Popular Post gmgraves Posted December 28, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2017 14 hours ago, gaia said: hi may i ask your favorite cable to connect your dac to your amply? let's avoid the copper 99.9% cable just because they are so exansive i have tried ugreen and urgen ,haven't found any differences i found this link cable review they put amazon cable the best may i know you feebacks? thanks Audio interconnect cables have no effect on sound quality. The cheapest (perhaps from Amazon or other sources like mycablemart.com) and the worlds most expensive (such as Nordost Valhalla II) sound exactly alike. If you find that you hear a difference, your ears are most likely playing tricks on you. At some point, audio interconnects cross the line from being functional products known as conductors to being "audio bling". If that's what you want, go for it, by all means. But if it's simple audio performance and only audio performance that you are looking for, buy cables with good build quality, decent molded strain reliefs, made from quality RG59U coaxial cable. These will give you a good, gas-tight connection, low reactance, and absolutely no measurable or audible signal loss over the few meters between your DAC and your amplifier. Keep this in mind, even cables sold as making one's stereo system sound better, by definition, are subtractive. If (and that's a big if) they sound different from other cables, it's because they are removing something from the signal that the other cable is not removing (or vice versa). It is physically impossible for a conductor to add anything to the sound, it's just a piece of wire and wire is passive. mansr and sarvsa 2 George Link to comment
Popular Post gmgraves Posted December 29, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted December 29, 2017 1 hour ago, GUTB said: This is misinformation. Even if you don’t believe in anything that can’t be measured objectively and even if you discount indirect factors like vibration control, there are objective, measurable aspects of an interconnect cable that does impact sound. Inductance, capacitance, etc. There’s a reason why virtually all high-end cable manufacturers moved to OCC copper. There’s a reason why manufacturers go to such lengths to make air dielectric cables. No, this is not misinformation. Once again my friend, you are the victim of "a little knowledge being a dangerous thing"! Yes, inductance and capacitance do affect the measurable aspects of cables. If we were talking about frequencies of 10 MHz or greater, I would agree with you. But we're not. If you were talking about interconnect runs of fifty feet or more, I would agree with you. But again, we're not. We're discussing, at most, a 50 KHz bandwidth here (and that's pushing it). At audio frequencies, the effects of capacitive and inductive reactance in cables with a half to, at most, three meters in length is inaudible (being much less than a tenth of a dB) and damn near immeasurable! You can work out the maths though all you need to do is look up the cable specs from the manufacturer, and note the amount of capacitance and inductance per foot that the cable has, and then, using then highest frequency you are interested in (probably 20KHz) work out the impedance per foot at 20 KHz,, and work out the attenuation per foot in dB. Multiply that result by the number of feet of length of the cable under test. When you do, you will find that a 1-meter length of RG59U coax will attenuate a 20 KHz signal by far less than 1dB. NOBODY could possibly hear that or notice it in any way! If you have a cable that attenuates a 20KHz frequency more than that, then you're not talking about a conductor any more, you're talking about a filter and somewhere in that "cable" there are added capacitors and/or inductors, because plain cable can't have enough of either of those characteristics to have any affect on the conducted audio signal. RF, RADAR microwaves? A different story. OTOH, if you have a cable that is microphonic enough to be adversely affected by vibration, you have a very poorly designed and/or constructed cable. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that except for the possibility of an interconnect between a low-output moving coil cartridge and a MC preamp, it is damn near impossible for any interconnect to introduce any vibrational feedback into the system! And you are right about one thing. There is a reason why virtually all high-end cable manufacturers moved to OCC copper. There’s a reason why manufacturers go to such lengths to make air dielectric cables. They can charge more such "superior cables". I spent three years in the Lockheed Missile and Space Company's "Polaris/Poseidon cable laboratory". I have measured, stressed, destroyed, tested, and characterized every kind of cable and connector and dielectric and insulator known to science, and I think I have a pretty good understand of how cable works, what it's strengths and weaknesses are, and what it can and cannot do at every frequency from DC to daylight! I have environmentally tested cable on shake tables capable of mimicking a 9.0 earthquake, in temperatures approaching that of the sun and approaching absolute zero. I've tested them under water and in a complete vacuum. So, believe me or not, but you won't find anyone here who knows more about wire and cable characteristics, electrical, mechanical, or environmental than I do. Just saying..... mansr and wwaldmanfan 2 George Link to comment
gmgraves Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 1 hour ago, GUTB said: What was the result of your last listening test? I'll tell you mine. It's been a while, but the last cable "shoot-out" in which I participated, a carefully arranged double blind test showed that sonic differences heard between ordinary, inexpensive Monster interconnects and some really expensive ones from Kimber and AudioQuest disappeared into thin air in the DBT. Nobody on the listening panel could tell one form the other, which is, of course, what the physics would predict. George Link to comment
