Operating systems and their sound signatures

[plissken]

We just rewrote an application that now runs on $70 worth of Rasberry Pi. Our high end solution? The Asus Tinkerboard for another $25.

 

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[Miska]

1 hour ago, plissken said:

We just rewrote an application that now runs on $70 worth of Rasberry Pi. Our high end solution? The Asus Tinkerboard for another $25.

 

RasPi is not so great for USB audio, because it is built too much to a price point. It has ethernet controller on the same USB bus where the USB connectors are. USB is not so great for connecting ethernet adapters (especially cheap ones) in first place, and having everything on a single USB bus makes it more easily congested. The plug-on DAC boards like HifiBerry that utilize the onboard I2S work fine though.

 

I don't know about the Tinkerboard hardware, if it has better ethernet implementation.

 

Very inexpensive "DAC with built-in NAA" or "ethernet connected DAC":

RaspberryPi3 + HifiBerry DAC+ Pro

 

[plissken]

34 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

RasPi is not so great for USB audio, because it is built too much to a price point. It has ethernet controller on the same USB bus where the USB connectors are. USB is not so great for connecting ethernet adapters (especially cheap ones) in first place, and having everything on a single USB bus makes it more easily congested. The plug-on DAC boards like HifiBerry that utilize the onboard I2S work fine though.

 

I don't know about the Tinkerboard hardware, if it has better ethernet implementation.

 

Very inexpensive "DAC with built-in NAA" or "ethernet connected DAC":

RaspberryPi3 + HifiBerry DAC+ Pro

 

 

We aren't using for audio but for access control.

 

The Tinkerboard has GBe Ethernet and it's a much quicker unit SD card wise. We use it when we have customers with more than 60,000 people in their database for access control.

[bodiebill]

Reading this thread with interest!

 

Where I am coming from: Windows Server 2012 core (and later 2016 GUI) with AO, FP, JPLAY and players like Bughead, HQPlayer, Hysolid, (Russian) APlayer for DSD up to DSD256, and later XXHighEnd (PCM only).

 

Actually, Peter kindly helped me to set up XXHighEnd under Server 2016 – see above quoted thread – which was successful for the most part. However, there remained one or two hiccups, so I listened to Peter and tried Windows 10; first reluctantly, but in the end I had to admit that it sounded at least as good as Server 2016, probably thanks to XXHighEnd's Minimized OS and unattended playback.

 

Result: I now use Windows 10 and XXHighEnd with PCM when I am in a tweaking mood (many settings can be changed, a veritable science in itself), and the sound is gorgeous. But when I just want to relax and play music, I use wtfplay/Linux with DSD256. This has the beauty (and I think Peter would agree in that department) that I can detach LAN, and also detach the PC's SSD (by switching off the external power supply), and even detach the stick with the wtfplay OS as this is loaded in RAM. And with longer tracks I even detach the usb stick or -drive that contains the music files and the HDMI cable, i.e. monitor. Can it be more minimal? And it sounds great as well (with only very slightly different sound signature compared to Windows which is hard to describe).

 

[Miska]

4 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

And with longer tracks I even detach the usb stick or -drive that contains the music and the HDMI cable. Can it be more minimal?

 

Why do you have HDMI cable at all in first place? Most of my NAA's boot either from onboard nonvolatile memory or from microSD. But I don't have HDMI or other display connected to those.

 

Now you just need to build that thing into a DAC so that you don't need USB or such, like the RasPi DAC I posted above.

[bodiebill]

7 minutes ago, Miska said:

Why do you have HDMI cable at all in first place? Most of my NAA's boot either from onboard nonvolatile memory or from microSD. But I don't have HDMI or other display connected to those.

 

The HDMI is not needed for Windows as I can then access remotely, however for wtfplay the only way to control is via a monitor.

 

So what would be more desirable:

      monitor/HDMI but no SSD, no usb, no LAN (wtfplay setup)

or

      SSD, LAN but no HDMI (Windows/XXHighEnd setup)

?

