PSU. I'm thinking of all the forum members waiting on an SR7. To me the SE is almost an off the shelf server with inbuilt PSU of similar quality. 

 

Low noise circuit board. The unit is designed to minimise noise. 

 

Bridged ethernet port. Sounds oddly familiar, right? 

 

Yeah it's expensive. But I'm taking the punt that for the time being this is one of the most advanced servers incorporating some of the lessons this community has been so instrumental in developing. 

 

That said clocks and the sCLK-EX are the glaring omissions based on the prevailing wisdom. But we'll see I guess. 

[BigAlMc]

 

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/12/dars-favourite-bits-of-2017/

 

Darko on why he nearly gave the SE product of the year 2017:

 

This is what it’s like to have reviewed – and then returned to the manufacturer – the ZENith MKII SE music server (€5699, 2TB) from Portugal’s Innuos. I find myself haunted by my memory of its sound. It was like no other digital source I’d heard to date: richer and smoother than more affordable rivals like the Sonore ultraRendu (US$875) which, in a post-ZENith MKII SE world, is contrasted as sharper on the tip of the tongue (translation: more treble glare) – a quality I’d not heard before spending time with the Innuos. Doubly interesting was how the USB-lassoed flagship server bested the sound of Ethernet direct inputs on both the KEF LS50 Wireless and the Devialet Expert 120. If ever there was a lesson in getting what you pay for with digital sources this was it.

[BigAlMc]

5 minutes ago, ADCO said:

I came out of a fairly optimized Pc with Sotm card with separate power supply , The HD plex power supply for the mother board etc etc feeding a Micro rendu....and this sounded very good.

While all of this is purely subjective I have to tell you the Zenith is better in every way I can articulate ....I just cant get enough hours of music in now. And that is really what its all about, that and its the easiest dam thing ever to get up and running on Roon.

Yeah that's been my experience with the MKII too. 

 

The SQ is terrific and I'm really wondering where the SE needs to take things in order to significantly improve upon what I'm hearing now. 

[BigAlMc]

9 minutes ago, ADCO said:

My dealer , or should I say distributor here in Ontario didn't quite come out and say it but the undertones where that the sweet spot in the line up in terms of a value proposition was the standard....I kinda just took that as situation normal as with all hifi . In other words diminishing returns...I don't know this to be any kind of fact though.

I just didnt see the price of the standard Zenith as being any kind of risk and it has exceeded my expectations generally

Yeah I can believe that. 

 

Also, and I'm sure you know this, the MKII is the top of the range - or at least was until the SE. 

 

If I hadn't already ordered my SE I'd be very tempted to stick with the MKII because I'm really impressed with what I'm hearing. 

 

I'll shut up now as going a bit fanboy. But glad you're happy with your Zenith. 

 

Cheers 

Alan 

[BigAlMc]

I'm going to break a cardinal rule and post listening impressions on a unit that has less than one hour burn-in on it!!

 

Initial impressions:

 

Ouch!!

 

The SE sounds good out of the box but there was a (not sure how to articulate this) smoothness or sense of control with the MKII. And that has been replaced by something harder to describe. It's a bit harsher and sounds like it's wavering or something.

 

Obviously the unit is brand spanking new and it needs by all accounts at least a couple hundred hours before it's fair to judge it. But I was absolutely loving the SQ and the smoothness of the MKII and as soon as I got music playing on the SE I immediately heard a change in SQ that was not a step in the right direction.

[BigAlMc]

PS Kudos to Innuos though on usability. From unboxing to playing the first music took less than 20 minutes. Really could not be easier.

[BigAlMc]

Forgive the crappy picture. My LG V30 sounds fantastic but the camera is pretty average. 

 

Top to bottom:

MKII (unplugged currently) 

Directstream DAC 

MKII SE (on and playing) 

 

Will give the SE at least 100 hours and then set up the MKII at the same time to try and A/B the two. Guess I'm in a fairly unusual position having both in the house at the same time. Need to return the MKII to the dealer in a couple weeks tho. 