gmgraves Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 5 hours ago, jabbr said: George, did you test various levels of EMI surrounding the components? My impression given my own tests, is that audible differences between cables are largely due to shielding etc ie noise, but haven’t spent the time you have investigating this (I just use balanced XLR and don’t worry That's possible. After all, in unbalanced cables, the shield carries current (the signal) and is thus, er, unshielded. But all unbalanced cables would be equally susceptible. So-called quasi-balanced (which most "boutique" cables seem to be) might be a little better at that especially if a "star" grounding technique to used for all the shield ends. Frankly I've never had that problem, so I've never noticed differences in cables on that account. Now, I have heard what I thought were differences between the sound of a system with different interconnects, but alas, every time such a "revelation" was followed by a DBT of that cable against a more mundane example. The differences disappear. So, for many years now, I've just ignored cable "differences" when I think I hear them. But as I've said, if you think that a new interconnect, or any other unlikely addition to your system makes it sound better to you, then it probably does. If it causes you to enjoy your system more, then it's probably worth it and I say go for it. George Link to comment
gmgraves Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 1 hour ago, GUTB said: — there’s an audible difference between interconnects. You think there's an audible difference. but I'll guarantee you that in a properly set-up and executed DBT, those audible differences will evaporate like morning dew in the desert. The phenomenon is caused by a combination of expectational and confirmation bias. Your brain is delivering the listening result that it believes you want. Remember, your ears are not dispassionate instruments. There is no hearing function without the brain and the brain continuously colors every sense. Unfortunately, we humans cannot easily control our brain's tendency to alter reality. That's why bias free testing procedures must be developed to separate sensory bias from reality. In the audio hobby, it's really not that important. One should do whatever it takes to cause them to to enjoy their systems more. If that's a belief that cables can improve the sound of one's system, then so be it. I only brought up the reality of cable sound from a physics standpoint because the OP seemed to not have much money to spend on cables and I wanted to reassure him that his inability (or unwillingness) to spend a small fortune on boutique cables will not relegate him audio purgatory. That many accurate, fine sounding systems (including my own) exist without a single high-priced boutique brand interconnect in it anywhere. Sonicularity 1 George Link to comment
gmgraves Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 15 hours ago, Allan F said: No, the cheapest and most expensive cables don't sound exactly the same, George. Some interconnect cables sound the same, while others may sound noticeably different. That has certainly been my experience in the many years I have enjoyed this hobby. You have been beating this drum too long. The problem with most of these DBTs has been discussed many times and need not be repeated. Yeah, I have been beating this drum too long, and believe me, I did hesitate before posting, but as I've said elsewhere this morning, I only brought up the reality of cable sound from a physics standpoint because the OP seemed to not have much money to spend on cables and I wanted to reassure him that his inability (or unwillingness) to spend a small fortune on boutique cables will not relegate him to audio purgatory. I wanted him to know that many accurate, fine sounding systems (including my own) exist without a single high-priced "boutique" brand interconnect in it anywhere. Normally, my attitude has been that if it sounds good to you, do it, and to hell with the naysayers (and so called "subjectivists")me included. But this fellow seemed to think that without an expensive "boutique" interconnect between his DAC and his amplifier, that he was doomed to have to live with second-rate sound and that just ain't so! Ajax 1 George Link to comment
gmgraves Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 1 minute ago, GUTB said: Of course, a properly executed DBT takes far more resources than anyone can be reasonably expected to have. So, suggesting that DBTs evaporate differences between cables as if that is a common and expected outcome is misinformation. Actually, effective cable DBTs are really easy to set up. It's DBTs with active components that are a bitch! 2 minutes ago, GUTB said: Why did my expectation bias make a cable costing hundreds of dollars sound WORSE than some pair of $40 cables I dug up from the basement? Why did it improve over time to sounding no different? Of course you don't know, because the premise of "expectation bias" in relation to audio is at best a not well understood phenomena. Why is it that when some guy at Harman makes blog post about an experiment he did many years ago the result proves an immutable fact of reality forever? Better or worse are pure subjective differences (one man's fine wine is another man's poison, after all.) and not really relevant to this point of psychoacoustics. The relevant part is that two otherwise identical cables would sound different from one another on a casual audition, and then those differences would instantly disappear in a DBT. You're right, I have no idea why your experience unfolded as it did. And the part one's brain plays in listening is not anywhere nearly as well understood as it needs to be in order resolve some these issues. Perhaps someday it will be. George Link to comment
gmgraves Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 3 hours ago, Speedskater said: I would say that an audiophile cable might introduce more noise or interference than a well chosen cable, Yeah, if it's defective. Poor connections can actually form primitive diodes and act like them at some frequencies. This causes half of the waveform to not get conducted (back-biasing the diode), causing horrid distortion at those frequencies, while at other frequencies the connection acts fairly normal. Cold solder-joints can do this too. Good quality materials such as RG59U coax and well soldered RCA connectors on each end as well as an effective strain relief will insure that the interconnect is a reliable conductor over the entire audio spectrum. You can't really ask for more than that and expect to actually get it! George Link to comment
