Account Closed Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 13 minutes ago, Mops911 said: I am looking into a pure music server, no games and fanless (because I can ;-)) Is a GPU better at upsampling to 256 ASDM7EC than a CPU? (no room correction or convolution)? Lets say for example we have a cooling capacity of 200W. Is it better to get a 200W CPU or a 100W CPU and 100w gpu? Or the other way, is Cuda more efficient at pure upsampling that x86? (I hope that makes sense) Thanks much Tom The GPU is really for offloading the filters. It is the CPU that does the modulation. If you want to keep it fan-less you will be limited to a 95 Watt TDP chip as the that is the most that the fan-less cases can handle. Link to comment
Mops911 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 23 hours ago, bobflood said: If you want to keep it fan-less you will be limited to a 95 Watt TDP chip as the that is the most that the fan-less cases can handle. If my google-foo (I use duckduck go ;-)) serves me right, the Turemetal UP10 could do more... Like 95W for CPU plus 160W for GPU. Therefor I wonder if it makes sense to put a 130-165W cpu in such a case and make sure all 3 cooling elements are nicely connected to the cpu. Or to better do a cooler cpu plus a GPU? Thanks Tom Link to comment
Popular Post Account Closed Posted March 8, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Mops911 said: If my google-foo (I use duckduck go ;-)) serves me right, the Turemetal UP10 could do more... Like 95W for CPU plus 160W for GPU. Therefor I wonder if it makes sense to put a 130-165W cpu in such a case and make sure all 3 cooling elements are nicely connected to the cpu. Or to better do a cooler cpu plus a GPU? Thanks Tom I have looked at that case in the past. I have my doubts about putting a 130-165 Watt CPU in any fan-less case. Under the heavy load of HQP running at DSD 256 it going to generate a LOT of heat. The real question is if you even need a GPU. If you only use the two stage filters (2s and ext2) when converting PCM to SDM using ASDM7EC at the 256 rate, you will certainly not need a GPU. A 95W chip like a K series Intel will do it without a GPU. A GPU is only helpful if it is faster than the CPU and putting one those beasts in any fan-less case is going to be problematic. The other problem is getting any GPU right now. From what I have read recently, it is near impossible to find one without being ripped off. That may change later in the year as NVIDIA has said that they are going to introduce GPU units that will not work for the Bitcoin miners who are hogging all the GPU production. Good luck with your build. luisma and Mops911 1 1 Link to comment
Miska Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 Another question is whether one needs fanless in first place... luisma 1 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
AudioDoctor Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 My server is water cooled and I can not hear the fans going at all unless I go sit right next to it. luisma 1 No electron left behind. Link to comment
luisma Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 15 hours ago, Mops911 said: Like 95W for CPU plus 160W for GPU. Therefor I wonder if it makes sense to put a 130-165W cpu in such a case and make sure all 3 cooling elements are nicely connected to the cpu. Or to better do a cooler cpu plus a GPU? I have a fanless case (H5) with a 65W TDP CPU (5600X), no GPU, I can do 7EC with 256 DSD with most filters, that said. 1. TDP is a at best measure in reality under load the CPU goes over that value, for example the 5800X lists at 105W but the max really at stock is 112W, IIRC Intel is even more aggressive, and it hits the thermals limits and guess what happens, thermal throttle down. My H5 is rated for what? 95W TDP? Under stress I kind of doubt a 95W CPU could perform there at all, let alone share the space with a GPU. 2. I recently built another server for different application, Fractal Node 804, relatively small chassis, I have 10 fans running inside, mainly noctuas at 900 to 1200 rpm, (after 1250 rpm they start buzzing) and some newer noctuas low noise, the noise is minimal, if I would be playing music at low level I would not hear it. My advise, if you can, consider a slightly larger chassis with fans, or water cooled could work too, it is more flexible for the application and easier to work with (removing and applying thermal paste gets tiresome). If you are deadset on passive cooling get a 95W chassis if possible with 65W CPU, or a larger Turemetal (if you can get it, I looked at these too when building). For the record I have a Fractal Define R6 here in the box sealed waiting to be used and replace the passive H5 at some point. Just my 2 cents Edit01 I feel a little cynical, looking at my H5 now, if you are good with the limitations, low TDP CPU, no OC at all, limits on GPU to use which will be useless for future convolution or multichannel processing, dealing with tubes of thermal paste and such by all means go passive, it is of course wonderfully silent. If you like the flexibility (I discovered I do) then passive is very limiting. Mops911 1 Link to comment
