iPad Pro or Mac Airbook for server?

[MikeyFresh]

I'm curious now why my other friend, in Canada, said he couldn't seem to make an Android device a Roon endpoint after the 1.4 update.

 

Any successful testing there, or just iOS at this point?

[asdf1000]

35 minutes ago, MikeyFresh said:

I'm curious now why my other friend, in Canada, said he couldn't seem to make an Android device a Roon endpoint after the 1.4 update.

 

Any successful testing there, or just iOS at this point?

 

Hmm I can test it myself tomorrow and report back.

 

I haven’t seen it reported anywhere on the Roon forum so far since the 1.4 update though. But I’ll test myself.

 

[One and a half]

Everything is working transmitting files to the DAC as per the sample rate of the file, from the core to the iPad -> Lightning connector -> DAC. The m920 DAC only accepts maximum DSD(128) as DoP, for the sake of this exercise, the concept works.

 

The fly in the ointment is Apple - Roon combo (?). The digital out on the lightning connector shows full volume on the control centre, however the final output is only a fraction. Compared to other inputs, as a guess, about 10-20db lower than other line inputs to the preamp. The volume gain on the m920 is set at 96% which works fine for the myTuner app, as the volume compared from that app through the lightning connector/ CCK on the other preamp inputs, like FM radio are about the same, but for Roon is way down. 

 

One way around this, is to convert to USB -> AES3, then use a pro amp to tweak the gain to max +20db, then use the analog out to trim the output on the DAC's volume or have a DAC with volume settings to 200%, if there is such a beast.

 

Or Roon adds a volume control to the iPad zone, taking into consideration the low level gain from the iPad.

 

To @davide256, perhaps if you want a solution right now, is to use the MacBookAir instead.

 

For Roon to control the iPad, the remote control app for Roon on the iPad needs to be active on screen, and not as a background app.

 

[davide256]

Some interesting conversation here.  Looks like @MikeyFresh  agrees that the iPad is a better endpoint device than the Macbook Air. @Em2016  are you saying that running an iPad as Roon endpoint is possible? If so, can that sound as good as locally stored music? Or were you suggesting an android device, if so which device?

[davide256]

48 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Everything is working transmitting files to the DAC as per the sample rate of the file, from the core to the iPad -> Lightning connector -> DAC. The m920 DAC only accepts maximum DSD(128) as DoP, for the sake of this exercise, the concept works.

 

The fly in the ointment is Apple - Roon combo (?). The digital out on the lightning connector shows full volume on the control centre, however the final output is only a fraction. Compared to other inputs, as a guess, about 10-20db lower than other line inputs to the preamp. The volume gain on the m920 is set at 96% which works fine for the myTuner app, as the volume compared from that app through the lightning connector/ CCK on the other preamp inputs, like FM radio are about the same, but for Roon is way down. 

 

One way around this, is to convert to USB -> AES3, then use a pro amp to tweak the gain to max +20db, then use the analog out to trim the output on the DAC's volume or have a DAC with volume settings to 200%, if there is such a beast.

 

Or Roon adds a volume control to the iPad zone, taking into consideration the low level gain from the iPad.

 

To @davide256, perhaps if you want a solution right now, is to use the MacBookAir instead.

 

For Roon to control the iPad, the remote control app for Roon on the iPad needs to be active on screen, and not as a background app.

 

do you see the same issue with PCM? I'm not concerned about DSD as long as it can be transcoded to PCM.

[One and a half]

26 minutes ago, davide256 said:

do you see the same issue with PCM? I'm not concerned about DSD as long as it can be transcoded to PCM.

Yes, the DAC sees everything to its maximum of 384kHz. Whatever Roon plays in PCM, 96, 192, 48 etc. the DAC displays the same sample rate.

[asdf1000]

2 hours ago, One and a half said:

The fly in the ointment is Apple - Roon combo (?). The digital out on the lightning connector shows full volume on the control centre, however the final output is only a fraction. Compared to other inputs, as a guess, about 10-20db lower

 

Something is not right and I’m sure we can find the issue.

 

Can you post your Roon signal path? Like the one I showed earlier with the guy doing DSD256 out of the iPad.

 

This will tell us what is happening. You should also go into audio settings for the zone and select fixed volume and ‘set to max’ - not use DSP or Mixer volume.

 

My guess is volume levelling is turned on for a 10db drop.

 

We’ll find the fly :-) There should be no need for a workaround involving other inputs.

 

When playback is bit perfect, all volume on all software is identical (for a given input) in my previous testing. So the volume differences are caused by some form of DSP/volume adjustment

[One and a half]

8 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Something is not right and I’m sure we can find the issue.

 

Can you post your Roon signal path? Like the one I showed earlier with the guy doing DSD256 out of the iPad.

