Innuos Zenith SE MkII

[Patatorz]

Hello, I  come to you for an information concerning the innuos that is not clear to me. I tested and was owner, for some of them, of numerous streamers : TTD, Aries, refStream, 3dlab nano, Amare Musica, rockna, sonore, sotm,....some of them are gorgeous, some others less....I think I know now what I want/need and I focus, for sure on sound quality but I need a streamer that is fully support Roon and could be a upnp renderer.

with the innuos, no doubt on Roon but for UPnP....I understand that it is a upnp server, based on asset upnp, but is it also an UPnP renderer, openhome compatible ?

 

Thanks for your help.

[Patatorz]

Do you know if there is a possibility of upgrading from a 2 to a 4to after sale ?

 

best regards 

[Patatorz]

Hello AustinPop. I should receive a SE on Monday and my main usage is with Roon.

i use today a PC with passive cooling and linear power supply as Roon server. 

What i understand from your post is that there is no possibility to select from Roon Core (the server) installed on the Zenith to select the folders that should be imported/managed through Roon ? If it is the case for the local SSD I think it should be the same for folders on a NAS : no possibility to use folded on a NAS through smb, cifs or nfs sharing.

did I understand well ?

BR

[Patatorz]

I understood what you said about unlocking with the support of Innuos.

But sorry if I reformulate, just to ensure I understand. What you say is that there is only access to the music folder on the SSD but no possibility to create another folder dedicated for Roon : i’m right ?

thanks

[Patatorz]

You mean physically : internally, through NAS sharing or in terms of fluidity, load etc... ?

[Patatorz]

As I don’t have at this time the SE, I assume that if you have a 6To library on a NAS, pointing the innuos server to the NAS folder of your library should work. 

The SE seems only manage 4To internally.

[Patatorz]

12 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Correct.

Thanks 

[Patatorz]

I will receive it tomorrow and the seller told me that he installed the latest version. I will check for the 1.3.2

 

 

[Patatorz]

On 02/02/2018 at 10:09 PM, austinpop said:

 

I wanted to come back and update this advice after having finally done this successfully. Here are my updated instructions.

 

Before starting, contact Nuno at Innuos support and have him do a remote session to unlock the local SSD as a selectable storage location in Roon. This is very important!

 

Now, there are 3 logical stages to the migration:

1. Physically copy music over to the Zenith SE's internal SSD
2. Bring up Roon correctly on the Zenith SE, by restoring from a database backup of your existing Core
3. Fixup the music location under Roon > Settings > Storage

Do the following first, on your existing Roon Core server:

• Make a backup to something you can access on the SE - a network share, or even a USB stick.
• Go to Roon > Settings > Storage and note down where your music is currently stored.
• Let's assume your current Roon Core is on a Windows machine named WinRoon, and your music is in E:\MyMusicLib

Let't take each in turn.

1. Physically copy music over to the Zenith SE's internal SSD
   • The key pitfall here is to avoid the Auto-Import at all costs!
   • On the machine WinRoon, open the Zenith network share, and copy the folder E:\MyMusicLib over to the Music folder on the Zenith.
   • Note: once this completes, the full path to your music folder in the SE is /storage/Music/MyMusicLib
2. Bring up Roon correctly on the Zenith SE, by restoring from a database backup of your existing Core
   • See https://kb.roonlabs.com/Migration
   • It's really useful to do it this way
   • The key is to select "Restore from backup" on the Roon login screen
3. Fixup the music location under Roon > Settings > Storage
   • You'll see the previous location you had there - [E:] MyMusicLib. Obviously, it's meaningless on the Zenith.
   • Click on the 3 vertical dots next to this location, and select Edit.
   • On the next screen, hit Browse
   • Now navigate to your music on the local SSD. That will be at /storage/Music/MyMusicLib
   • Select, and save. At this point, you'll see Roon scanning your files
4. Verify everything works. In my case, it worked perfectly. My library looked exactly as it had, and all my playlists, play counts, Date Added etc were all as before.

The real trick to this is to get Nuno to unlock the SSD in Roon, so you can actually Edit your existing storage location, and change the location by browsing to /storage/Music/MyMusicLib. The current default of just having Music be a non-navigable location in Roon does not work well. There is a difference between editing your existing music storage location, rather than disabling it, and enabling another location.