[BigAlMc]

Interestingly, only 2-3 hours of playing in and it seems to be settling down a bit. Sounding pretty great! That or my ears have adjusted...

 

Ok no more listening impressions until it's got 3 figures of hours on the clock.

[BigAlMc]

Sorry breaking all the rules including my own. Am like 7 hours in and it sounds fecking terrific! There's no other way of describing it. I'll do an A-B as objectively as I can come the time. But this sounds amazing already despite the reported burn-in period. 

 

 

[BigAlMc]

Hi ADCO, 

 

Sorry to hear about your hassles. 

 

Not sure how you put the music files on your Zenith but in case it's helpful I logged onto the laptop that holds my music files, selected the Zenith under the folders under My Network, and simply copied the files from the laptop to the "Compressed" file on the Zenith. 

 

I figured they were FLAC so Compressed was the closest fit. 

 

Anyway it worked like a dream and Roon sees them. 

 

Might be worth a try. Unless you are talking about files you ripped using the Zenith, in which case I agree speaking to Innuos is the way to go. 

 

You can probably use a laptop to simply move those files from Unsorted to Compressed or whatever. 

 

Hope this helps mate. 

 

Good luck getting it sorted 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[BigAlMc]

Fingers crossed dude! 

[BigAlMc]

Short of obvious stuff like restart the Zenith and by implication Roon, I'm not sure what to suggest. 

 

Worked easily for me. 

 

Are you using Roon on the SE as a Core? And did you select Core instead of Player? You can check under Settings and Server on the myinnuos.com app. 

 

Also what sort of DAC are you trying to send to. USB, ethernet etc? 

 

 

[BigAlMc]

As a workaround until Innuos can help you (given its Saturday night here in Europe) you could do the following:

 

Enable Upnp server instead of Roon on the SE.  

 

Download the local player app for Squeezebox that suits your device (see the Innuos quickstart guide for recommended apps). 

 

This should allow you to play your local files via USB to your DAC. And whilst you lose the rich Roon UI the SQ is potentially a step up. 

 

Just a suggestion to get your tunes flowing until Innuos can help. 

[BigAlMc]

Hey Rajiv, 

 

Are you any closer to posting your much anticipated listening impressions of the SE? Or are your TX-USBultra problems slowing things down? 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[BigAlMc]

1 minute ago, monteverdi said:

I am still waiting patiently for the arrival of an Zentith II but I wonder what is the best format to rip WAV or FLA?. Is it dependent on which DAC is used? What is the compression level of the FLAC rips?

 

My understanding (and I'll happily be corrected by the more knowledgable on here) is:

 

The Innuos rips to FLAC but with zero compression. Unlike the likes of DBpoweramp or suchlike which recommend some compression. 

 

It would be interesting to hear Innuos opine on why they selected this. 

 

The other option is WAV as you say. 

 

I believe the advantage of FLAC over WAV is that FLAC supports better meta-data (artists, release year etc). 

 

I 'think' but at this stage risk the wrath of the purists - that uncompressed FLAC and WAV are essentially the same thing and should sound the same. Note should! 

 

I stand ready to be corrected or pelted with rotten fruit 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[BigAlMc]

7 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Hi Alan,

 

Getting there. Yes, the failure of the tX-USBultra was a real spanner in the works. I just got a shipping notification that I will receive it back midweek. It too will need burn in, so I should have something to say in about 2 weeks, perhaps sooner. On the plus side, my SE is well past 300 hours burned in, so it's raring to go!

 

BTW - May and Lee gave me pretty amazing customer service as usual. My problem was an intermittent one, and rather than hold me up, they just replaced the internal boards in my unit. Kudos to SOtM.

 

Thanks Rajiv, 

 

Am very curious to hear your thoughts. Especially versus the Trifecta which in my mind at least was the choice. Trifecta (spaghetti) but awesome SQ vs kick ass (but simple) server. 

