qobuz Qobuz USA launching soon!

[#Yoda#]

Many network player from e.g. Linn, Auralic or Sonore support the Qobuz streaming service, but I don't know if they will work with a VPN. 

 

Like @Charente I switched from Tidal to Qobuz Sublime as well, primarily because of the significant discounts on HiRes downloads.

 

Their streaming catalog is not identical to Tidal, I agree with Charente that for Jazz and Classical lovers, Qobuz is the better choice. For me, as a friend of Indie, Alternative and Progressive Rock, both have huge gaps but Tidal is slightly better sorted.

[#Yoda#]

@left channelNo, you've got it correctly. Living in Europe, I do not need a VPN for streaming Qobuz.

[#Yoda#]

@Bob Stern There is a bypass for the regional restrictions of Qobuz. If you browse Findhdmusic.com on your computer and click on the Qobuz links you'll get to the specific country site you've chosen. There you can see the prices, quite often they are very different between the three given options in Europe.

[#Yoda#]

@left channel By the way, I wouldn't be too optimistic for the availability of Qobuz in the US. Qobuz announced in March this year that they will be available in Italy, Spain and Poland until summer but the people there are still waiting. 

 

Qobuz was always great in announcements but sometimes poor in delivery, service and reliability.

 

There are reasons why Qobuz had been in insolvency proceeding recently and a court found a new last minute investor, so far.

 

[#Yoda#]

@left channelGood luck!

[#Yoda#]

I would't be surprised if Neil Youngs XStream (not to confuse with the Neil Young Archives) or the HighResaudio.com streaming service are available in the US sooner than Qobuz Sublime +.

[#Yoda#]

I'm a Qobuz Sublime subscriber, but I'm anything else than convinced about a positive Qobuz future.

 

1. Qobuz is not reliable. Qobuz has no quality management for the content. They are aware about many HiRes fakes in their catalog for a very long time now and took no action to replace this obviously faulty files. Qobuz announced expanding to several other countries in Europe in March, nothing happened then. 

 

2. A questionable business model for their Sublime or Sublime + streaming service. To support their high quality streaming services, Qobuz.com offers the subscribers significant discounts up to 50 %. Regarding that the average gross margin for the download stores is between 20 and 25 % and the net profit between 5 and 10%, Qobuz is subsidizing their streaming service with the profit of the download store, if there is any. It took me not even 3 months to compensate the costs for my subscription with the discounts for my downloads and I'm for sure not the only one. 

 

3. Qobuz was in receivership recently and has been recovered by Xandrie SA, known as a young supplier for digital video, ebooks and video games content but uncertain financial strength. It seems to me as if this has been a typical French deal to keep the national "icons" in domestic ownership. It remains to be seen how long Xandrie SA is able or willing to provide financial support to a still loss-making Qobuz.

 

I honestly wish all the best for Qobuz because I believe that real competition is always good for the customers. The more different audio streaming services for at least HiFi quality and of corse lossless music download stores are out there in the market, the better it is.

[#Yoda#]

@CharenteI don't know, if you've noticed it already, but there has been a very significant rise of HiRes download prices from many labels to > € 20, the Qobuz discount is even more profitable for Sublime subscribers but ruinous for Qobuz and presumably other download stores. It is not so obvious at Qobuz and HRA because they are still selling many albums at the same price but reduced resolution. It seems as the major labels want to bury HiRes downloads in favor of streaming services. 

[#Yoda#]

11 hours ago, Bob Stern said:

 

Where did you read that?

 

Were classical labels included?

 

Aside from their failure to purge old fakes, are fake hi-res albums continuing to be newly added to their catalog?

I've got it not from reading, it is experienced. Around 4 % of my 230 Qobuz downloads are upsampled. I check all HiRes downloads with an analyzing tool and only can recommend this for all Qobuz download customers. With the chart picture as proof, you usually get a refund for this. 

As well, you can check the comments for a selected album, sometimes there are posts about an upsampling issue.  

 

I haven't downloaded very much Classical music from Qobuz so far, for this genre HighResAudio.com had been my preferred supplier until I subscribed Sublime. There are no fakes among my Classical downloads from Qobuz.

The very most of the upsampled albums are Classic Rock, Blues or Alternative, published or reissued in HiRes between 2010 and 2015.

 

No fakes so far among newer albums that has been issued in 2016 or later. 

[#Yoda#]

2 hours ago, Charente said:

 

Interesting thought, and no I hadn't noticed. I mainly buy from HRA (almost in bulk during their promo deals !) and have seen quite a few of their (Jazz) labels regularly priced at €15. I often find HRA cheaper than Qobuz . Nor had I noticed that they were tending lower resolutions.  I presume HRA is still ALL 24 bit ?  On sample rates, I'm not sure it bothers me personally (other than VFM) ... my ageing ears aren't what they used to be to in detecting the difference between 48/96/192.

