Jump to content
IGNORED

Massdrop Focal "Elex"


Recommended Posts

15 hours ago, PorkChop said:

Tempted.  Haven't heard the Elears, but I'm a fan of Focal's sound signature and have no doubt they'll sound amazing.

 

13 hours ago, dalethorn said:

I had the Focal Spirit Pro - signature was very decent albeit maybe slightly weak in the deeper bass.  But the Elear had a big recess between 4 and 5 khz, much like the AudioQuest NightHawk I had.

 

The Elear sounds really really good - with EQ.  I have said before that they should put a label on the box that says "don't use without DSP".  If you are unable or unwilling to use EQ then your better off with the usual planar suspects.

 

Also, "head-fi TV" confirmed that these are Elear's with Clear pads (and different paint scheme, etc.).

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
1 hour ago, exdmd said:

If soundstage and imaging is important to you stick with a pair of Senn HD800 or HD800S. I have of pair of Elears gathering dust.

 

I have to admit I am perhaps not you typical HP enthusiast in that I don't think HP's really do "soundstage and imaging" at all.  Stereo simply does not work as designed with he speakers right next to your ears on either side of your head.  This is not to say that the effect is totally lost, but it mostly is and what is left is not right.  Some modern electronic music takes advantage of the skewed "imaging" of HP's and sounds off when played over a two channel...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Mshenay said:

 

I doubt it's just a pad swapped Elear, the THD measurements are pretty different, but speculation aside the price is good, if it really just is a Pad Swap then Elear owners should rejoice! All they need are a new set of pads to improve their headphones lol

 

Non the less, while I didn't like the Elear... it's flaws were too obvious, the Elex should do very well. Good on Massdrop for launching another well tuned headphone with a super aggressive price! I'm wondering if maybe the "tweaks" performed on the Elear are just mimics to the dampening on the CLEAR plus the pads.

 

Are those apple to apple THD measurements (i.e.  are they both from the same source)?  You could be right, perhaps the Elex has some (or all) of the driver tweaks of the Clear.  If so, it is even more of a bargain.  If it is just external damping then it seems it is just an Elear 2.0

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
1 hour ago, exdmd said:

 

You really need to listen to top shelf source files through an excellent DAC and tube amp output to HD800S. You might be surprised.

 

To add to what Mshenay said, I (atypically perhaps) just am not impressed with soundstage/imaging out of any HP rig.  I get it - 800/good tube set up does give a bit in space/width and air, but the "image" is just plain wrong.  I appreciate horsepower, but I like a 911 or an F1 race - not a tractor pull which in fact has "more" horsepower than the former.  Racing is racing, and a tractor pull is...what it is.  "Stereo" and "HeadPhone" is a bit of a contradiction and this is by design.

 

I am a mostly HP high fidelity-ist for all the other things that HP bring to the audio game.  That's just me however...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
13 minutes ago, dalethorn said:

You do realize that your eyes see upside down, physically.  Yet they work.

 

A better analogy would be if you took your eyes and put them where your ears are (each looking out the side of your head).  You know, like a fish.

 

What would happen to your depth perception?

 

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/stereoscopic-vision

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
6 minutes ago, dalethorn said:

A "good" speaker setup does two basic things to recordings that many audiophiles love.  1) They bounce the sound around, creating delay (short-duration echos basically) that mimics a larger space, and 2) They mix (smear) the sound, which lessens the effects of harshness in the recording, which in conjunction with the time delays and so on makes the sound more "pleasant".  I see how people would enjoy that, but it's hardly a sonic ideal.

 

 

Too true - one of the many advantages of HP is their precision.

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
9 hours ago, dalethorn said:

H

Fish are great at finding food that darts and tries to evade them.

 

You can divert attention away from the acoustic realities of speaker problems, but it doesn't work with this headphone user.  The presentations are all fiction, but the truth is that good recordings sound awesome on good headphones, just like having a good seat at the concert.

 

Unfortunately, many people listen to bad recordings, and speakers help bury much of the bad.

 

 

Dale,

 

I think you are misreading me.  I am in no way denying the " acoustic realities of speaker problems," or the many advantages of HP use.  All I am saying is that one of the few areas where two channel has a clear advantage is the much talked about soundstaging and imaging.  I don't even deny that HP give you a bit of this, but I am claiming (somewhat controversially) is that even what they give you is wrong - it is still "in the head" and not on a soundstage in front of you.  I know that many HP users don't agree with this, but as someone who is a season ticket holder to my local symphony and a jazz fan, I just can't convince myself that the soundstage I hear through HP (even the best of rigs) in any way approaches the soundstage of a well set up two channel when compared to the real thing.  I have never owned a top of the line 800(s) rig (what most HP enthusiasts point to as the archetypical "soundstaging" system) but I have listened to them at dealers/shows/meets and they have not changed my opinion.  Would quality time spent with this rig in my home make a difference?  I am not convinced and have not committed the $ to finding out.

