Stereophile Series on MQA Technology

[GUTB]

1 hour ago, semente said:

 

The problem with your rationale is the "good sounding" part. Good sounding to whom? It's your opinion, not a universally accepted fact.

 

To a non-audiophile, it’s convenient to focus of measurements because there’s a ton of sub-$100 Chinese shovelware that measures very well. Audiophiles measure with thier ears, and try to understand the relationship between sound and electrical measurements. The reason why something like an Ayre sounds so good is because they were built by the ear of a master craftsman, not from an electrical engineer’s student textbook.

[esldude]

8 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

To a non-audiophile, it’s convenient to focus of measurements because there’s a ton of sub-$100 Chinese shovelware that measures very well. Audiophiles measure with thier ears, and try to understand the relationship between sound and electrical measurements. The reason why something like an Ayre sounds so good is because they were built by the ear of a master craftsman, not from an electrical engineer’s student textbook.

What measures I have seen of sub-$100 DACs they don't measure well.  There is also no getting around the fact if gear of any price sounds different while measuring poorly, that sound even if preferred by some is a coloration.  These days such colorations can be applied to well made gear capable of high fidelity via DSP without the expense or limitations of hardware based coloration from the hands of a "master craftsman".

[FredericV]

AYRE / MQA / Mytek filter with sox

This thread is becoming very interesting.

Just obtained a 96 Khz impulse response testfile from another member which was used to measure MQA dacs. Thanks @mansr

I was playing with the sox filters to change the length of the postringing tail and changing the allowed aliasing parameter, which lead to the bottom plot, but not as short as the Ayre filter.



I found some extra sox recipes on the slimdevices forum which duplicate exactly the Ayre / MQA filter:



Interesting recipe here:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?97046-Announce-Squeezelite-a-small-headless-squeezeplay-emulator-for-linux-(alsa-only)&p=785601&viewfull=1#post785601
 

Quote

The recipe for Ayre's Listen filter is something like this "-u vM::1:28:25:180:0"

Decoding the above squeezelite upsample string, Ayre's / MQA's / Mytek minimum phase filter can be duplicated with the following sox settings:

recipe
v = very high
M = minimum phase

flags
none set

attenuation
1 = -1dB

precision
28 = 28 bits

passband_end
25

stopband_start
180

phase_response
0 = minimum phase

Filter will allow aliasing and be leaky.

So this is proof that sox can do the exact same filter as what Ayre and MQA used.

So who remembers some former members who laughed at sox

[GUTB]

Wow. Jim Austin is shattering under-informed commentators in the comments section now. Must read.

 

 

CRUNCH!

[Indydan]

21 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Wow. Jim Austin is shattering under-informed commentators in the comments section now. Must read.

 

 

CRUNCH!

 

There are under-informed commentators on both sides of the MQA debate. There are under-informed commentators on every single subject known to humans. I agree 100% with that.

 

But, just because a few under-informed people who are against MQA show their ignorance; it does not mean that everyone who has problems with MQA is wrong or under-informed.

 

Yes, ignorant people who scream loudly and are wrong, hurt the cause and the message. It does not mean everyone else who is on "the same side" is wrong. 

 

Those people would be better off, being more careful before just writing something on the Internet, without fully knowing that what they write is accurate. Jim Austin is no dummy, and he is correct and justified in correcting those who make unverified and incorrect statements. But, some people are making it really easy for him to do that...

[GUTB]

2 minutes ago, Indydan said:

 

There are under-informed commentators on both sides of the MQA debate. There are under-informed commentators on every single subject known to humans. I agree 100% with that.

 

But, just because a few under-informed people who are against MQA show their ignorance; it does not mean that everyone who has problems with MQA is wrong or under-informed.

 

Yes, ignorant people who scream loudly and are wrong, hurt the cause and the message. It does not mean everyone else who is on "the same side" is wrong. 

 

Yes, but notice when the usual tiresome crowd of "engineers" who have a very basic student-level understanding of the topic screech at someone with actual experience, because that's the basic operating mode on the forums -- and are now getting brutally shot down. 

