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may i know your favore audio cable to connect your dac to you amply? avoid please copper 99.9 cables


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1 hour ago, GUTB said:

 

What was the result of your last listening test?

 

I'll tell you mine. It's been a while, but the last cable "shoot-out" in which I participated, a carefully arranged double blind test showed that sonic differences heard between ordinary, inexpensive Monster interconnects and some really expensive ones from Kimber and AudioQuest disappeared into thin air in the DBT. Nobody on the listening panel could tell one form the other, which is, of course, what the physics would predict.

George

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5 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

George, did you test various levels of EMI surrounding the components? My impression given my own tests, is that audible differences between cables are largely due to shielding etc ie noise, but haven’t spent the time you have investigating this (I just use balanced XLR and don’t worry ;) 

 

That's possible. After all, in unbalanced cables, the shield carries current (the signal) and is thus, er, unshielded. But all unbalanced cables would be equally susceptible. So-called quasi-balanced (which most "boutique" cables seem to be) might be a little better at that especially if a "star" grounding technique to used for all the shield ends. Frankly I've never had that problem, so I've never noticed differences in cables on that account. Now, I have heard what I thought were differences between the sound of a system with different interconnects, but alas, every time such a "revelation" was followed by a DBT of that cable against a more mundane example. The differences disappear. So, for many years now, I've just ignored cable "differences" when I think I hear them. :)

 

But as I've said, if you think that a new interconnect, or any other unlikely addition to your system makes it sound better to you, then it probably does. If it causes you to enjoy your system more, then it's probably worth it and I say go for it.

George

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1 hour ago, GUTB said:

— there’s an audible difference between interconnects.

 

You think there's an audible difference. but I'll guarantee you that in a properly set-up and executed DBT, those audible differences will evaporate like morning dew in the desert. The phenomenon is caused by a combination of expectational and confirmation bias. Your brain is delivering the listening result that it believes you want. Remember, your ears are not dispassionate instruments. There is no hearing function without the brain and the brain continuously colors every sense. Unfortunately, we humans cannot easily control our brain's tendency to alter reality. That's why bias free testing procedures must be developed to separate sensory bias from reality.

In the audio hobby, it's really not that important. One should do whatever it takes to cause them to to enjoy their systems more. If that's a belief that cables can improve the sound of one's system, then so be it. 

 

I only brought up the reality of cable sound from a physics standpoint because the OP seemed to not have much money to spend on cables and I wanted to reassure him that his inability (or unwillingness) to spend a small fortune on boutique cables will not relegate him audio purgatory. That many accurate, fine sounding systems (including my own) exist without a single high-priced boutique brand interconnect in it anywhere. 

George

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15 hours ago, Allan F said:

 

No, the cheapest and most expensive cables don't sound exactly the same, George. Some interconnect cables sound the same, while others may sound noticeably different. That has certainly been my experience in the many years I have enjoyed this hobby. You have been beating this drum too long. The problem with most of these DBTs has been  discussed many times and need not be repeated.

 

Yeah, I have been beating this drum too long, and believe me, I did hesitate before posting, but as I've said elsewhere this morning, I only brought up the reality of cable sound from a physics standpoint because the OP seemed to not have much money to spend on cables and I wanted to reassure him that his inability (or unwillingness) to spend a small fortune on boutique cables will not relegate him to audio purgatory. I wanted him to know that many accurate, fine sounding systems (including my own) exist without a single high-priced "boutique" brand interconnect in it anywhere. 

Normally, my attitude has been that if it sounds good to you, do it, and to hell with the naysayers (and so called "subjectivists")me included. But this fellow seemed to think that without an expensive "boutique" interconnect between his DAC and his amplifier, that he was doomed to have to live with second-rate sound and that just ain't so! 

 

George

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1 minute ago, GUTB said:

Of course, a properly executed DBT takes far more resources than anyone can be reasonably expected to have. So, suggesting that DBTs evaporate differences between cables as if that is a common and expected outcome is misinformation.

 

Actually, effective cable DBTs are really easy to set up. It's DBTs with active components that are a bitch!

2 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Why did my expectation bias make a cable costing hundreds of dollars sound WORSE than some pair of $40 cables I dug up from the basement? Why did it improve over time to sounding no different? Of course you don't know, because the premise of "expectation bias" in relation to audio is at best a not well understood phenomena. Why is it that when some guy at Harman makes blog post about an experiment he did many years ago the result proves an immutable fact of reality forever?

 

Better or worse are pure subjective differences (one man's fine wine is another man's poison, after all.) and not really relevant to this point of psychoacoustics. The relevant part is that two otherwise identical cables would sound different from one another on a casual audition, and then those differences would instantly disappear in a DBT. You're right, I have no idea why your experience unfolded as it did. And the part one's brain plays in listening is not anywhere nearly as well understood as it needs to be in order resolve some these issues. Perhaps someday it will be. 

George

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3 hours ago, Speedskater said:

I would say that an audiophile cable might introduce more noise or interference than a well chosen cable,

 

Yeah, if it's defective. Poor connections can actually form primitive diodes and act like them at some frequencies. This causes half of the waveform to not get conducted (back-biasing the diode), causing horrid distortion at those frequencies, while at other frequencies the connection acts fairly normal. Cold solder-joints can do this too. Good quality materials such as RG59U coax and well soldered RCA connectors on each end as well as an effective strain relief will insure that the interconnect is a reliable conductor over the entire audio spectrum. You can't really ask for more than that and expect to actually get it! :)

George

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32 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I don't see anything unusual about the Belden 8402 mic cable - I bet it is well made and will sound as good as all the others...

