Does a DAC need a pre-amp

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You don't "need" a pre-amp's analog's volume control circuit to control volume -- you can rely on JRiver and/or the iDAC's driver (if it allows for device volume control) will do this.

 

You will need a good ANALOG pre-amp to get the best sound quality, though.

 

If you're going to build out your system eventually, a nice pre-amp as the core  is a not bad place to start.

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2 hours ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

There is no one right answer to the question of whether a digital volume control is/is not "better" sounding than an analog control in a preamp or a passive one.

 

There is one right answer -- digital is not better than an analog preamp.

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1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

 

That mirrors my experience, exactly. I spent a long time looking for a preamp that would be beneficial in multiple systems I've built. I've not found one. From tube preamps to solid state to hybrids, all muddled the sound stage to some degree, caused frequency distortions, made playback less transparent. Perhaps there's some combinations of DACs and amps that do benefit from an active stage for impedance or level matching, but I've not run into this situation with any of my systems.  

 

If you can get away with not using a preamp, that would be the best way to go. And if you do feel like you do need a preamp, it may be worth it to try to figure out if there's something not properly matched in your system between the DAC and the amp... or, perhaps that you just prefer the euphonic distortions added by the preamp.

 

Have you tried a preamp that costs more than $50?

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Just now, kumakuma said:

 

We've been down this road before:

 

You were wrong then and you're wrong now.

 

Let's try this from a different direction...

 

 

This is a line level preamp, the BAT REX. See all that stuff inside? What's the purpose off all those parts?

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7 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

 

Justifying the 25K price?

 

What's your point?

 

 

So all that stuff is for photo ops -- just audio cosmetics?

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Time to keep it real. By far the largest source of distortion are the speakers. Distortion is a facet of audio life, and the audiophile will get nowhere fast if he worries overmuch about that as a spec. IMD is evil and should be minimized. But distortion is often euphonic; that is why it’s common knowledge that a quality class A tube line stage is best for a preamp. It’ll smooth digital artifacts, trick your brain with spatial cues, and tweak the signal with to provide all sorts of other audible illusions (increased dynamics, image solidity, definition, etc). All of that in addition to buffering and impedance control tasks it does.

 

A fine analog preamp is an essential part of a quality audio system.

 

As a matter of fact, the parts in the BAT REX aren’t just for show. They do the things outlined above. They were carefully voiced through a master designer’s development process, constantly assessed by ear, and then stablaized into a production form. Dropping a REX into any of you guys’ systems would almost certainly have a dramatic improvement. The belief system in digital attenuation is really just a way to protect egos. Time to break through those barriers.

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2 minutes ago, esldude said:

You are correct.  Digital is MUCH better than an analog preamp in a properly gain staged system. 

 

Why don’t you post your system so we can assess these claims?

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37 minutes ago, esldude said:

I thought it was posted unless it was wiped out in the forum upgrade.  There are a couple items I probably haven't updated in that list. I don't have it in my signature anymore.  Evaluating the worth of someone's ideas by looking at their gear is not exactly great anyway.  

 

I use Soundlabs speakers, and Wyred4Sound CLASS D amps.  So I know you just quit listening. 

Recently I use a couple different ADC/DAC recording interfaces for the preamp.  Most recently some Antelope audio gear. 

 

 

So you’ve never tried an actual analog preamp? How can you make these claims then?

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A quality analog preamp is essential — if good sound is a requirement. Digital audio isn’t audio at all. Real sound has all sorts of natural artifacts and distortions, and our brain processes all of that input in different ways. Thinking you’ve achieved perfection because you can manipulate audio file bit depth prior to D/A is just crazy.

 

Do you ever sit in front of your speakers and ask yourself:

"How come the soundstage never goes beyond the outer edge of my speakers?"

"Why can’t I pinpoint sounds?"

"Why do drums lack explosive force?"

"Why do some things sound like modulated tones and not real instruments?"

"Why can’t I perceive depth?"

"Why do I get tired of listening after 30 minutes?"

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8 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Wow, what are you doing on a Computer Audiophile forum then?

 

 

No to all of these.

 

My soundstage extends well beyond my speakers and into the adjacent rooms on good recordings. I rarely hear sounds directly from my speakers. I can pinpoint individual voices in a large choir, individual violins in a large orchestra. Live rock concerts sound to me like I'm there, surrounded by the audience. I hear well the dimensions of the space of the performance when properly recorded. The piano sounds very realistic to me, and I'm a piano player and have one in my living room. Bass extends to around 20Hz in a usable way without a subwoofer. The sound is 'organic', for a lack of a better word. My listening sessions usually last 3-4 hours, and I don't get tired of the system, ever. I don't have a single tube in it (I did before), and I don't have a preamp, though I still own a few. I use DSP and a digital volume control. How did I do on your quiz?