[Indydan]

1 minute ago, GUTB said:

 

Yes, but notice when the usual tiresome crowd of "engineers" who have a very basic student-level understanding of the topic screech at someone with actual experience, because that's the basic operating mode on the forums -- and are now getting brutally shot down. 

I added this to my original post, while you were quoting me:

 

"Those people would be better off, being more careful before just writing something on the Internet, without fully knowing that what they write is accurate. Jim Austin is no dummy, and he is correct and justified in correcting those who make unverified and incorrect statements. But, some people are making it really easy for him to do that..."

 

I agree, that the Internet has too many screaming and angry "experts". 

[beetlemania]

10 hours ago, GUTB said:

Wow. Jim Austin is shattering under-informed commentators in the comments section now. Must read.

 

 

CRUNCH!

 

Jim Austin also taking shots at "Lucie" [sic]. I might characterize Austin's comments as, um, nasty!

[Shadders]

55 minutes ago, beetlemania said:

 

Jim Austin also taking shots at "Lucie" [sic]. I might characterize Austin's comments as, um, nasty!

Hi,

I read some of the comments from Jim Austin - and there is not one aspect which criticises MQA in the texts i read.

MQA is meant to be how the mastering engineer heard it - yet he states "almost always", MQA is better. How would he know if it is better - he was not at the mixing desk.

If current technology is the best (it has to be, else it would not be current), what exactly is MQA fixing, that Jim Austins states makes it better ?

I still don't see how anyone can continue to state MQA improves everything, and for some reason, no one in the recording industry or audio engineering design (including IC manufacturers), have discovered the flaws in existing recordings or equipment..

Regards,

Shadders.

[Rt66indierock]

20 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

I read some of the comments from Jim Austin - and there is not one aspect which criticises MQA in the texts i read.

MQA is meant to be how the mastering engineer heard it - yet he states "almost always", MQA is better. How would he know if it is better - he was not at the mixing desk.

If current technology is the best (it has to be, else it would not be current), what exactly is MQA fixing, that Jim Austins states makes it better ?

I still don't see how anyone can continue to state MQA improves everything, and for some reason, no one in the recording industry or audio engineering design (including IC manufacturers), have discovered the flaws in existing recordings or equipment..

Regards,

Shadders.

 

You are the leader in the clubhouse but each contest runs 30 days from posting on Stereophile's site.

[Indydan]

There are already 95 comments posted below Stereophile's MQA article! Stereophile will probably have a significant increase in web traffic this month because of the article.

 

That's never a bad thing when setting one's advertising rates. 

[beetlemania]

10 minutes ago, Indydan said:

There are already 95 comments posted below Stereophile's MQA article! Stereophile will probably have a significant increase in web traffic this month because of the article.

 

That's never a bad thing when setting one's advertising rates. 

 

They could probably get reliably more traffic over there if commenting wasn't so cumbersome. It's super difficult to scroll thru to find new posts.

 

But your Stereophile comment also reminds me of something a college prof once told me: "A good way to get a lot of citations is to be wrong."

[Rt66indierock]

4 minutes ago, beetlemania said:

 

They could probably get reliably more traffic over there if commenting wasn't so cumbersome. It's super difficult to scroll thru to find new posts.

 

But your Stereophile comment also reminds me of something a college prof once told me: "A good way to get a lot of citations is to be wrong."

 

That line reasoning works exceptionally well in the golf industry.

[PeterSt]

 

32 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

I can't say it enough times hi-res is a very tough sell.

 

Hires ? what Hires.

 

 

Hotel California 192.

 

 

Hotel California MQA.

 

There is no Hotel California Hires. Not for real, not on DVDA and not via MQA. Also not for @GUTB.

So that is why we shouldn't be interested in Hires. Of course it is only an example. But no 40th Anniversary Edition is going to change this. No MQA either, as we can see.

[GUTB]

9 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

 

Hires ? what Hires.

