Respectable Integrateds

[gmgraves]

12 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Please no responses from those that don't believe there are any respectable integrateds.

 

This thread is for those that believe a respectable integrated exists or can exist....if you believe it is not possible, please go troll somewhere else.

 

If you are like me and tired of reading all the craziness regarding interconnects, cables, daisy chaining usb toys, etc, and would like an integrated that you can just buy and call it a day, this thread may be for you. 

 

I love my aging mcintosh integrated amp, and look forward to replacing it with something more modern and that has a good digital interface (enet and/or usb), please share....

 

I know mcintosh makes one, and they just recently came out with a lower end unit with a digital module so the module can be upgraded in future (MA5300 & MA7200)...so this may be of interest, but their current dac module doesn't have enet and the dac chips are older (either 9016 or 9018, i forget) and don't have any isolation circuitry on it's usb input.  I have been informed that they are working on a newer DAC module, so if/when that is released, i may go that route.  In the mean time I am curious if there are any other notable integrateds with a good DSD capable digital input (enet and/or usb)?

 

I have heard good things about the "Parasound Halo integrated", but haven't researched as of yet, but since i cancelled my las vegas ces trip, I have decided i am going to start researching if there are any notable integrateds either now or in the works?

 

Again, Please no responses from those that don't believe that a respectable integrated can exist...your input is not desired...I am sure the likes of GUTB will respond anyway, hopefully no others, that don't have the input I am looking for.

 

I've a friend with the Parasound Integrated. I haven't heard it yet, but he's crazy about it and I trust his ears. I replaced an Audio Research SP-11 pre-amp and a pair of VTL 140 mono-block power amps with a Harman Kardon HK990 a couple of years ago, and haven't looked back. The Harman Kardon is better in every way, especially in sound quality. I was really amazed at how much better my Martin-Logan Vistas sounded with the solid-state integrated than they had with the tubed gear. 

[gmgraves]

14 hours ago, GUTB said:

The problems with all-in-ones is as follows:

 

Noise. These things have several systems in one box, and each one needs different voltages. 5v, 3.3v, 12v, etc. The correct, high quality way to deal with this is to have a separate power supply and transformer for each system. To keep costs and size down, having 4-5 seperate power linear power supplies is a no-go. So the solution...crappy DC-DC conversion. Switching noise. Then there’s the noise from all the computing parts, noise from the amp circuit, vibrating toroid, heat, radio signals from the WiFi transmitter, etc and so on.

 

Space. What do all high quality linear amps have in common? Large transformers, large capacitor banks, and many output devices attached to large heatsinks. In an AiO, which has to be the size of a lifestyle product that goes on a shelf, doesn’t have the room for just the amp, let alone the pre circuits and digital systems. The solution? Compact and cut down the amp and pre circuits as much as possible. 

It must be nice when you can make decisions based on unfounded assumptions and incorrect suppositions about things of which you have no actual knowledge. The only problem with correctly designed all-In-ones (integrated and receivers) is that when something goes wrong with one aspect of the all-in-one, it usually affects everything, especially if it's power supply problem. With separates, if the preamp fails, the power amp will still function and vice versa. The actuality is that A well designed integrated can be every bit as good sonically as separates, and often better than some.

[gmgraves]

4 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

And yet you don’t bother with integrated systems. It’s common knowledge in audiophilia that separates are better than integrated (at the high end).

 

It's only common knowledge to snobs who rate everything based on priced (the more expensive, the better it must be. Must'n it?) and know-it-alls who form opinions in a vacuum, without the benefit of the slightest knowledge or insight into the subject.

 

If you think that separates are better than integrated in general, why don't you tell that to Nelson Pass, the people at Perla Audio (who's $13K "Signature 50" integrated has FOUR toroidal transformers, and 264,000 µFD in the power supply), The People at NAIM, Dartzeel, and Musical Fidelity, to name a few! 

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

I stated what the generally well-known consensus is. I provided technical reasons. 