gmgraves Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 32 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: I don't see anything unusual about the Belden 8402 mic cable - I bet it is well made and will sound as good as all the others... BTW< was looking at a Benchmark white paper the other day and they WERE able to measure distortion at speaker cable connections - they like and sell cables with Neutrik connectors Speaker connections carry a lot of current. Loose, dirty, or poor connections are going to be extremely susceptible to causing distortion. Air-tight connections of clean surfaces are de-riguer here. Much more so than with interconnects which are small signal cables and too a point more forgiving of less than optimum connections. George Link to comment
gmgraves Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 Just now, beerandmusic said: are they talking about using 8402 for speaker cables or rca connects? i thought it was being suggested for rca connects similar to how the coax cable was mentioned using bnc -> rca adapters No, I think they mean Speakon connectors. Most sound reinforcement amps used them these days, and I've read that that they provide a much more gas-tight and positive (not to mention reliable) speaker connection than do bananas and other five-way binding post solutions. George Link to comment
gmgraves Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 19 minutes ago, beerandmusic said: but do you believe the belden 8402 or the other mentioned coax ( K_02232 ) would be excellent for either rca or speaker cable connects, right? The idea of using coax with shielding probably makes sense for either speaker cables and rca connects? I wouldn't use coax for speaker cable. First of all, there's no advantage to using shielded cable in such an application, and secondly speaker cable needs fairly heavy conductors (usually 14 gauge of bigger) and coax, even balanced coax just isn't big enough. There was a time when using coax for speaker cable could have made the transistor power amps unstable enough to go into ultra-sonic oscillation causing them to self-destruct due to thermal runaway. I don't think that there are any modern amps with that problem. jabbr 1 George Link to comment
gmgraves Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 3 hours ago, bigbob said: I would love to agree, that these Nordost Valhalla speaker ribbons sound the same as the Monster Cable speaker wire that looked like lamp cord. I appreciate the expertise of @gmgraves and his astute observations about the physics of wire, cable and interconnects. I do not suffer from "I just spent$7800 on speaker cables, they better damn sound better"-syndrome because they were a gift. I have zero financial interest. I am using a Denon AVR-2805 and a pair of Large Advent Loudspeakers (particle board with vinyl wood covering). I also received the XOT crossover transducers. All three came as a unit, I just provided an electrical outlet and the Advents. Call it psychometric imaging or some other meaningless buzz word, but I have never heard music with such clarity from these speakers. I can hear a difference. There is no wizardry from Audiophile reviews to cause bias because before I heard these speaker ribbons on my Advents, I would have agreed--that wire is a conductor, and nothing more. I can not say that any longer without a degree of mendacity. Well, since I have never asserted that speaker cables can't make a difference, we don't have a beef. Speakers are complex, often very reactive loads and how they interact with the amplifier driving them can make a difference. It all depends on the load the combination of various speakers with various speaker cables can present to the amp. Unfortunately, There's no way to know beforehand how well a certain combination will perform until you actually try it and then there are some speakers (like Magnepans) that are such a simple load that speaker cables from the cheapest Monster (as you noted) to the most expensive Nordost won't make much, if any difference. My cable comments apply to interconnects where the drive voltage and currents are low and where the low output impedance of one component is generally driving the high input impedance of another and the pathway between them is relatively short. George Link to comment
gmgraves Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 4 hours ago, semente said: I got this table from Roger Russell's website but I've seen similar information in many other places. Apparently 20 gauge is enough for most applications. Is this wrong? Maximum Wire Lengths For TWO CONDUCTOR Copper Wire Wire Size 2 ohm load 4 ohm load 6 ohm load 8 ohm load 22 AWG 3 feet max 6 feet max 9 feet max 12 feet max 20 AWG 5 feet max 10 feet max 15 feet max 20 feet max 18 AWG 8 feet max 16 feet max 24 feet max 32 feet max 16 AWG 12 feet max 24 feet max 36 feet max 48 feet max 14 AWG 20 feet max 40 feet max 60 feet** 80 feet** 12 AWG 30 feet max 60 feet** 90 feet** 120 feet** 10 AWG 50 feet max 100 feet** 150 feet** 200 feet** That chart, seems to me, represents "conventional wisdom". IOW, the maths works out. However, my gut feeling is that powering a pair of expensive, high-end speakers with a 150 WPC (or greater) amplifier over 22 Gauge wire is just not that simple* in this day and age, especially when you can get 12 Gauge, OFC, 259 strand speaker wire terminated with really high-quality banana plugs on both ends from SewellDirect.com for $15 for a 10 ft cable (and slightly cheaper (!) from Amazon - look for Silverback speaker cable). The stuff is ready to go out of the package, the bananas fit so tightly that you could pick up most desktop speakers by the cable and the plugs wouldn't pull out! At these prices, why fool with bulk cable at all when this cable is available so cheaply, is made in USA (Sewell is in Utah)and is such good quality. *Remember, highly reactive speakers can be cable sensitive. George Link to comment
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