 

All that said, HP for me give such an advantage in other areas that at least 80% of my listening through HP's...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
4 hours ago, AMR/iFi audio said:

 

Yes, but only one's ears are involved, whereas with speakers there are other things going on. 

 

This is true, and at the risk of poking a hornets nest, one of the few areas where a HP system falls short when compared to a good two channel is the "dynamics" of live acoustic music - that "feel it in your chest and whole body" thing.

 

Fear not HP users, I am still a HP fan!!

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
49 minutes ago, Mshenay said:

 

That said, I'm pretty confident this one will be worth the recommendations it get's. The Elear is not and was not a headphone worth owning...  

 

I don't share your confidence Mshenay, but we both are speculating of course.  Do the "damping" tweaks really fix the Elear's significant frequency response issues in this Elex version?  I also think the Elear is a great HP -IF (and only if) you are willing and able to EQ/DSP it back into shape.

 

I don't like the HD6XX either for all the usual HD650 reasons.  The HE 4XX (which I am listening to right now) is defiantly worth $169 and then some...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
6 minutes ago, Mshenay said:

 

Well from the brief time I spent with the HD 6XX I felt it was worth wile, though I too personally prefer the HE 4XX over the HD 6XX  but my tastes are not reflective of every ones. An you could be right, still the measurements alone show an increase in upper mid range response as well as a decrease in low frequencies, this should result in quite a boost to the presence of instruments. This lack of presence is what I found so off putting about the Elear. 

 

 

 

 

Yep, the Elear simply is not "complete" if you are not EQing presence region, 10k spike, etc.  Luckily, the design "takes" to EQing pretty well  - no funky artifacts/breakup that I can hear. I actually don't do much with the bass but perhaps that makes me a bass head.  On the other hand, I find the  mid bass hump of the HD6XX ruinous to the lower mid/mid balance that no amount of EQing can really fix (even if it does mitigate it some).  What bothers me just as much is the graininess of the HD6XX treble.  I find the top end of the AT M50x more listenable.  IMO (and thats all it is) the HD6XX, like the rest of Sennheiser line, is outdated and yesterday's sound.  Tyl's review of the "new" (read the review - you have to put "new" in quotes) 660S is devastating.  Sennheiser is obviously either not able or unwilling (maybe lack of development $dollars$ ? ) to innovate...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
23 hours ago, pkane2001 said:


Interesting. I don't profess to have much experience with headphones. Bought HD650 recently for under $200 (used). With EQ, the response is as flat as I like it to be, with no major humps. Bass is solid, much better than I had expected. And I have none of the problems you describe in treble after EQ. I made balanced cables for mine, and use DSP to apply crossfeed. I'm sure there are better headphones out there, but did you try to EQ HD6XX? I do find the uncorrected HD650s a bit harsh at the top.

 

Well shucks pkane2001, maybe I did not try hard enough with EQ.  As far as the treble, I seem to be swimming upstream so perhaps it is a sample issue, or a synergistic issue with my Jotunheim amp??  OR, perhaps my expectations are too high but really, it has that graininess to it that seems immune from EQ (other than recessing it so that you don't notice it). Like I said in my review, the mids (voice, etc.) are good so...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...

Price is down to $700 ($699) as of today for the two days left on the drop.

 

Does anyone have any confidence that this is something more than a Elear with Clear pads?  I know Massdrop publishes a FR curve, but is it really all that different from an Elear given the variability of measurement rigs?  How reliable are Massdrop published curves?

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
2 hours ago, dalethorn said:

Assuming it comes with only the Massdrop pads, if I could buy the original or Utopia pads for less than $100 extra, I'd call it a good deal.

 

It's a deal I do believe.  Thing is, I already have an Elear and really want a Clear (The Utopia is really nice but I have a mental value block that kicks in for headphones above $2k).  However, if this Elex is truly Clear like (as alleged), then I hate to miss it...I probably am anyways... ;)

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
38 minutes ago, buonassi said:

 

Yup, can't avoid the graininess with all that HF energy in a small area - creates reflections / standing waves.  As you can see in the attached pic, I have a huge peak at 8K to offset the attenuation happening by all the physics gremlins.  It seems to be much worse for planars where there is basically a sheet of film which these HFs can bounce off of.  