 

 

To begin with, that there exists such a consensus, is wrong. Nobody who knows what they are talking about would make such an asinine statement. Secondly, the "technical reasons" you stated are have no basis in reality as universal fact. Everything is a design decision and poor ones and good ones can be made in the realm of integrated amplifiers just as in anything else. IOW, you're wrong again.

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

Quick research into the topic shows the opposite.

 

"Integrated can be just as good or better than separate" is a truism, but a meaningless one. Audio gear exists in reality, not in rhetoric. In the reality of design contradictions placed on designers trying to bring gear to market, integrated is a trade-off in the favor of cost. Everyone here perfectly understands this, but some of you guys are saddled with the need for me to be wrong.

 

No one is saddled with the need for you to be wrong. You do that very well for yourself. Please explain why "Integrated amps can be just as good as or better than separates" is a meaningless truism? I'm sure there are lots of high-end designers in this business who would disagree rather strenuously with you. I was at Burning Amp a number of years ago when Nelson Pass unveiled his first Integrated, the INT-150. He said that it was every bit as good as any set of separates he's ever built, and in fact the circuit for the pre-amp section was better than his then current top-of-his-line separate preamp. Luckily for you, his current integrated amps are quite expensive. The 60WPC INT-60 is US$9000, and the 250WPC INT-250 is US$12,000. That should tell you all you need to know about Pass's Integrateds. Of course if you need to spend more than that to assuage your audio nervosa, there's always the DarTZeeL CTH-8550 Integrated for US$25,500 or for even more, the Dan D'Agostino's Momentum Integrated at 200WPC. It's US$45,000! That ought to really get your juices flowing! Believe me, there's no design compromises going on with any of these Integrated amps and that fact is anything but a "meaningless truism"! 

 

Interesting that you deigned not to post your "quick research into the topic (that) shows the opposite".

 

GUTB, you must really enjoy putting your foot in your mouth, my friend!

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

The Gryphon Diablo, very likely one of the best integrated amps on the planet:

 

Channel Separation: 120 dbl
Bandwidth (-3 dB): 0.1 Hz to 250 kHz
Power Supply Capacity: 2 x 60,000 µF

 

Now the Mephisto Stereo:

 

Channel Separation: INFINITE
Bandwidth (-3 dB): 0.1 Hz to 400 kHz
Power Supply Capacity: 2 x 250,000 µF

 

Since we're checking out high-end gear...

 

Boulder 865 (Integrated):

 

Channel Separation: 112 dbl
Bandwidth (-3 dB): 0.015 Hz to 95 kHz
 

Boulder 860 (Stereo):

 

Channel Separation: 112 dbl
Bandwidth (-3 dB): 0.015 Hz to 150 kHz

 

(It should be noted that Boulder doesn't offer an integrated anywhere except in their bottom tier).

 

You do realize that none of these specs you quoted mean anything whatsoever?!! The difference between 112 and 120 dB of channel separation is meaningless. Bandwidth beyond 50 KHz is meaningless. And power supply capacity  as a stand-alone specification is also less than meaningless.

 

What are you trying to say with these specifications? 

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

 

It’s just common knowledge. Check any audiophile forum, and that is the large consensus. I didn’t make it up. Also, it’s a simple fact that high-end manufacturers treat integrated systems as a part of their value tier, not competitive with their finest. That’s the reality of the integrated.

 

Repeating the same wrong information over and over and over again will not make it true. It is not common knowledge. There is simply  no technical reason for an Integrated to be inferior to separates and your incantations to the contrary will not change that simple fact. 

[gmgraves]

54 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Not many audiophiles post in General....

 

Actually this thread is way off topic from AiO (integrated with digital inputs / streaming). That is different product category than traditional integrateds.

 

Everybody who posts here in "General" is an audiophile. Everyone who posts on CA is, by definition an audiophile EVEN YOU!

 

I see that when it becomes clear to you that you are soundly losing this argument, it's time to remind your opponents that the thread has wandered off-topic. Well, thank you for the heads-up!

[gmgraves]

57 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

No idea what you are trying to say here...

