The ultimate cables can/can't - only $80,000

[Ralf11]

sorry - it was not rude at all

[Speed Racer]

Like I said, this thread was doomed from the first post. No one here really knows for sure what this product is really doing. The only people that actually know will lie to your face to sell it to you. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

sorry - it was not rude at all

Telling someone to "study electronics, acoustics, biology and psychology" when they ask for help on a forum is rude in my opinion. You don't think so, that's OK. We are all different.

[gmgraves]

9 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

what a horrible waste of money just to get an imbalance form a V-6 !!!

 

You obviously have no experience with a high-end V-6. The Alfa Flat-Cranked 2.4 and 3.0 liter V-6s from the late 1970's through the early 2000s were universally hailed as one of the great engines of all time. Most motoring journalists rated the engine right up there with the classic Ferrari V-12 (and don't forget the V-6 in the Ferrari and Fiat DINO 246 cars from the early 70's. If you want to acquaint yourself with what a modern OHC V-6 can do, arrange to test drive a 2017 or 2018 Chevy Camaro equipped with the 3.6 liter, 335 BHP DOHC V-6. It doesn't have a flat-crank like the old Alfa V-6 or the new Alfa Ferrari-built V6, but it is formidable and really sounds good accelerating briskly through the gears as well. It is smooth, rev's freely, and has a really wide, and extremely flat torque curve; putting out full power from almost idle to it's 6800 RPM red-line. Having owned a 3-liter Alfa GTV-6 for many years, I'm a real fan of well designed V-6. 

[Ralf11]

flat-crank good

 

V-6 bad

 

V-6s are inherently imbalanced (unlike the wonderful, well-balanced flat 6)

 

 

* and I hope everyone enjoys this digression from the box of ill repute

[Ralf11]

20 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Telling someone to "study electronics, acoustics, biology and psychology" when they ask for help on a forum is rude in my opinion. You don't think so, that's OK. We are all different.

 

everyone can go back and see that I did not post in response to his OP but to a later post

 

I went back 2x now and stand by my admonition 

[CuteStudio]

17 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

If you want to acquaint yourself with what a modern OHC V-6 can do, arrange to test drive a 2017 or 2018 Chevy Camaro equipped with the 3.6 liter, 335 BHP DOHC V-6.

 

 

One thing I couldn't work out when I used to visit the states and rent cars is all the V6's I drove sounded great but went nowhere (impossible to wheel-spin even in the wet or on dirt), but the V8 northstar Cadillac I rented went like a train and was most amusing.

 

Have the US V6 engines finally got into line with the european V6s (which always had power even back in the 1970s with the Ford 2.8efi etc)? Do you still have feeble V6s or have they been banished?

 

BTW I know a straight 6 is better balanced and in a way sounds sweeter but in my view anything above a 4 is sonically fine with me

[The Computer Audiophile]

On 12/10/2017 at 1:37 PM, sdolezalek said:

Because I'm trying to learn something, not conduct an opinion poll

 

On 12/10/2017 at 2:46 PM, Ralf11 said:

 

 

not all opinions are equally valid

 

expertise and technical knowledge matters

 

to learn something study electronics, acoustics, biology and psychology

 

4 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

everyone can go back and see that I did not post in response to his OP but to a later post

 

I went back 2x now and stand by my admonition 

 

I'll just put your comment here, so we don't have to click back and forth. 

 

He said he posted because he wanted to learn something. In other words asking for help.

[Ralf11]

put the the chain here to be fair

[Speed Racer]

6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

He said he posted because he wanted to learn something. In other words asking for help.

 

No one here knows enough about the product to provide an education. All they can do is guess......

[esldude]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

 

And, as usual, I had to go pry a layer of deception off the discussion. In fact, no one in that thread was able to design and conduct a meaningful test of the Bybees. Furthermore, in a separate ABX test thread, the tester conducted some simple electrical analysis -- found nothing except a very small drop in upper harmonics -- and proceeded to find he could subjectively identify the difference in high frequency sounds, and ended up scoring 60% in two ABX runs when using quality sources, which is better-than-chance certainty. That was with the bullet plugs, devices to be hooked up between your amp and speakers, while the filters are supposed to be connected as close as possible to the transducers for best results. 

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/172673-bybee-quantum-purifier-measurement-analysis.html

 

This is the thread I had in mind.  More than one simple measurement.  Admittedly a long thread of more than 1500 posts.  No effects were found other than those expected of a small value resistor that was found inside the device.  A few people measured the device purchased as a group in several different ways including into the ghz region.  

 

I know nothing of the ABX runs perhaps I missed them or they are in another of several threads over the years about these filters.  Just the kind of product I would expect GUTB to find compelling.  I am confident if you had the $80k MIT unit a couple Bybee units added to it would help plenty.  