 

 

Hotel California 192.

 

 

Hotel California MQA.

 

There is no Hotel California Hires. Not for real, not on DVDA and not via MQA. Also not for @GUTB.

So that is why we shouldn't be interested in Hires. Of course it is only an example. But no 40th Anniversary Edition is going to change this. No MQA either, as we can see.

 

And yet, the MQA version is significantly better than the hifi version...why?

[FredericV]

Listening to the Ayre / MQA / Mytek minimum phase filter via sox. Just plotted several impulse responses to be sure.

Using Track 11 from the Nerve soundtrack by Rob Simonsen, trackname "verrazano".

My impression is that bass kicks are getting artificially tight. There's an illusion of more detail.
But with regular minimum phase upsampling, there's more body after the bass kick, but it also sounds a little bit brighter.

So again, MQA's filter kills post-ringing, making everything more tight, but if this is more musical is to be debated. Some audiophiles will kick on this, others will not like it.

I have that same experience when I listened to DXD vs MQA played on a Mytek Brooklyn. At least now I got to test this anti-postringing filter with my own music, as the 2L.no catalog is not my main genre which I like to test equipment with.

[Miska]

1 hour ago, PeterSt said:

Hotel California MQA.

 

Ahh, forget old analog tape recordings... Get something new. Like one of the new DSD256 recordings made with Merging Horus...

 

[Shadders]

3 hours ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

You are the leader in the clubhouse but each contest runs 30 days from posting on Stereophile's site.

Hi,

I am not sure of what you mean regarding the clubhouse etc.

My intention was that for someone to state nothing but good regarding a product (same as saying nothing but bad - seen it online with regards to a speaker bake off) indicates extreme bias.

Regards,

Shadders.

[Rt66indierock]

37 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

I am not sure of what you mean regarding the clubhouse etc.

My intention was that for someone to state nothing but good regarding a product (same as saying nothing but bad - seen it online with regards to a speaker bake off) indicates extreme bias.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

Leader in the clubhouse is the first person to finish a golf tournament with a competitive score someone who might win the tournament. The last time I won a stroke play golf tournament I finished four hours before the guy who finished second did and waited an entire afternoon. In your case you have to wait until January 11th. 

 

Bias is part of the checklist I made after I read Jim Austin's article. If you read my Dear Jim and Dear John posts on Audio Asylum you can get an idea of the standards I'm holding Jim to. My professions standards.

[Shadders]

1 minute ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

Leader in the clubhouse is the first person to finish a golf tournament with a competitive score someone who might win the tournament. The last time I won a stroke play golf tournament I finished four hours before the guy who finished second did and waited an entire afternoon. In your case you have to wait until January 11th. 

 

Bias is part of the checklist I made after I read Jim Austin's article. If you read my Dear Jim and Dear John posts on Audio Asylum you can get an idea of the standards I'm holding Jim to. My professions standards.

Hi,

OK - but sorry, still none the wiser regarding the 30 day rule and January 11th. I have not posted on Stereophile.

 

Although - this does remind me when i went golf, and was in the clubhouse, sitting down, having a pint, and they had just cleaned/polished the patio doors.

 

No doubt you can guess, a bloke proceeds to walk through the glass with pint in hand, and smack his head on the door, pint going all over the place. He did need some assistance.

 

OK - i did start to laugh. Was this wrong of me ???.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

[Don Hills]

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

And yet, the MQA version is significantly better than the hifi version...why?

 

Because you believe it is. That's your preference, you're entitled to it.

[GUTB]

Just now, Don Hills said:

 

Because you believe it is. That's your preference, you're entitled to it.

 

Do you have a MQA DAC?

[semente]

5 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Do you have a MQA DAC?

 

Something High End like a ProJect?

[GUTB]

1 minute ago, semente said:

 

Something High End like a ProJect?

 

That's definitely not a high end product.

[semente]

Just now, GUTB said:

 

That's definitely not a high end product.

 

What would you recommend? What did/do you use to evaluate MQA?