[sandyk]

17 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

This has the beauty (and I think Peter would agree in that department) that I can detach LAN, and also detach the PC's SSD (by switching off the external power supply), and even detach the stick with the wtfplay OS as this is loaded in RAM. And with longer tracks I even detach the usb stick or -drive that contains the music files and the HDMI cable, i.e. monitor. Can it be more minimal? And it sounds great as well (with only very slightly different sound signature compared to Windows which is hard to describe).

 

 

 However, the SQ of what you are hearing is governed mainly by what was done BEFORE loading the music into RAM.

[WuNgUn]

2 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 However, the SQ of what you are hearing is governed mainly by what was done BEFORE loading the music into RAM.

Are you referring to upsampling and filtering, etc...?

[sandyk]

1 minute ago, WuNgUn said:

Are you referring to upsampling and filtering, etc...?

 

 I am referring to everything, including the OS used before the results are played from RAM.

There will be a small improvement resulting from playing after doing all this, but I have found that the SQ is governed mainly by what was done before it was saved to RAM for playback.

[plissken]

2 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 I am referring to everything, including the OS used before the results are played from RAM.

There will be a small improvement resulting from playing after doing all this, but I have found that the SQ is governed mainly by what was done before it was saved to RAM for playback.

 

Does this include which power generating station your grid power is on that day?

 

Did audio setups across AU suddenly improve when the Tesla battery bank switched over in 140ms when the generating station went down?

[WuNgUn]

1 minute ago, sandyk said:

 

 I am referring to everything, including the OS used before the results are played from RAM.

There will be a small improvement resulting from playing after doing all this, but I have found that the SQ is governed mainly by what was done before it was saved to RAM for playback.

Still not following you...

Surely you don't mean the music data as it exists in the digital domain being transfered from storage to RAM or network to workstation actually "changes" , enhanced or degraded...?

[bodiebill]

5 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 I am referring to everything, including the OS used before the results are played from RAM.

There will be a small improvement resulting from playing after doing all this, but I have found that the SQ is governed mainly by what was done before it was saved to RAM for playback.

 

OK, I see what you mean, but I do not fully agree. Detaching the LAN, usb's and HDMI after playback has started, in my wtfplay setup, makes a very noticeable improvement SQ-wise.

 

[WuNgUn]

1 minute ago, plissken said:

 

Does this include which power generating station your grid power is on that day?

 

Did audio setups across AU suddenly improve when the Tesla battery bank switched over in 140ms when the generating station went down?

LOL!

[plissken]

1 minute ago, WuNgUn said:

Still not following you...

Surely you don't mean the music data as it exists in the digital domain being transfered from storage to RAM or network to workstation actually "changes" , enhanced or degraded...?

 

here is what he means: That cable errata can be stored, NATIVELY, in the file as written to buffer.

 

That you can use two cables, end up with the same MD5 hash, but still night and day differences in the sonics.

[WuNgUn]

Just now, plissken said:

 

here is what he means: That cable errata can be stored, NATIVELY, in the file as written to buffer.

 

That you can use two cables, end up with the same MD5 hash, but still night and day differences in the sonics.

Oh shit...we're gonna talk about $4000 USB cables now, and how they're sonically better than a standard USB cable....

[WuNgUn]

Where ever there is digital transfer of data, there is always going to be data error, whether be over WAN or LAN or SSD to RAM or RAM to cache...but there are also algorithmic error correction constantly going on as well, as far as I believe...

You wouldn't be able to download TB worth of data without error correction and have a 100% perfect replication, correct?

[sandyk]

10 minutes ago, plissken said:

Did audio setups across AU suddenly improve when the Tesla battery bank switched over in 140ms when the generating station went down?

 

 What a stupid thing to say. The Tesla set up only took over the supply of part of the South Australian end of the grid from the Eastern States. As for the quality of the power generated under those conditions, who knows ?

 The Tesla power may even have more higher order harmonics than the normal supply due to the Inverters needed to step up the voltages ? Someone else with expertise in  that area would need to answer that question.

