Does a DAC need a pre-amp

[pkane2001]

26 minutes ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

For decades, I have found that the introduction of additional analog stages to the signal path inevitably introduced some loss of transparency.

 

That mirrors my experience, exactly. I spent a long time looking for a preamp that would be beneficial in multiple systems I've built. I've not found one. From tube preamps to solid state to hybrids, all muddled the sound stage to some degree, caused frequency distortions, made playback less transparent. Perhaps there's some combinations of DACs and amps that do benefit from an active stage for impedance or level matching, but I've not run into this situation with any of my systems.  

 

If you can get away with not using a preamp, that would be the best way to go. And if you do feel like you do need a preamp, it may be worth it to try to figure out if there's something not properly matched in your system between the DAC and the amp... or, perhaps that you just prefer the euphonic distortions added by the preamp.

[pkane2001]

Just now, GUTB said:

 

Have you tried a preamp that costs more than $50?

 

Yes. But, I'm fascinated by your approach to audio: the more expensive, the better the sound must be? What a simple solution to all the audiophile dilemmas!  

[pkane2001]

5 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

So all that stuff is for photo ops -- just audio cosmetics?

 

Looks sexy, no argument! It's a bit less impressive if you consider that a straight wire between a DAC with a digital volume control and the amp can do a better job. 

 

[pkane2001]

Just now, Speed Racer said:

 

That is just plain incorrect. But you keep thinking that.......

 

Prove me wrong.

 

[pkane2001]

2 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

All of my experience proves you wrong......

 

I'm guessing that you realize that this is no proof at all. I have no way to examine or to judge your experience or to compare it to my own, which very clearly disagrees with yours. 

 

[pkane2001]

2 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

Well stated. The fact that an active preamp, even the best of them, adds noise and distortion to the system notwithstanding, most systems are better with a preamp than without one and largely for the reasons you state. 

 

I don't know if most are better, but some -- definitely. And if you want to spend $25k on a circuit that acts as a buffer between two devices, that's your choice.

[pkane2001]

4 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

I have a preamp that is passive, has a JFET buffer, and has a tube gain stage. I have listened to all three extensively and massively prefer the tube gain stage setting. It is very easy to A/B/C the preamp. But is in long term listening that I really prefer the tube gain stage.

 

So you enjoy tube euphonic distortion. Good for you. That's what you should lead with, instead of saying anyone who doesn't agree with your preference is 'just plain incorrect'.

 

 

[pkane2001]

3 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Every active stage adds distortion, but a passive stage may mess up impedance matching, AND with neither, you may reduce the bit-depth while changing the volume.

 

ok?

 

Succinct summary, but what's the answer to the OP? Is it a $25k tube preamp or a straight wire?

 

[pkane2001]

11 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Digital audio isn’t audio at all.

Wow, what are you doing on a Computer Audiophile forum then?

 

41 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Do you ever sit in front of your speakers and ask yourself:

"How come the soundstage never goes beyond the outer edge of my speakers?"

"Why can’t I pinpoint sounds?"

"Why do drums lack explosive force?"

"Why do some things sound like modulated tones and not real instruments?"

"Why can’t I perceive depth?"

"Why do I get tired of listening after 30 minutes?"

 

No to all of these.

 

My soundstage extends well beyond my speakers and into the adjacent rooms on good recordings. I rarely hear sounds directly from my speakers. I can pinpoint individual voices in a large choir, individual violins in a large orchestra. Live rock concerts sound to me like I'm there, surrounded by the audience. I hear well the dimensions of the space of the performance when properly recorded. The piano sounds very realistic to me, and I'm a piano player and have one in my living room. Bass extends to around 20Hz in a usable way without a subwoofer. The sound is 'organic', for a lack of a better word. My listening sessions usually last 3-4 hours, and I don't get tired of the system, ever. I don't have a single tube in it (I did before), and I don't have a preamp, though I still own a few. I use DSP and a digital volume control. How did I do on your quiz?

 

[pkane2001]

Just now, GUTB said:

 

Why these un-truths? Even if you were running Magicos, Wilsons or Focal Utopias you wouldn’t get performance like that. Are you running full scale $50k horns through your Aleph? Some sort of near-field trick?

 

Seriously? You think I’m lying? You are star struck with the price of gear, while ignoring the most important aspect of what makes gear great — proper design and thoughtful execution. Open your ears and close your eyes, you may learn something.

[pkane2001]

7 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Just trying to uncover the apparant deception. What speakers are you using?

 

You keep calling me a liar and we’ll have nothing to discuss.

 

 

 

[pkane2001]

2 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

No it doesn't depend. There's certain things that should be matched correctly. But generally speaking, better speakers are better speakers, better amps are just better amps, and so on.

 

For example, Magicos are better than Magnepans. 

 

Pass is better then Adcom.

 

Ayre is better than Logitech.

 

Nordost is better than Blue Jeans.

 

Etc and so on.

 

If a VAC Reference stack was dropped in beside your NuPrimes, Adcoms, Onkyos, Yamahas, etc, 10 out 10 of you guys world prefer the VACs.

 

Once again you are confusing price with quality. When you know of no other way to judge quality, then price is your only criteria. But please don't assume that everyone is like you.

 

[pkane2001]

48 minutes ago, synn said:

Us integrated amp guys are Switzerland here, correct?

 

There are no neutral sides to this argument

 

[pkane2001]

28 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

I didn’t mention price. A Goldmund is better than a NuPrime. 

 

Progress!