Miska Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 Load figures doing matrix pipeline enabled with headphone cross-feed, on my newest machine with AMD Ryzen 7 5800X CPU and HQPlayer Desktop 4.10.3: In this case, high load cores run at 4.6 GHz and rest at 3.7 GHz. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
luisma Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 Beautiful CPU numbers considering, I am very excited to have the Matrix (rather than the convolution engine) for "basic common DSP" that is something very very welcomed. When there is a good multichannel DAC capable of DSD256/512 (not likely a ladder DAC doing multichannel so PCM I think is out of the question) at least on all channels and affordable HQP will have no competition on building a high profile active crossover. That's what I'm looking for as an end system now. Waiting for Okto maybe or RME to create such product, I don't know if the current silicon crisis affected the AKM's production. Is that Ubuntu desktop Jussi? (yeah of course it is, it is not a Windows skin) (oh no, it is OSX) (with some modifications, looks AWESOME, almost like Linux) OMG what is wrong with me this morning, it has an AMD so it has to be Ubuntu, I looked at the Opera icon and thought on my head Safari, need a second coffee So it is Ubuntu Desktop Link to comment
Popular Post Miska Posted March 10, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 10, 2021 58 minutes ago, luisma said: Is that Ubuntu desktop Jussi? (yeah of course it is, it is not a Windows skin) (oh no, it is OSX) (with some modifications, looks AWESOME, almost like Linux) OMG what is wrong with me this morning, it has an AMD so it has to be Ubuntu, I looked at the Opera icon and thought on my head Safari, need a second coffee So it is Ubuntu Desktop Yes, standard Ubuntu Desktop 20.04 LTS. Running the stock linux-lowlatency-hwe-20.04 kernel meta package, so at the moment 5.8 series kernel. Thus practically unmodified desktop Ubuntu system. chipvn and luisma 1 1 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
luisma Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 20 hours ago, Miska said: Yes, standard Ubuntu Desktop 20.04 LTS I think I'm going to drop windows 10 and start using that for my day to day pc, windows will be virtualized on my home server and a cloud appliance, I had it with the telemetry and honestly it looks gorgeous and I'm sure it performs very well Link to comment
fishflower Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 I think only by designing and developing the fpga computing card of hqplayer, can we solve the problem of low CPU computing power. Link to comment
fishflower Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 What is an FPGA? An FPGA is a chip consisting of a series of logic blocks which can be modified and configured by the user. As such, these chips give the user much more flexibility and customization when performing specific tasks requiring timely results. FPGAs are ideal for parallel systems where multiple tasks must be performed simultaneously as they are electronically wired in the form of discrete programmable logic blocks which can be configured to suit the user’s needs. FPGA’s are programmable chips and their functionality can be updated multiple times. FPGAs come in array of size and prices and are most likely used in low-mid size volume products. FPGA’s do not fit to mass production products due to their price. What Separate FPGA vs CPU? Flexibility Both technologies offer great flexibility to engineers. Although CPUs have a fixed set of instructions that must be adhered to by the programmer, the program itself can be changed multiple times from bug fixes to a complete change the program. One of the prime features and advantages of FPGAs is that the entire internal hardware can be reprogrammed and reconfigured as the user is permitted to determine the logic of each block of the system. Meaning they are much more flexible in their programming and can be customized according to the needs of the programmer. Execution Speed Nothing can beat a dedicated a piece of hardware designed to perform a single function. Therefore, a well-designed FPGA will always execute faster than a software code running on a general-purpose CPU chip. Link to comment