 

This will tell us what is happening. You should also go into audio settings for the zone and select fixed volume and ‘set to max’ - not DSP or Mixer volume.

 

I reckon you have volume levelling turned on for a 10db drop.

 

We’ll find the fly :-)

Here's the panel for the iPad

 

 

An alternative was to use "Device Volume" but at 60-88% nothing much happens, but at least the volume matches the other line inputs.

[asdf1000]

4 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Here's the panel for the iPad

 

 

An alternative was to use "Device Volume" but at 60-88% nothing much happens, but at least the volume matches the other line inputs.

 

Ok and the Roon signal path, during playback that is 10-20dB lower?

 

Click that little purple/blue 'light' or 'star'.

 

Should show something like the  below link I sent earlier. This tells you everything happening to the signal.

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/roon-1-4-feedback/35229/153

 

Send a screenshot through if you can.

 

[One and a half]

5 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Ok and the Roon signal path, during playback that is 10-20dB lower?

 

Click that little purple/blue 'light' or 'star'.

 

Should show something like the  below link I sent earlier. This tells you everything happening to the signal.

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/roon-1-4-feedback/35229/153

 

Send a screenshot through if you can.

 

Here's a shot that works well

 

for the iPad, changed to Device Volume. Also switched off the DSP actions. It's working better now.

[asdf1000]

2 minutes ago, One and a half said:

for the iPad, changed to Device Volume. Also switched off the DSP actions. It's working better now.

 

Great! Yes Roon's 'lossless' signal path means bit-perfect and sounds identical (in volume) to any/all other players I've used (as it should).

 

Sorry I mis-guided with changing to 'fixed volume'. Logic failed me there.

 

Volume level differences are always due to DSP or digital volume adjustment somewhere in the software, for a given input. Otherwise it's not truely bit perfect.

 

The DirectStream was good with their FPGA bit perfect test file for validating all of that (for myself).

 

So how's the sound !? Your SQ comments yesterday weren't positive. Hopefully SQ is better now with DoP working and volume being level matched.

 

[asdf1000]

8 hours ago, MikeyFresh said:

I'm curious now why my other friend, in Canada, said he couldn't seem to make an Android device a Roon endpoint after the 1.4 update.

 

Any successful testing there, or just iOS at this point?

 

I tested with my old BlackBerry DTEK50 running the old Android 6.0.1 and it works. Even grouped playback with my iPhone, so both are in sync with each other. No issues for me.

 

Maybe something he needs to raise with Roon support to see what's happened.

 

 

[davide256]

Playing around now with Roon to my iDevices, liking what I hear better than microRendu, just fuller sound, dynamics and hard transients playing CD quality music. Moving on next to high rez music.That CCK/USPCB connection from iDevice to Eitr is awkward, wondering if a better  option exists?

[asdf1000]

6 minutes ago, davide256 said:

That CCK/USPCB connection from iDevice to Eitr is awkward, wondering if a better  option exists?

 

You can try a short USB cable instead of the USPCB if it's physically awkward.

 

But the CCK with USB out is the only digital way out of an iDevice.

 

Well bluetooth works too but then you need a bluetooth receiver and high res is no longer an option. The bluetooth option is good for kitchen, bedroom, garage, boombox endpoints around the house though.

[One and a half]

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

Playing around now with Roon to my iDevices, liking what I hear better than microRendu, just fuller sound, dynamics and hard transients playing CD quality music. Moving on next to high rez music.That CCK/USPCB connection from iDevice to Eitr is awkward, wondering if a better  option exists?

I tried an lightning extension cable, didn't work. For another digital out though, the Apple CCK is it.

I think there are headphone amps that accept lightning connections, but there's the trade off already in another D/A conversion. For fun, try the Apple 3.5mm to lightning DAC, you won't have it running for long.

[One and a half]

Hmm, the post on SQ vanished... oh well.

 

Thumbs up for the Roon/iPad/CCK/USB out. Certainly doesn't cause any degradation, the way the test is setup, I compare the signature of the two DACs in different zones playing the same tracks and cabling rather than the signal source itself. Tomorrow if vantage is available, can try with the MPD-3 direct. If that works out OK, then the likes of an Aries has some very tough competition. If the predicted image problem takes place, then it's all power supplies and some signal integrity to adopt, usual practices. 

 

This will be using RAAT exclusively and not HQ Player, a plus with less overhead, cause the upsampling in HQ player really bothers me.

[One and a half]

Strike 1. MPD-3 DAC PCM sample rate changes, don't change when played from the iPad. No DSD native possible, the DAC can accept either DoP or native. Sample rates work when the USB cable is unplugged/replugged. The PCM sound when it does come through is very, very good.