 

He's trying to say that the people who post on the General Forum of CA aren't really audiophiles (funny, I see the same handles in the other forums as I see here). IOW, he's trying to insult those of us here who don't buy his elitist bullshit by intimating that we aren't really audiophiles because we post in this "General" forum. Obviously, the Irony is lost on GUTB that he posts in "General" too!

[gmgraves]

2 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

It isn't even original. It's something he stole from Sandy Alex.

 

For course, it makes no sense when you consider that "General" is simply a catchall category where people start threads that don't fit neatly anywhere else.

 

I know that, and you know that, but GUTB is an audio snob, and believing that people who post here are, by definition, less than audiophiles, feeds into his insecurities and his need to feel superior to his opponents in a debate. The irony is that everything he writes shows that he really doesn't know very much about the subjects he pontificates about and that he is the one who is inferior in these debates, not his opponents. 

[gmgraves]

5 hours ago, GUTB said:

So in terms of respectable integrated units, there are some — the Gryphon Diablo and Esoteric F-series we know about. Probably Luxmans fall somewhere underneath these options. The direct-digital units like the NAD Masters and Lyndgorf are wildcards. Are there any inexpensive respectable integrateds? Does such a thing exist on the planet Earth (outside of Chinese clones)?

 

That question has been asked and answered several times on this and other forums lately; yet you continue to ask it? Of course, I suspect, from reading your posts that your definition of both "respectable" and "inexpensive" are different from the way most of the rest of us would define those words. 

But to run down the list somewhat, again, Accuphase makes several as does Luxman, So do Marantz and Yamaha. The former aren't cheap, but compared to similar products from Perla, Pass and especially Dan D'Agostino, they are reasonably inexpensive. Krell makes an excellent integrated, The Krell Vanguard at $4500. None of these are astronomically priced. I borrowed a Krell Vanguard for a time, and I can tell you that it is a superb-sounding amp (I just don't like push-button volume controls). I own a Krell KA-300i, which, although no longer in production,  likewise was considered one of the best amps of its day, and it was less than $3K. I'm not using the KA-300i, but keep it as a backup. Of course my enthusiasm for the $2500 Harman Kardon HK990 is boundless. As an integrated amp, it checks all the right boxes for versatility, usability, and, the all important, sound quality which is up there with the very best in amplifier performance. 

I don't expect you to agree as I sense that you have heard none of them and seem to judge everything on price alone. 

[gmgraves]

5 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

I see there are 2 different models of hk990 do you have a 1989 hk990 vxi or a more recent one?  an avr?

 

 

I have the more recent one. I got it in 2014. It is 150 WPC dual-mono design (separate power transformers for each channel), has built in room correction DSP, a built-in dual differential 24/192 DAC (that I don't use because it's a Delta-Sigma design, the sound of which, I don't particularly care for. I only really like R2R DACs). Mine is audio only and is an integrated amp (with lots of features, to be sure), not a receiver. It sounds magnificent (as every review has said, and as every audiophile who has heard mine can attest! It was also a bargain. I have an acquaintance who owns a company that makes very expensive power amps, preamps and integrated amps. When he heard my HK990, he kept asking, in a tone of total disbelief: "How much did you say this amp cost, again?" His integrated (though nice) is only 50 WPC into 8Ω and costs $13K!

[gmgraves]

On 2/11/2018 at 10:39 AM, bobbmd said:

i have a 2005 yamaha rx-v2500 with all bells whistles at that time still works great and i play with all sorts DSP selections including THX neo music etc and different halls/theaters etc only thing the GUI no longer works for room calibration and there is no USB port

i'll bet newer Yamaha or Onyko(sic) integrateds are even better and inexpensive also try that 'retro'

Outlaw Audio 2 channel stereo integrated

That's the only real complaint I have about my HK990. No USB input for the rather nice sounding fully balanced (with FOUR AMD 24/192 DACs) Delta-Sigma DAC section. I used the IFi USB>SPDIF adapter for a while until I stopped using it and went back to my 10-year old Assemblage 24/96 R2R, or ladder DAC (R2R, IMHO, just sounds better that Delta Sigma).