Miska Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 29 minutes ago, fishflower said: I think only by designing and developing the fpga computing card of hqplayer, can we solve the problem of low CPU computing power. I don't think it is feasible. First, trying to find FPGAs running at ~4 GHz speeds is not easy. They are also extremely expensive, suitable chip would cost about 2000€ / piece. Meaning that the resulting card would cost over 20k€. In addition, developing the software for it would take immense amount of time and effort which would increase it's cost. So I'd say if you really would like to buy a 100k€ card for doing the same you can do now on a 1000€ computer... Quote FPGAs are ideal for parallel systems where multiple tasks must be performed simultaneously This is where GPUs excel at much better price/performance ratio. Unfortunately modulators are NOT parallel tasks. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Zauurx Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 After some adjustments and improvement tests (latency), I made a mistake. I reinstall an old backup, go back to the bios and .. go to to some music. And... 😒 cannot play mqa 96 on my i5-8400 (Roon> HQP ASDM7EC DSD 256). Cutouts every 5 seconds. Normal: processor stuck at 3.7ghz ??? I'm looking, think, looking for an overclocking track for this (excellent) processor (6 cores - 2.8ghz. Turbo. 65w > fanless). The theoretical max is 4ghz .. on one core ? all ? with turbo ... I go back to the bios of my Gigabyte Z370N .. some tests .. 102.7, uncore to the max and ... I'm happy .. no more dropouts !! Only music. 😋 chipvn 1 ROON + HQP / Hdplex H3-i5 + 400ATX >Gustard A26 (NAA twk) > SQM > Benchmark AHB2 / Recital Audio Illumine HEFA Link to comment
Account Closed Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 2 hours ago, Zauurx said: After some adjustments and improvement tests (latency), I made a mistake. I reinstall an old backup, go back to the bios and .. go to to some music. And... 😒 cannot play mqa 96 on my i5-8400 (Roon> HQP ASDM7EC DSD 256). Cutouts every 5 seconds. Normal: processor stuck at 3.7ghz ??? I'm looking, think, looking for an overclocking track for this (excellent) processor (6 cores - 2.8ghz. Turbo. 65w > fanless). The theoretical max is 4ghz .. on one core ? all ? with turbo ... I go back to the bios of my Gigabyte Z370N .. some tests .. 102.7, uncore to the max and ... I'm happy .. no more dropouts !! Only music. 😋 102.9 is the max for the i5 8400. At 103 mine will not boot. At 102.9 I get a little over 3.9 on all cores with set to sync all cores. Link to comment
Zauurx Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 Thanks for this precision ! ROON + HQP / Hdplex H3-i5 + 400ATX >Gustard A26 (NAA twk) > SQM > Benchmark AHB2 / Recital Audio Illumine HEFA Link to comment
Miska Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 If you want to maybe squeeze a little more out of same hardware, try Ubuntu 20.04 LTS with their lowlatency kernel, or my custom kernel. And "AMD" build of HQPlayer. I have Ubuntu Server 20.04 LTS running my custom kernel and HQPlayer Embedded "AMD build" on i5-7600T. This way the CPU can do poly-sinc-ext2 + ASDM7EC which is quite amazing. Not much margin, but it works. chipvn 1 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
chipvn Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 16 hours ago, Zauurx said: After some adjustments and improvement tests (latency), I made a mistake. I reinstall an old backup, go back to the bios and .. go to to some music. And... 😒 cannot play mqa 96 on my i5-8400 (Roon> HQP ASDM7EC DSD 256). Cutouts every 5 seconds. Normal: processor stuck at 3.7ghz ??? I'm looking, think, looking for an overclocking track for this (excellent) processor (6 cores - 2.8ghz. Turbo. 65w > fanless). The theoretical max is 4ghz .. on one core ? all ? with turbo ... I go back to the bios of my Gigabyte Z370N .. some tests .. 102.7, uncore to the max and ... I'm happy .. no more dropouts !! Only music. 😋 Do you need to under volt the CPU to keep it cool? Thanks RoonROCK: NUC8i5 Akasa case > HQPlayer OS in HDPlex: H3V3 case - i7-12700K > Oratek TOFU Raspberry Pi CM4 - Jussi's NAA OS > Holo Spring 3 L2 DAC with Preamp > DIY EL84PP amp > Snell Type E/III speakers Ubiquiti EdgerouterX SFP / Sonore Optical Module / Linear Power Supply for all Link to comment
Zauurx Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 5 minutes ago, chipvn said: Do you need to under volt the CPU to keep it cool? Thanks No, for the moment all the voltages are in "auto" mode and never more than 65 ° in a fanless HDPlex box. And the copper tubes are only on one side. I can reposition them to distribute over the 2 sides of the case. chipvn 1 ROON + HQP / Hdplex H3-i5 + 400ATX >Gustard A26 (NAA twk) > SQM > Benchmark AHB2 / Recital Audio Illumine HEFA Link to comment