 

Anywho, if there is enough interest I may start a topic that covers the techniques I've learned (not all of them my own) for smoothing out headphones.  There may not be since you need a computer that can run VST or AU plugins inline with your software player.  

FF.jpeg

 

edit:  ignore the huge lowpass filter here at 18K.  This is only needed for upsampling as an anti-aliasing filter.  not really doing anything sonically for the graininess I describe.  

 

To ask the obvious, you're just applying EQ curves for particular models aren't you? The way you stated it seems to imply that you have some generalized techniques but if so then I don't follow you and that I would be most surprised if there are generalized frequency responses and generalized cup enclosure effects...

 

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I don't pretend that the house curve I use is somehow ideal, but it is commonly used. I start out by EQ'ing for a completely flat response, and then slowly, over time, tune it to the way I feel sounds best (most natural) to me with the music I prefer. The tweaks are rarely major, and always involve a simple tilt of the FR curve.

 

The tilt I seem to gravitate to mimics the behavior of natural sound at a distance (higher frequencies get absorbed more by air than lower ones). For example, a 20Hz sound coming from an instrument 20m away will be about 10dB louder than a 20KHz sound from the same distance. That's how my house curve is constructed. To my ear, orchestra sounds unnatural when recorded and played back with all the frequencies having equal weight (flat). But that's just me and the music I listen to :) YMMV.

 

 

pkane2001, would you be willing to post a screen shot of your EQ on that HD650?  My efforts of getting my HD6xx to sound good so far have fallen flat ;)

 

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
6 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

If you are using HQPlayer or something that can take an impulse response WAV file, I can actually post these. Don't know how much variation there is between individual headphones, especially if this is a slightly different model. Or I can post the PEQ settings.

 

The PEQ setup should work. I use HQPlayer (usually with Roon as a front end) but I also sometimes use Roon's built in DSP without HQPlayer (direct to DAC), or JRiver with a DMG EQ plugin, etc.

 

There are probably sample differences, just looking for something to start out with...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Added PEQ screen shots to the previous message. Take a look.

 

The top one is how you got your curve for the HD650 correct?  No adjustment past 3400hz??

 

which HP is the bottom one for?

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
4 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

They are both for HD650. rePhase allows multiple banks of PEQ filters, and I usually run a few iterations where I measure the effect of filters, and add new ones to correct for any issues that were not resolved by the previous runs.

 

 

I thought of that after I posted - thanks!!

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
3 minutes ago, dalethorn said:

EQ works and is even necessary with lo- and mid-fi headphones. EQ doesn’t work and is moreover destructive with hi-fi headphones. Hi-fi headphones such as the HD800, TH900, LCD-4, Utopia, etc and so on, are already meticulously tuned to achieve a certain sound and messing with the frequency response just ruins them.

 

@GUTB This reminds me of why I have you on my ignore list (I think everyone else on it has been banned).  This might be the most ridiculous thing you have ever said, though I am sure you will top it soon...

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
1 minute ago, pkane2001 said:

 

@GUTB believes that expensive equipment is equivalent to perfection. Anyone with even a slightly less expensive set up is simply lying when they say that they can get great performance from their system.

 

 

I am not sure he has any beliefs at all.  I think he may be some kind of audiophile-contrarian bot designed by the North Koreans :P

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
2 hours ago, buonassi said:

I can't believe I didn't join this drop.  By all accounts, reviews, graphs, etc, this is one hell of a headphone.  Then again, I can grab a used Elear for $550 and EQ the crap out of it.  I have to research the REW software some more.  I have been too intimidated to download it thus far.  Then again, I'm ready for my next adventure, so....

 

I almost did as well - but I already have an Elear!  

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
2 hours ago, buonassi said:

 

I wouldn't say the majority of us are here specifically with the intention of serving ordinary users.  Many of us are here because we want to take our hobby to a level that ordinary users would laugh at - and we find others who share this same affinity.  The irony in all of this...... is that through our "techie" talk, we end up educating, thus serving, the ordinary users.  

 

Still...I have to yield to you here and say you're right.  At least for this topic.  This is supposed to be about the Focal Elex, not standing wavs and physics.  For that, I apologize to the OP @crenca, sorry about that.  

 

No worries, I like how these treads eb and flow.  Besides, when talking about the Elear (and possibly the Elex - we will see), or with most HP's, you have to talk about DSP and EQing.  Most HP's should come with a warning printed on the box that says "Do not eat use without DSP"

 

I find what you are saying about standing waves in HP's fascinating and like you point out, the same thing (on the level of physics) as room interactions and two channel.  Don't stop!  :)

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...