 

I'm going to point Nuno to this post and ask him to consider providing a navigable storage option in Roon in future updates of their system.

 

Hello AustinPop, I plan to go through your tutorial today for Roon as I use today a Roon core on another Linux machine.

My problem is when I go through windows explorer and look for the zenith, I type the il address of the zenith but it request a login and password to access. Would you know what I’ve done wrong ?

[Patatorz]

It is Not linked to innuos. Even Roon that have a strong meta engine is facing some issues in front of classical music for example...

i has been the same for me with good softwares like dbpoweramp/cd writer, and probably because they are using the same database. For sure something to improve.

 

 

[Patatorz]

I followed AustinPop recommendations for Roon installation. I went to the topic where i can not point the storage on a folder diferent from the "MUSIC" one on the internal SSD. I think it is linked to what you said, @austinpop , about unlocking the drive. 

 

I tried to map from roon storage option to a shared network on a NAS. No issue to point to this folder, but the Roon server of the Zenith is restarting every 10s as it can not accommodate the mapping (i removed the audio analysis in background). Did somebody experienced this problem ?

 

I have no issue with a PC computer running another Roon Server on the same PC to run such mapping to a shared folder

 

Best Regards 

[Patatorz]

11 hours ago, Patatorz said:

I followed AustinPop recommendations for Roon installation. I went to the topic where i can not point the storage on a folder diferent from the "MUSIC" one on the internal SSD. I think it is linked to what you said, @austinpop , about unlocking the drive. 

 

I tried to map from roon storage option to a shared network on a NAS. No issue to point to this folder, but the Roon server of the Zenith is restarting every 10s as it can not accommodate the mapping (i removed the audio analysis in background). Did somebody experienced this problem ?

 

I have no issue with a PC computer running another Roon Server on the same PC to run such mapping to a shared folder

 

Best Regards 

I quote myself. I read another time the recommendations of AustinPop and understood that I made something wrong. In fact, after restoring a library backup, instead of editing the locations of the files in the storage parameters in Roon, I deleted the location of the previous library and created new location on shared folder on the network. In this case it does not work and drive the Roon server to check files for 10 seconds before crashing and restarting. 

Editing the locations and pointing to the shared folder on the network prevents from these crashing...

 

My small latest issue on Roon is to have Roon unlocked in order I can select from Roon storage options not the music folder but the one I created under music.

 

I use a spdif/usb interface (Mutec MC3+ USB) as my DAC is not usb compatible. Confirmed by Innuos, when using the Zenith as player, the Zenith and the mutec controllers are not compatible leading to lack of sync between the zenith and the mutec whatever the usb cable you use. The workaround I found is to use a usb Aqvox interface to inject a purified 5V or this ki,d of interface ( https://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/adaptateurs-divers/cable-adaptateur-usb-b-pour-alimentation-jack-55-21mm-femelle-p-8332.html). According to Innuos, the ify ipurifier 2 seems also to be a solution.

 

BR

[Patatorz]

Hello KingRex, 

the innuos can support a roon server but with limitations. So, concerning HQPlayer, i assume it could be the same. If you embed HQPlayer as a server on another machine, the innuos would run as a NAA client. But it seems it is not already possible but should not be a big deal to embed (NAA client is light, request low resources and could be easily installed on a Linux based machine).

 

The Zenith can work as a endpoint for roon (roon player) connected to a DAC in usb , as a server (Roon Core), as a server+player. You can control easily the Roon Core as server with a tablet or another computer. If you want to use more roon server capabilities like transcoding in DSD (higher than DSD128) or room correction, you can also use the innuos with an “external” server.

 

Hope it helps

[Patatorz]

Hi,

 

there is no HQPlayer option in the Zenith neither as server neither as NAA endpoint. So at this time, no opportunities to use the Zenith with HQPlayer as far as I understand.

we can read a lot of things around Roon SQ. Some people are claiming that a endpoint seen as a Squeezebox in Roon (with squeezelite) sound better than the same endpoint with Roon Bridge. With Roon 1.4 some are claiming that there is no more difference. 

I don’t know if there is still such improvement in using hqplayer with Roon instead of Roon stand-alone. I also did not compare at this time the Zenith with Roon as a player or through squeezebox emulation...