[sdolezalek]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

The OP said nothing that should lead you to believe he is an anti-vaxer type. He asked for real information and said opinions really didn't matter. I don't know what more he could do.

Asking how a product could work and excluding opinions, is about as close as you can get to someone who should be in your camp.

 

Chris: Thanks and I hope that Ralph11 and I are on the same page.  I actually quite like his comment below:

Quote

how long can ignorant citizens maintain an advanced civilization  <---- that is the larger issue beyond cables

 

I have actually found that the more I learn, the more willing I become to admit how much I don't know.  There are those here who exhibit the opposite behavior, but the reason this remains such a great site is that you can get some highly technical and educated responses to questions that aren't that easy, and I appreciate the willingness of those folks to continuously take the time to be helpful.  The more we can admit to how little we each actually know and how much we can benefit from those who, on any specific topic, know so much more than we do, the more we can return to a safer and saner world generally.   

[Ralf11]

12 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

No one here knows enough about the product to provide an education. All they can do is guess......

 

The issue really breaks down into 2 questions, doesn't it?

 

1. What does it do ?

2. Can it possibly be worth $80,000 ?

 

I think the lowy EE's have figured out #1 (as have some others) and that #2 is pretty obvious.

[mansr]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

He asked for real information and said opinions really didn't matter. I don't know what more he could do.

I think it was a fair request, and I think most of the responses (until GUTB derailed it) were in line. There was an honest discussion around what this device might be doing, which I believe is what the OP asked for. While some are quick to dismiss any sharing of engineering knowledge as "just an opinion," I did not perceive the request in this light. Ralf11's response was unnecessarily harsh, but he has contributed usefully in later posts.

[GUTB]

6 minutes ago, esldude said:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/172673-bybee-quantum-purifier-measurement-analysis.html

 

This is the thread I had in mind.  More than one simple measurement.  Admittedly a long thread of more than 1500 posts.  No effects were found other than those expected of a small value resistor that was found inside the device.  A few people measured the device purchased as a group in several different ways including into the ghz region.  

 

I know nothing of the ABX runs perhaps I missed them or they are in another of several threads over the years about these filters.  Just the kind of product I would expect GUTB to find compelling.  I am confident if you had the $80k MIT unit a couple Bybee units added to it would help plenty.  

 

If I had 80k, it would would go on Magico Project Ms, not cables. I don't think you need to spend more than 10k on top notch cables to get 99% of the performance out of speakers like that, though. Could be wrong.

 

These products are definitely not meant for mortals like us. Something like the MITs would end up  in a system where you already have Grand Utopias, WAMM Masters, etc.

 

 

[Speed Racer]

5 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

The issue really breaks down into 2 questions, doesn't it?

 

1. What does it do ?

2. Can it possibly be worth $80,000 ?

 

I think the lowy EE's have figured out #1 (as have some others) and that #2 is pretty obvious.

 

Unless someone has access to the schematics of the internals of that device, no, the EE's have not figured it out #1 nor has anyone else. Everyone is guessing what it does. #2 all depends on how much money you have and what you perceive the benefit being.

[sdolezalek]

17 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

No one here knows enough about the product to provide an education. All they can do is guess......

 

If that is really what you think about the sophistication and expertise of the regulars on this site, it probably isn't worth your time to hang out here.  If all you are saying is that we don't know what's in the box, I'd still suggest that you re-read some of the posts more carefully.  On the other hand, if you can contribute additional data that would educate all of us to what these boxes do, please do so.  

[Ralf11]

2 minutes ago, sdolezalek said:

 

...his comment below:

 

I have actually found that the more I learn, the more willing I become to admit how much I don't know.  There are those here who exhibit the opposite behavior, but the reason this remains such a great site is that you can get some highly technical and educated responses to questions that aren't that easy, and I appreciate the willingness of those folks to continuously take the time to be helpful.  The more we can admit to little we each actually know and how much we can benefit from those who, on any specific topic, know so much more than we do, the more we can return to a safer and saner world generally.   

 

My general comment is based on many years of attempting to educate (or at least train) science undergraduates and graduate students.  I am out of the institution now, but it seems things have gotten worse - even worse, I should say.  Not to put too much onus on audio however.

 

In my field and others it is important to know what is known and also to know what is not known - the latter contains the areas in which scientific progress can be made (or where endless wheel-spinning can destroy a career). 

 

For audio, very little is really known about psycho-acoustics - other, more engineeringistic areas include ground loops and their effects on digital devices, etc. A lot of it is how to achieve something that we know would be beneficial w/out getting other factors 'wrong' (I'm thinking about my favorite brand of speakers here - Maggies - I have the 3.7i).  It's pretty clear that you'd like to use a massless driver to create air pressure waves....