 

However, I had thought that the labels were struggling to get any meaningful revenues from streaming service providers, so, IF that's true, why would they 'bury HiRes downloads in favor of streaming...' ?

Jazz music is mostly published by smaller labels and not the major labels I'm primarily aiming at.

 

Not all albums HRA is selling are real 24 bit, still there are some MQA files in their catalog . 

 

Detecting the difference in resolution is not necessarily a matter of age. I assume, the average age of CA members is > 40 and most of them shouldn't be able to hear a sinus tone higher than 15 - 16 kHz but I know many music lovers, older than 50, who usually notice subtle differences in a suitable listening environment.

 

For the major labels, music streaming revenue in general is the main percentage of sales http://www.ifpi.org/facts-and-stats.php). Of course it is generated mainly with pop music and the top 500 chart hits in a lossy format. Labels, distribution channels and particularly the artists who are not serving this market are the losers of this trend.

[#Yoda#]

1 hour ago, Bob Stern said:

 

(1) What is the third region besides FR and GB?

 

(2) findHDmusic.com has a link to the Qobuz home page, but I don’t see an option to choose a country site.

Hi Bob,

 

usually you'll see in brackets behind Qobuz their main countries, France, Germany and the UK if the album is available in all three regions, what is not always the case unfortunately, because of regional restrictions within Europe; A real shame in a so called "Common Market" for nearly all goods beside digital contents. One effect is that sometimes there are very different prices in each country with a price range up to 800%. The major labels are playing their game with the EU institutions and customers globally. 

[#Yoda#]

29 minutes ago, GromitInWA said:

Attached are the PDFs from their press kit. You'll see that the subscription tiers are:

Premium

• $9.99/month or $99.99/year
• MP3 320kbps compressed lossy

Hi-Fi

• $19.99/month or $199.99/year
• 16-bit 44.1kHz CD quality lossless

Sublime

• $219.99/year (no monthly option)
• 16-bit 44.1kHz CD quality lossless
• Hi-res 24-bit downloads at MP3 prices

Sublime+

• $349.99/year ("coming soon monthly subscription")
• Hi-res 24-bit FLAC up to 192kHz
• Hi-res 24-bit downloads at MP3 prices
• Up to 60% permanent reduction on a large part of the direct download catalogue (presumably because it is FLAC)

 

Introducing Qobuz.pdf

Q&A Qobuz.pdf

 

Nice outlook, I'm Sublime subscriber as well, but is there anyone out there who can tell me how this price policy will fit into a sustainable business model? To subsidize the numbers of streaming subscribers with dumping prices on HiRes downloads is very disputable.

 

You shouldn't forget that Qobuz had been bankrupt two years ago, not at least because of using this business model in Europe. Of course they have a new owner, but I couldn't find any numbers about its financial power.

 

The other concern about Qobuz HiRes streaming is the not existing quality control for incoming HiRes files from the labels. The very most of my upsampled HiRes files I've downloaded from Qobuz. I can analyze my downloads and claim a compensation what is usually no problem, but I don't know a tool, beside my hearing, to analyze the quality of a HiRes stream. 

[#Yoda#]

8 minutes ago, left channel said:

Re the bankruptcy correct me if I'm wrong but didn't that happen because of the Tidal-like low prices, while the new Sublime/Sublime+ tiers are probably what is giving Qobuz positive cash-flow now? 

The financial situation of Qobuz had been strained for several years, but when they introduced their streaming service Sublime, I think it was in 2015, with all the discounts on HiRes downloads, the financial status turns even worse as far as I know and let to the bankruptcy, maybe together with other management failures.

 

Regarding my own consumer behavior, Qobuz Sublime is ideal. I use audio streaming services to evaluate music and buy/download what I like and don't really need the expensive HiRes streaming Sublime +. To get this albums, if available in HiRes and discounted up to 50 %, is great. Within a view months I've redeemed my annual subscription with the savings from the downloads and I'm not the only one. For sure, I'm not the only customer with this manner. The Qobuz Sublime price is comparable with the TIDAL HiFi fee, TIDAL isn't selling the albums far below cost price, has a multiple of subscribers and is still  loss-making like nearly all others in the business. It is very positive thinking to expect that Qobuz will have a positive cash-flow now, IMHO.

 

Anyway, I hope for my friends in the US that Qobuz will be available there, soon. Competition is always good for the market and the customers. 

 

 

[#Yoda#]

I don't know, how if there are differences in the streaming services.

 

For sure there are sometimes differences in the catalog of the download store for the European markets in selection and price. You can check this by using http://www.findhdmusic.com and follow the country specific Qobuz links for the quested album.

[#Yoda#]

1 hour ago, wwc said:

Do any users of Qobuz   have an opinion on sound quality between Tidal 16 bit and Qobuz 24 bit?