 

I have the SE and an MKII in house. But I need to return the MKII soon and I head off on holiday (vacation for you linguistically challenged Americans ) on the 1st of February. 

 

So I need to find the time to set up an A-B test but need to allow time to courier the spare unit back to the dealer. 

 

Obviously my impressions are completely different as I'm assessing 'best unit' in my setup. Whereas you and Eric have more of a perspective on SE vs Trifecta. 

 

Anyhow, I look forward to your thoughts. 

 

Have a great weekend. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[BigAlMc]

11 minutes ago, rickca said:

FLAC vs WAV is an long standing argument but it doesn't belong here.  I know you weren't looking to start one.

 

Thanks for not throwing rotten tomatoes my way 

 

Yup - just meant the same in terms of compression. 

[BigAlMc]

www.the-ear.net/review-hardware/innuos-zenith-se-mkii-std-network-audio-server

 

Jason Kennedy is a fan! 

 

"the SE is by far the quietest and most revealing digital source I have encountered in three decades of reviewing." 

 

"Epiphany machine
But the reason I wanted to get as much music as possible onto the Zenith SE is that I have never heard better sound from digital audio before." 

[BigAlMc]

10 minutes ago, yellowblue said:

It´s possible that all of the MK2 SE are sold now. I just ordered one and my dealer told me that he got the last one for me. I need to wait until end of february to get it shipped to me. Should be fun - with tx-USBultra and DAVE.

 

Congrats on your purchase!

 

I'm 62/100 and loving mine! Should be worth the wait.

[BigAlMc]

Thanks @austinpop for the great review and that comparison with the SoTM Trifecta we're all been so interested in. Slightly less thanks though for adding substance to the theory that I might need a TX-USBultra too in order to really hear what the SE can do with USB! Dagnabbit!

[BigAlMc]

So I found myself in the unusual position of having both Zenith MKII and a Zenith SE in the home and naturally I was curious to hear how they compared.

 

 

The backstory is that my previous server died on me and at the time I was already following Romaz's experience with the SE and Darkos review which had the SE on my wishlist. I took it as an omen, tried to pull the trigger but was told at the start of December that it would be late January before my SE arrived. This was not an acceptable situation so after pondering and discussing with a couple Innuos dealers I arranged a deal where I'd effectively get an MKII as a loaner until the SE arrived. I'm taking a small hit on returning the MKII but that was worthwhile to me.

 

Anyway the SE arrived earlier than expected and after giving it a few hundred hours burn-in I tackled A-B-ing them on Thursday. But this raised a few methodology questions.

 

1. I'm a Roon user normally but my license and setup would not allow me to have Roon Core running on two servers at the same time.
2. The MKII & SE sound best when plugged directly into the DAC by Ethernet or USB. But swapping cable continuously and the lengthy gaps make it harder to hear the differences.

I therefore settled on this configuration:

 

Both the MKII and SE running Upnp server. Both connected to my AQVOX switch via their LAN ports. The AQVOX switch then connected to my Directstream DAC via the Bridge II ethernet connection. Both servers plugged into my IsoTek Sigmas power conditioner. And Ghent 'JSSG' 1 metre ethernet cables for all three connections to/from the switch. I hoped that this was the most level playing field I could manage.

 

Then using BubbleUpnp app on my phone I was able to select the server I wanted and flip between each to play the same track.

 

 

Thursday conclusion: The MKII is very, very good but the SE is just better. Better how is hard to describe. The both have a very similar sound profile. The 'Dynamism', 'calmness' and 'richness' that Rajiv so eloquently describes on his review is present in the characteristics of both players sound. Likewise the 'grip and authority' that Romaz describes over at Head-fi is also evident. The SE is just more - I struggle for a word that does it justice but am going to settle on - delicious. There is more gravel and breath in the vocals, more timbre in the strings and a darker background. I'm not doing it justice. But the SE just sounds more delicious.