Mops911 Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 TDP and and max load of HQP? Lets say, I am looking at a i9-11900KF with 125w TDP (and much more in real as I hear), how much of that "capacity" can HQPlayer max out. Or the other way, lets say we run a upsampling which totally saturates the CPU from an HQP perspective, how much headroom is actually left? Not all cores are saturated as I understand, so I guess even HQP under full load is not utilizing all 125w TDP. Does that make sense? Do I think completely wrong? Link to comment
StreamFidelity Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 21 minutes ago, Mops911 said: TDP and and max load of HQP? TDP is the maximum thermal power loss on the basis of which a cooling solution is designed. Important: This is a nominal value. The TDP says nothing about the actual energy consumption! For an i9-9900K with a TDP of 95W, my power consumption is about 31W. Although all cores run on 4.2GHz and DSD256 is played with ASDM7EC. You can get that with Undervolting. Since I use two linear power supplies (Keces P8), the consumption is of course higher because of the power dissipation. 20V with 1.8A = 36W 12V with 4.0A = 48W Total = 84W 😉 luisma 1 Grigg Audio Solutions Owner StreamFidelitys Setup: Sonus Faber Amati Futura | T+A M10 | T+A SDV 3100 HV | fis Audio PC & Server | GigaWatt PC4-EVO+ | JCAT OPTIMO S ATX | FARAD Super10 & Super3 | Keces P8 | Afterdark Buffalo Switch | fis Audio Cables | Solidsteel HJ-3 / HY-A Link to comment
Account Closed Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 20 minutes ago, Mops911 said: TDP and and max load of HQP? Lets say, I am looking at a i9-11900KF with 125w TDP (and much more in real as I hear), how much of that "capacity" can HQPlayer max out. Or the other way, lets say we run a upsampling which totally saturates the CPU from an HQP perspective, how much headroom is actually left? Not all cores are saturated as I understand, so I guess even HQP under full load is not utilizing all 125w TDP. Does that make sense? Do I think completely wrong? With this chip SDM modulation will push only a few cores to somewhat close to their max capacity. The remaining cores will vary a lot depending on filter selection with the 2s filters (including ext2) being the easiest and sinc L and a few others probably being beyond the capability of even this chip without help from a GPU. Link to comment
Mops911 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 7 hours ago, StreamFidelity said: 4.2GHz and DSD256 is played with ASDM7EC. Really interesting. 30w draw for 13% cpu util. Do you have any idea how much draw with 100% cpu util? And do you have potentially temp readings for 15%, 50% and 100% cpu (I am aware that I conflate here somehow thermal power and electrical power...;-)) Link to comment
Miska Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 13 hours ago, Mops911 said: TDP and and max load of HQP? Lets say, I am looking at a i9-11900KF with 125w TDP (and much more in real as I hear), how much of that "capacity" can HQPlayer max out. Or the other way, lets say we run a upsampling which totally saturates the CPU from an HQP perspective, how much headroom is actually left? Not all cores are saturated as I understand, so I guess even HQP under full load is not utilizing all 125w TDP. Does that make sense? Do I think completely wrong? If you use -2s filters or poly-sinc-ext2 for example, and no convolution or other such, you likely won't utilize all 125W TDP. It is not linear relation though, because by loading other cores less, you gain more turbo boost clock for the modulator cores because there is TDP budget left. Mops911 1 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Miska Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 13 hours ago, StreamFidelity said: For an i9-9900K with a TDP of 95W, my power consumption is about 31W. Although all cores run on 4.2GHz and DSD256 is played with ASDM7EC. You can get that with Undervolting. It greatly depends on what kind of instructions those cores are executing. I know you are setting your cores to fixed clocks. But if a core doesn't have work to do, OS will just run HLT instruction in it's idle loop and that consumes very little power. While if you are executing AVX-512 instructions or some other heavier math stuff, the power consumption will be significantly higher compared to idle loop. You still burn quite a bit of extra power if you are not letting core clocks and voltages drop for lower load cores, and limit processing capabilities for the higher loaded cores. Modulator and filter work accounts as high consumption task. Now with latest version and poly-sinc-ext2 + ASDM7EC I can get the i5-7600T closer to it's maximum TDP and I can really notice it from the Streacom FC-10 chassis temperature (really warm). Compared to something like poly-sinc-ext2 + ASDM7 (not even notably warm). Mops911 1 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
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