[sandyk]

20 minutes ago, WuNgUn said:

Oh shit...we're gonna talk about $4000 USB cables now, and how they're sonically better than a standard USB cable....

 

 I'm not. But others who have heard the differences between USB cables with better isolation between D- and D+, and +5V VBUS and 0 volts may.

 As far as I am concerned the best sounding USB cable is NO USB  cable, just a modified USB-A to USB -B converter.

[sandyk]

12 minutes ago, WuNgUn said:

Where ever there is digital transfer of data, there is always going to be data error, whether be over WAN or LAN or SSD to RAM or RAM to cache...but there are also algorithmic error correction constantly going on as well, as far as I believe...

You wouldn't be able to download TB worth of data without error correction and have a 100% perfect replication, correct?

 We aren't talking about errors here. We are talking about resulting files with identical checksums.

However, I am not going to keep repeating everything that I have written on this subject for every new Freshman member who comes along.

You could try using the Search Facility for example.

[Ralf11]

1 minute ago, sandyk said:

... I am not going to keep repeating everything that I have written on this subject ...

 

 

Best xmas gift ever!

 

WuNgUn, you can just ignore this claim as it is just a silly game played by a prime candidate for a Darwin Award ;]

 

Your analysis is correct - there is no technical basis for the claim - put your $$ and effort into something worthwhile (spekers, room treatments, better source material masterings, galvanic isolation, etc.)

[sandyk]

28 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

 

OK, I see what you mean, but I do not fully agree. Detaching the LAN, usb's and HDMI after playback has started, in my wtfplay setup, makes a very noticeable improvement SQ-wise.

 

 I don't doubt that it does to the person who made the changes.

However, you would be looking for differences that a normal listener may either not notice,  or even be aware of unless pointed out to them.

[sandyk]

1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

Best xmas gift ever!

 

WuNgUn, you can just ignore this claim as it is just a silly game played by a prime candidate for a Darwin Award ;]

 

Your analysis is correct - there is no technical basis for the claim - put your $$ and effort into something worthwhile (spekers, room treatments, better source material masterings, galvanic isolation, etc.)

 

He doesn't need to. All he needs to do is peruse many of the threads in the Uptone area of the forum, for example, where he will find a wealth of information written by a well respected E.E. and designer, on the various possible areas of SQ improvement including Linear PSUs. USB Regens. DC  cables etc. etc.

In other areas of the forum he will find numerous threads and reports about improvements when using better USB cables, including the very recent  Lush USB cable from the designer of XXHE player software for Windows, as well as his highly acclaimed Phasure NOS DAC designs.

 

If this poster is GENUINELY interested, as distinct from Ralf11 who had already made his mind up , he can  PM me for further information.

[plissken]

15 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 We aren't talking about errors here. We are talking about resulting files with identical checksums.

However, I am not going to keep repeating everything that I have written on this subject for every new Freshman member who comes along.

You could try using the Search Facility for example.

 

Prove it. You pm'd me a link for two files that sounded different, but they also had different hashes. Go figure.

[sandyk]

12 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Prove it. You pm'd me a link for two files that sounded different, but they also had different hashes. Go figure.

 

 

 The attached demonstrates exactly why I do not trust you.

You deliberately attempt to twist what others say to your advantage.

Of course they had different checksums, as one file was processed using SeeDeClip Duo Pro to reduce clipping and compression.

 

"On ‎14‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 2:41 PM, sandyk said:

Hi

 You should be able to hear differences between the original and the SeeDeclipped version of Better Be Home Soon.

A couple of other members are able to. These are the same 2 uploaded files discussed in the thread.

No, the differences aren't night and day.

They have been sent as Uncompressed Zips.

 

Regards

Alex"

[plissken]

15 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 Any files that I may have sent you specifically for comparison purposes, would have had identical .md5 checksums before being Zipped for Uploading. If they didn't, you should have asked me to resend the files before evaluating them.

 

Ok, Can you resend me some files please.