 

 

BTW< was looking at a Benchmark white paper the other day and they WERE able to measure distortion at speaker cable connections - they like and sell cables with Neutrik connectors

 

Speaker connections carry a lot of current. Loose, dirty, or poor connections are going to be extremely susceptible to causing distortion. Air-tight connections of clean surfaces are de-riguer here. Much more so than with interconnects which are small signal cables and too a point more forgiving of less than optimum connections.  

George

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Just now, beerandmusic said:

 

are they talking about using 8402 for speaker cables or rca connects?

 

i thought it was being suggested for rca connects similar to how the coax cable was mentioned using bnc -> rca adapters

image.thumb.png.c4d17b0bc80f9f01470f3fc8c8fef69c.png

 

No, I think they mean Speakon connectors. Most sound reinforcement amps used them these days, and I've read that that they provide a much more gas-tight and positive (not to mention reliable) speaker connection than do bananas and other five-way binding post solutions. 

George

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19 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

but do you believe the belden 8402 or the other mentioned coax ( K_02232 ) would be excellent for either rca or speaker cable connects, right?

 

The idea of using coax with shielding probably makes sense for either speaker cables and rca connects?

 

image.png.1dbbfbdcc1db5ebbf6b59756d9ee55c6.png

 

I wouldn't use coax for speaker cable. First of all, there's no advantage to using shielded cable in such an application, and secondly speaker cable needs fairly heavy conductors (usually 14 gauge of bigger) and coax, even balanced coax just isn't big enough. There was a time when using coax for speaker cable could have made the transistor power amps unstable enough to go into ultra-sonic oscillation causing them to self-destruct due to thermal runaway. I don't think that there are any modern amps with that problem. 

George

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  • 4 weeks later...
3 hours ago, bigbob said:

I would love to agree, that these Nordost Valhalla speaker ribbons sound the same as the Monster Cable speaker wire that looked like lamp cord.

 

I appreciate the expertise of @gmgraves and his astute observations about the physics of wire, cable and interconnects.

 

I do not suffer from "I just spent$7800 on speaker cables, they better damn sound better"-syndrome because they were a gift. I have zero financial interest. I am using a Denon AVR-2805 and a pair of Large Advent Loudspeakers (particle board with vinyl wood covering). I also received the XOT crossover transducers. All three came as a unit, I just provided an electrical outlet and the Advents.

 

Call it psychometric imaging or some other meaningless buzz word, but I have never heard music with such clarity from these speakers. I can hear a difference.

 

There is no wizardry from Audiophile reviews to cause bias because before I heard these speaker ribbons on my Advents, I would have agreed--that wire is a conductor, and nothing more. I can not say that any longer without a degree of mendacity.

Well, since I have never asserted that speaker cables can't make a difference, we don't have a beef. Speakers are complex, often very reactive loads and how they interact with the amplifier driving them can make a difference. It all depends on the load the combination of various speakers with various speaker cables can present to the amp. Unfortunately, There's no way to know beforehand how well a certain combination will perform until you actually try it and then there are some speakers (like Magnepans) that are such a simple load that speaker cables from the cheapest Monster (as you noted) to the most expensive Nordost won't make much, if any difference. My cable comments apply to interconnects where the drive voltage and currents are low and where the low output impedance of one component is generally driving the high input impedance of another and the pathway between them is relatively short. 

 

George

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4 hours ago, semente said:

 

I got this table from Roger Russell's website but I've seen similar information in many other places. Apparently 20 gauge is enough for most applications. Is this wrong?

 

Maximum Wire Lengths For TWO CONDUCTOR Copper Wire

Wire Size

2 ohm load

4 ohm load

6 ohm load

8 ohm load

22 AWG

3 feet max

6 feet max

9 feet max

12 feet max

20 AWG

5 feet max

10 feet max

15 feet max

20 feet max

18 AWG

8 feet max

16 feet max

24 feet max

32 feet max

16 AWG

12 feet max

24 feet max

36 feet max

48 feet max

14 AWG

20 feet max

40 feet max

60 feet**

80 feet**

12 AWG

30 feet max

60 feet**

90 feet**

120  feet**

10 AWG

50 feet max

100 feet**

150 feet**

200 feet**

 

That chart, seems to me, represents "conventional wisdom". IOW, the maths works out. However, my gut feeling is that powering a pair of expensive, high-end speakers with a 150 WPC (or greater) amplifier over 22 Gauge wire is just not that simple* in this day and age, especially when you can get 12 Gauge, OFC, 259 strand speaker wire terminated with really high-quality banana plugs on both ends from SewellDirect.com for $15 for a 10 ft cable (and slightly cheaper (!) from Amazon - look for Silverback speaker cable). The stuff is ready to go out of the package, the bananas fit so tightly that you could pick up most desktop speakers by the cable and the plugs wouldn't pull out! At these prices, why fool with bulk cable at all when this cable is available so cheaply, is made in USA (Sewell is in Utah)and is such good quality. 

 

*Remember, highly reactive speakers can be cable sensitive.   

George

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