 

But I am certain that this box is not worth $80k and nearly certain it is what people have said it is.

 

A better title might have been: Has anybody heard this thing?  What did it sound like?

with a 2nd thread: What could be inside this thing?  Could it be worth $80k?

[mansr]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

the EE makes judgments outside of the scope of the actual physics and math.  This is because the lowly engineering majors took simple, cook-book course in math & physics as undergrads, instead of the full bore physics major physics and math major math that REAL MEN took....

I disagree with this assessment. My brother did a PhD in maths and my sister in physics. The maths and physics I took during my EE studies didn't differ much from theirs. We even used some of the same textbooks. Obviously, they ultimately went deeper into their respective areas, but the foundations were still the same.

[Speed Racer]

7 minutes ago, sdolezalek said:

 

If that is really what you think about the sophistication and expertise of the regulars on this site, it probably isn't worth your time to hang out here.  If all you are saying is that we don't know what's in the box, I'd still suggest that you re-read some of the posts more carefully.  On the other hand, if you can contribute additional data that would educate all of us to what these boxes do, please do so.  

 

The web site for the product is extremely vague as to what the product actually does and does not explain how it does whatever it does. I looked. I downloaded everything from the site on the products. All quite vague with no discussion of actual implementation. There certainly was no discussion of IP.

 

So, no, I can't contribute additional information because there is none. It's basically a black box that does something they claim improves the sound coming out of the speakers. Is it just an equalizer? Does it impedance match? What else might it do to improve the sound? There are not enough details out there to really answer any of those questions.

 

Finally, you don't get to tell what I can do......not anymore than I can tell you what to do.

[sdolezalek]

I didn't ask whether this box was worth $80k because our free market society allows us to spend whatever we want on anything we want and therefore it's not my place to critize someone else's choices on how they spend their money.  I think I did ask the "what could be inside this thing" question, but not relating to price, only relating to whether it was doing something the rest of us might be interested in (albeit not at that price). 

 

I too have Maggies as my favorites (I still have my original set of MG-IIIa's but also have a tri-center surround system based on the 20.1's).  Maybe in a separate thread I'll ask for expert speculation on why the world divides so neatly into those who love what Maggies do and those who will always prefer what a box can do.  I have wondered what a no-holds barred Magico approach of controlling vibration and using exotic materials might accomplish with a Magnepan starting point, but I don't think I'd like what the result would be priced at.  In addition, I kind of like the fact that each Maggie is utimately still a hand built wooden instrument that gets tweaked over and over again to make it just that tiny bit better.  Almost like the old handbuilt string instruments...

 

Thanks also to George and Dennis for correcting my bad memory about Maggies and impedance -- shows I'm getting old. 

[sdolezalek]

7 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

The web site for the product is extremely vague as to what the product actually does and does not explain how it does whatever it does. I looked. I downloaded everything from the site on the products. All quite vague with no discussion of actual implementation. There certainly was no discussion of IP.

 

So, no, I can't contribute additional information because there is none. It's basically a black box that does something they claim improves the sound coming out of the speakers. Is it just an equalizer? Does it impedance match? What else might it do to improve the sound? There are not enough details out there to really answer any of those questions.

 

Finally, you don't get to tell what I can do......not anymore than I can tell you what to do.

Apologies - Completely fair response.  I tried to do the same and couldn't find anything either.  But I find that to be an odd characteristic of this hobby -- that we are willing to let manufacturers produce products at these price points without insisting on some basis for their differentiation.  I'm not asking for MIT to disclose trade secrets, but you could disclose measurements that show the difference contributed by these boxes without saying anything about how they do it.  I guess the feature that most piqued my interest was the rotating dials -- if this were really designed to squeeze the last ounce of performance out of a system, wouldn't there be a single optimal setting, rather than something the user can dial in to taste?

[Ralf11]

15 minutes ago, mansr said:

I disagree with this assessment. My brother did a PhD in maths and my sister in physics. The maths and physics I took during my EE studies didn't differ much from theirs. We even used some of the same textbooks. Obviously, they ultimately went deeper into their respective areas, but the foundations were still the same.

 

well, I saw it in the '70s at one of the xITs - the engineers got away with easy texts & courses....

 

I enjoyed the Berkeley Physics books tho

[mansr]

8 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

The web site for the product is extremely vague as to what the product actually does and does not explain how it does whatever it does. I looked. I downloaded everything from the site on the products. All quite vague with no discussion of actual implementation. There certainly was no discussion of IP.

Given the connections (one input, one output, no power source) and controls along with their descriptions, there is only so much it could be doing.

[Milt99]

You know why engineers are rejected from serving on juries by savvy prosecution & defense attorneys?

They think they know everything about anything...