 

But here is the rub. The MKII (at a very more reasonable price point) is also delicious. Just not as delicious as the SE.

 

Part two - Friday & Saturday conclusions.

 

I then started worrying that both servers connected to the switch and the switch connected to the DAC was not the ideal way to really compare them. Because even the highly rated AQVOX switch might be impacting the SQ. So I bit the proverbial bullet and decided to test by removing cables and plugging each server directly to the DAC.

 

Side note - does anyone else find those Ghent cables a pain (literally) to detach. My thumb is still throbbing! 

 

The conclusion was the same but more so. The Zeniths defo sound better going directly into my Directstream via ethernet rather than via a switch. As Romaz said in his review he thinks this is essentially the same 'bridged' trick that instigated his epic post where Austinpop put his review. The MKII was still very, very good. The SE was just more delicious. 

 

Ditto for swapping the USB cable. In the case the Phasure Lush cable from MKII to SE. This was harder to test as my DS didn't seem impressed and I kept having to power-cycle it as it kept refusing to play the next track when connected to a new server. But the results were the same. The MKII was great. The SE was greater 

 

Final conclusions:

 

A> If I had not heard or heard of the SE then I would be very happy with my MKII

B> For the money the MKII is stonkingly good value and well worth consideration

C> For those less concerned about their wallets and wanting a simple TOTL setup then the SE is well worth consideration.

 

I guess the caveat to C is that it looks like they are all sold. But given the stellar reviews and reception it's hard not to imagine Innuos doing something similar in the near future. MKIII, differently configured SE etc.

 

For me, mine is defo a keeper and I need to arrange for UPS to collect and return the MKII to the dealer.

 

Anyway - I hope this long ramble is helpful. I'm hoping that I'm nearing my end-game for the next few years at least because the SQ I'm getting now is terrific and digital is finally sounding how it should.  Famous last words obviously!!

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

 

[BigAlMc]

Back by dope demand! 

[BigAlMc]

23 hours ago, yellowblue said:

Even if it crazy much money for a server - it was impossible for me to find a better one-box-solution with Roon, Ethernet and USB-out (futureproof) and harddisk. 

 

Hi Yellowblue, 

 

Your latest post caused me to revisit your last couple and I'm going to agree and disagree. 

 

Agree - 5k+ (I'm dealing in sterling and given its a European product the American cousins can do the math as they say (it's not math by the way, it's mathematics but I digress)). 5k+ is crazy for a server. No doubt. 

 

BUT. 

 

When I spent 5k on my Directstream DAC (which according to all the reviews was amazing. And really is) I discovered there was still something missing. 

 

I've been on a long complicated journey since then but here is my main item of wisdom earned:

 

There is only so much that the DAC, whatever DAC it is,  can do. It might be a truly wondrous but of technology but it's not immune to the source. 

 

I'm not for a second advocating that everyone needs to spend 5k each on DAC and Server. I am however suggesting that ratio of DAC:Server spend of 10:1 or even 5:1 deserves much closer scrutiny 

 

Just my biased 2 cents. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[BigAlMc]

On 1/30/2018 at 2:55 AM, Advieira said:

How do you guys compare SQ from Innuos Zenith MkII or MkII SE to a proper Mac Mini Mod (MMK, Good LPS, running system from 300mb/s SXDC Card, internal SSD) serving as Roon Core to a SMS-200Ultra or Ultra Rendu?

 

In the absence of a more relevant data point I'll offer mine. Alas no experience of Mac Mini, SMS-200Ultra or Ultra Rendu.

 

Closest I can offer is to my MicroRendu (1.4 upgrade) so almost the UltraRendu but not quite. Which I further enhanced with ISO Regen and an SU-1. And the MKII versus these three combined (all powered by LPS-1s) is no contest in favour of the MKII. The SE is obviously even further ahead.