 

Strike 2. MPD-3 can only play DSD through Roon on cable via DoP. Yuk. Sibilance rears its ugly head.. Looks as though HQ Player as an audio zone is the only alternative for the MPD-3.

 

Strike 3. Playback Designs aren't tested by Roon.

[asdf1000]

49 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Strike 1. MPD-3 DAC PCM sample rate changes, don't change when played from the iPad.

 

I don't understand this one. It's bit perfect with PCM with the iPad. But it's not bit-perfect with PCM when used with what?

 

 

47 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Strike 2. MPD-3 can only play DSD through Roon on cable via DoP.

 

Ya when I look at the Playback Designs manual: 

 

"The Mac platform can support DSD file playback only via the DoP protocol at single and double rates"

 

So assume it's the same with iOS. This is a platform limitation, not Roon limitation.

 

48 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Strike 3. Playback Designs aren't tested by Roon.

 

This isn't so critical. It's working as it should with the iPad right, it seems? It's just that it sounds crap! At least you gave it a crack 

[asdf1000]

55 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

So assume it's the same with iOS. This is a platform limitation, not Roon limitation.

 

What I mean by this is: a Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (or 3) tablet running Windows and Roon Remote app, will play Native DSD.

 

[davide256]

All good playing 192/24 and DSD below 512. As Roon endpoints I now have working iPad Mini 2, microRendu, iPhone 6 plus which is also the order in which performance improves, at least with 16 bit music. The defect of the iPads is that they can't be remote controlled whereas the microRendu can. Is there an android device equivalent or better to the iPhone 6 that can be remote controlled for Roon output?

 

[asdf1000]

7 hours ago, davide256 said:

The defect of the iPads is that they can't be remote controlled

 

Hi Davide, did you turn private zone off, for the iPad you are trying to remote control? 

 

[One and a half]

On the topic of the 'cable', the computer's USB output was wired to the MPD-3 DAC, without the iPad just using Roon as a 'straight' player.

The driver is on the host PC, so Roon should pickup and play DSD native, like Jriver or HQPlayer. Problem was Roon could not play DSD native to the DAC, I had to use DoP.  All other zones were not selected, so there should not have been control from other sources for the same thing.

When that didn't work, I tried the DP-720 USB input from the same host PC, that worked for a couple of tracks at different fs, after about the third track, the DAC lost comms.  

After this dilemma, tried HQPlayer to play directly and it couldn't detect the DP-720 either, nor could device manager or the player's control panel. On that note, gave up and removed Roon, don't need the stress. This morning's task is to check what went wrong on the DP-720.

[asdf1000]

16 minutes ago, One and a half said:

the computer's USB output was wired to the MPD-3 DAC, without the iPad just using Roon as a 'straight' player.

The driver is on the host PC, so Roon should pickup and play DSD native, like Jriver or HQPlayer. Problem was Roon could not play DSD native to the DAC, I had to use DoP. 

 

Assuming you mean Roon on host PC which is Windows, I agree. Should be no problem at all.

 

Did you change from DoP to Native in Roon, on your Windows PC?

 

I don't have the option for Native showing here for me because this is a TOSlink output but this is where you'd see it:

 

Can you post a screenshot for what you see.

 

By the way, just for others reading this : it doesn't matter if the host PC is Windows and the host supports Native DSD. If the endpoint feeding the DAC is Mac/iOS, native DSD won't work. If the endpoint is Linux, you are at the mercy of Native DSD being supported for your DAC (many are, some aren't).

 

[asdf1000]

20 minutes ago, One and a half said:

On that note, gave up and removed Roon, don't need the stress.

 

Whoops. Just saw this. Well at least you tried!

 

Hmmm as a trouble shooter I'd still love to find the root cause here and am sure it can be easily solved, just like getting DoP to work for you and getting volume levels playing normally were easily solved.

 

But I too hate stress so understand if you want to drop Roon like a sack of potatoes :-)

 

[One and a half]

The problem with the DP-720 is a Centrance driver. It works fine on 44.1kHz, but anything else mutes signal randomly, this is with either HQPlayer or Jriver's buffers wound to the max. Either the standard 'high speed' Windows or the supplied driver behave the same. On another PC, the driver refused to load, since it's unsigned, so that's the end of that.

It's a shame and deadly annoying, cause red-book playback has such a wide sound-stage, and very 'musical', lots of air.... Time to stoke the flames and annoy the vendor.

 

An alternative is USB to MC-1.2 and convert to coax S/PDIF or TOSLINK. I do have a parallel CAT5e cable which can be used for an AES3 transmission from the MC-1.2 and convert to coax S/PDIF via a transformer for remote operation.

 

Better get stuck into that before Cinderella's appointment becomes due tonight.