 

 

Why these un-truths? Even if you were running Magicos, Wilsons or Focal Utopias you wouldn’t get performance like that. Are you running full scale $50k horns through your Aleph? Some sort of near-field trick?

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8 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Seriously? You think I’m lying? You are star struck with the price of gear, while ignoring the most important aspect of what makes gear great — proper design and thoughtful execution. Open your ears and close your eyes, you may learn something.

 

Just trying to uncover the apparant deception. What speakers are you using?

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12 minutes ago, firedog said:

I have the same one and massively prefer the JFET buffer.....

 

We’re all talking about the Freya (why hide it?).

 

I’m also running the Freya as a sort of stand-in until I find a high-end preamp. With GE 6SN7GTBs the tube stage is clearly preferable although the difference between it and the JFET isn’t that great.

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6 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

You keep calling me a liar and we’ll have nothing to discuss.

 

 

 

 

Okay fine. Help me reach what you’ve achieved. What speakers are you using?

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9 minutes ago, mansr said:

The Mayflower was a well-made ship. I still prefer a Boeing 787.

 

Were you the one who wouldn’t list his equipment because you were afraid of it being ridiculed?

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32 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Those GE tubes aren't very good....

 

I would take a hard look at the Don Sachs Model 2 line stage:

 

http://www.dsachsconsulting.com/custom line stage.html

 

I'll have mine in a couple of weeks.

 

Wow thanks for the tip this deserves consideration...

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22 minutes ago, plissken said:

Bottom line is if you purchased a DAC with fixed output, many software players are going to offer suboptimal, decimating volume controls.

 

The fact that my 9 year old EMU 1212M would most likely use the iFi DAC to mop the floor shouldn't be lost on people here.

 

If a card that I picked up for $85, with balanced I/O, AES/EBU, ADAT, SE output, Non-decimating volume control in .5 dB stepping has all this why couldn't it be in a $349 DAC? 

 

When was the last time you compared an old PCI card’s audio processor to a modern audiophile DAC? To a quality preamp?

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So to sum up the thread:

 

1. Active analog preamps for best quality.

 

2. If sound quality is a secondary concern, a quality digital volume control should be used (good DAC or HQPlayer, etc).

 

 

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6 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

 

 

You really need to make an effort to read more and post less...

 

 

 

You say that with a complete lack of irony, don’t you?

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2 minutes ago, STC said:

Anyone tried experimenting with Mytek's digital and analogue's volume? 

 

In my case, I am using Mytek (the old 192 DSD) as DAC/ preamp often setting the volume in analogue mode. I don't think I could easily identify one to be better than the other. 

 

I think the Mytek uses digital volume control of the Sabre and doesn’t have an analog mode.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, esldude said:

Of course, no irony is evident.  

 

You too don’t bother reading the post counter?

 

Anyway I said I don’t THINK the Mytek has an analog volume control, I may of thought WRONG. But looking at the picture of the 192 DSD, I wonder what they’re using because I don’t see any resistors or ladders — just curious, mind you. When I know something for a fact and you spread misinformation about it be sure I will correct you at such a time.

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Okay so, there’s this thing called a “digital potentiometer” — a little IC package that costs a few dollars that does a stepped resistor ladder. Is this what the Mytek uses?

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Except quality toslink cables sound better than cheap ones. I can validate that phenomena right now with my Supra vs Monoprice cable.

 

Wether its because of jitter induced by internal reflections or self-noise generated by the reciever cleaning it up, quality of transmission even over toslink still matters.

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11 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

He says it because it's true. You seem to misunderstand almost all the technical underpinnings of this hobby. I shudder as to what your setup sounds like. 

 

I understand them to a greater degree than you at least who seems more interested in class warfare.

 

You have more limited means...or you don’t place a high priority on sound. Either way, you’ve chosen to spread misinformation about audio. You have an audience for that amongst the non-audiophiles here but don’t be put out if I show up every once in a while to hit it with reality.

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20 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Agreed, as everything in life....it depends....

 

No it doesn't depend. There's certain things that should be matched correctly. But generally speaking, better speakers are better speakers, better amps are just better amps, and so on.

 

For example, Magicos are better than Magnepans. 

 

Pass is better then Adcom.

 

Ayre is better than Logitech.

 

Nordost is better than Blue Jeans.

 

Etc and so on.

 

If a VAC Reference stack was dropped in beside your NuPrimes, Adcoms, Onkyos, Yamahas, etc, 10 out 10 of you guys world prefer the VACs.

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3 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Once again you are confusing price with quality. When you know of no other way to judge quality, then price is your only criteria. But please don't assume that everyone is like you.

 

 

I didn’t mention price. A Goldmund is better than a NuPrime.