 

i think that the idea of the Zenith is that the hardware and the software are optimized and maintained. If you want to install custom OS perhaps it is worth to try to build one from scratch especially if you don,t need the ripping feature. I don’t know if it is possible to access bios and I heard that the bios was also tweaked (do not remember where I read that). Perhaps what you look for is a kind of raspberry based product, fully customized....

[Patatorz]

Dear AustinPop, thanks for this clear summary. I would just add that competition, if we only take care about renderers, are already providing Roon compatibility through RAAT and through squeezelite, NAA (for HQplayer), UPnP rendering, Squeezebox emulation. We can name Sonore, SOtM etc...

So should not be a big deal to expand such opportunities to the Innuos Zenith.

 

Concerning Roon configuration, i had few discussions by email and as of now, no proposal to unlock the default folder of Roon that is stucked into "/Music". I tried to explain that i would like to not mix the folders where i rip cds and the ones i maintain for Roon library but no real feedback at this time. I understand also Innuos position as they are providing a full and robust solution and if they open some possibilities, perhaps it would request more support.....

 

Last topic, and i think it is a concern : when i tried to build a roon libray from scratched pointing to a "shared folder", roon was collapsing every 10 seconds even if the library analysis was stopped. Is it linked to rron, to the innuos, to the network....difficult to say.

 

 

 

[Patatorz]

Let's be fair, it is not a big issue for 99% of the customers so i understand thta the level of priority is not so high.

[Patatorz]

Hello Alan,

 

you are writing to AustinPop, but I try to give my 2 cents even if I’m not sure to understand your points (English is not my first language...).

 

i think there is different ways of using the Zenith :

1/ use it as a server standalone with Roon, UPnP or squeezebox servers. You can add a streamer with the bridged mode as it seems to be a qualitative way of using the zenith.

2/ use it as a streamer through USB and using other servers like Roon when you need powerful features like transcoding or Roon correction.

3/ use it as a server and a streamer.

 

it you are using a third party renderer, and if this renderer is NAA compatible so no need of the zenith

if you are using the zenith as a server and also renderer so NAA could be interesting but you need a HqPlayer on another computer....

 

i’m Not sure to understand what you mean by introducing noise with NAA client : could you elaborate a bit more as I don’t see how this portion of code like NAA could introduce noise.

 

Thanks

[Patatorz]

2 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

I know what you are saying and mostly agree. 

 

But:

 

http://www.innuos.com/en/catalog/go/music-servers-mk2

 

First and foremost it's a server. 

With renderer functionalities implemented. Best of both Worlds

[Patatorz]

Did you send this information to innuos support in order to explain that other software are doing better ? Dbpoweramp is using freedb, Amazon etc...so should be also possible for innuos.

 

best regards

[Patatorz]

Why should it be a more fair comparison ? Because of the price ?

you would compare a pure endpoint to a server/endpoint ? 

In this case how do you feed the sonore signature SE to compare with the Zenith SE.

 

BR

[Patatorz]

9 hours ago, KingRex said:

I want to hear the txusb result.  Are you adding a master clock.  

 

I have a Mojo server that is not much different than the Innuos items.  I am getting amazing sound, confirmed by 2 industry professionals via USB to my DAC.  Still curious any additional heights it could go.  

 

My point per Sonore Signature is they say its their best.  Im just curious to know.  Not going to sell my unit, its to good. 

I tested the micro rendu in v1.4b with the uptone lps1 and 2.5 software version. Zenith and sonore pointing to a Roon Server. The biggest difference is linked to the sound stages much more defined on the zenith SE. on difficult records (Rodrigo and Gabriella / tamacun on the live ok Tokyo) I would even say that it is very difficult on the sonore microrendu. But it is not’the Sonore Signature SE....

[Patatorz]

Great feedback : Thanks !!!

[Patatorz]

Hello, just to let you know incompatibility between Zentih MK2 and USB/SPDIF interface Mutec MC3+ USB. Both company are aware but seems difficult to find some solutions.

Incompatibility depends also on the USB cable used. Some solutions could come from 5V USB power supply from AQvox for example. Innuos mentioned the ifi Purifier 2 but did not test.

[Patatorz]

Sorry for the late feedback and thanks for your comments. I'm surprised that you say that the MC3+ USB is taking a lot of the 5V rail as it is not a self powered interface. Are you sure ?

[Patatorz]

ok thanks, i thought that such "high end" interface would have a clear 5V supply. Best regards