Your question is like comparing apples and oranges.

 

If you think you really need HiRes streaming to an outstanding price, if you usually notice differences between HiRes and CD quality, if it's worth the significant surcharge for you, sometimes unsure if you really get the labeled resolution, Qobuz Sublime + should be superior in SQ, compared to TIDAL HiFi and TIDAL Masters (MQA).

 

If the Qobuz catalog in the US will be comparable to the current European catalog in Jazz and Classical it is for sure bigger than TIDAL in this genres.

[#Yoda#]

2 minutes ago, rickca said:

Qobuz only has a subset of their catalog in 24-bit.  If it's not available in 24-bit you will get CD quality.

Correct! I've forgot this important issue. 

[#Yoda#]

@Musicophile I agree with your motivation 100%. I'm a subscriber of Qobuz Sublime and not Sublime + for the same reasons.

 

I just have some trouble with Qobuz because of their not existing quality control. Perhaps, you as Classical/Jazz music lover are not so much affected, but in their catalog for Rock, Blues or Pop music are still a significant number of upsampled HiRes fakes. 

 

I wouldn't buy any HiRes files from Qobuz without checking them with a proper analysis tool. As Sublime + subscriber and streaming only listener, it is much more difficult to verify the real content quality in case that your ears notice that there may be something wrong. One of the reasons why the labels like streaming.

 

By the way, if you buy a new 24/44.1 or /48 HiRes album today, you cannot be sure that it is the best possible (final) version. For new albums, it's very likely that there is a master in better resolution and possibly rereleased in a view years as 24/96 or higher. For comprehensible commercial reasons, the labels avoid selling their "crown jewels" finally and another reason why they like streaming and MQA.

[#Yoda#]

3 hours ago, wklie said:

 

Could you explain more about how to check it before buying?  (Indirectly via other website databases?)  Thanks.

 

I cannot check the files before buying, but Qobuz usually offer a refund when I can prove my complaint with a graphic report of the tool.

[#Yoda#]

1 hour ago, Musicophile said:

I've had a small number of upsampled albums which Qobuz refunded immediately (their customer service is overall quite decent), but much less so in recent years.

 

This may however be due to the fact that I mainly buy recent productions by good labels like Harmonia Mundi or ECM. I believe the false high-res problem is more often found in remasters of older albums. Did you see any pattern emerge in the false high-res albums?

You are right, I've downloaded less newer false HiRes albums in the past two years, but the older ones are still in their catalog. And yes, there is a pattern. Not all, but most of my upsampled albums are well known Rock/Blues/Folk albums from the 70s, rereleased as HiRes version between 2012 and 2015, usually by a Universal Music Group division.

I've downloaded not so much Classical or Jazz from Qobuz.com because until I subscribed Sublime a view months ago, Highresaudio.com usually had the better prices and the better HiRes catalog for this genres anyway, not to mention the guaranteed quality.

[#Yoda#]

1 hour ago, Musicophile said:

One thing to keep in mind for Qobuz pricing is that they sometimes have different prices per country (which I find quite annoying). Luckily I'm on the French store which seems to have the best prices overall.

 

If you want to see a "nice" example for different prices:

 

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/the-complete-studio-albums-the-doors/0603497933105

https://www.qobuz.com/it-it/album/the-complete-studio-albums-the-doors/0603497933105

https://www.qobuz.com/fr-fr/album/the-complete-studio-albums-the-doors/0603497933105

https://www.qobuz.com/de-de/album/the-complete-studio-albums-the-doors/0603497933105

 

Interesting to compare the first three with the last link.

 

It is not a joke and it is not the fault of Qobuz, the price differences at HDtracks are similar as far as I know. The prices are largely determined by the labels. 

[#Yoda#]

This is the most extreme example I've ever noticed. Obviously Rhino/Warner Music Group avoids to sell this collection in German speaking countries, Switzerland and Austria shall pay the same brazen price.

 

When I'd noticed this irrational discrepancy in 2015, I sent several emails to Rhino - Elektra but have never got any feedback. Finally I bought 3 "must have" albums in 24/96 for not even € 45 and the rest now as 50th anniversary remasters.

 

By the way, we will see many Patti Smith HiRes remasters reissued tomorrow. 

[#Yoda#]

@bobbmd The sample tracks of an album, you can listen to in the download stores of any HiRes provider, are not HiRes. They are usually mp3 with 256 or 320 mbps, what may explain your listening experience. 

 

I don't know if the ME2 DAC is switching the filter mode automatically when you listen to "regular" formats after you listened to MQA encoded music. When it's not switching, the DAC still uses the MQA specific filter to playback regular FLAC and you shouldn't wonder when the regular files sound worse then. I've made the same experience with a Mytek Brooklyn.