Jump to content
IGNORED

Best (sane) choice to power micro/ultraRendu?


Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

Basically, the key ingredients for a good power supply are very low noise over a wide bandwidth, and a very low output impedance over a wide bandwidth . They should also prevent voltage spikes from being generated at their output due to sudden load changes.

The original generic Positive and Negative supply voltage regulators such as the LM317/337 (adjustable) and 78xx/79xx  (fixed voltage ) don't have a wide enough bandwidth to prevent SMPS ripple at 25kHZ and higher,  and it's harmonics, from almost sailing right through to the output; although a choke ( inductor) at their input in combination with the voltage regulator's input capacitor can be used to markedly reduce the level getting through.

I think we have a failure to communicate, lets try again

 

from HDPlex website  the ripple voltage on the 200W LPS  " <3mv on 19VDC/12VDC/9V/5V output. "

 

On a 7v signal, how much less than 3mv does the ripple noise have to be to make a difference? Does the Teddy Pardo perform better?

Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

Link to comment
35 minutes ago, davide256 said:

I think we have a failure to communicate, lets try again

 

from HDPlex website  the ripple voltage on the 200W LPS  " <3mv on 19VDC/12VDC/9V/5V output. "

 

On a 7v signal, how much less than 3mv does the ripple noise have to be to make a difference? Does the Teddy Pardo perform better?

 

It wasn't a failure to communicate.

 I only addressed the last part of your question as shown in the quote I attached.

 

I doubt that anybody knows the actual PSU noise voltage at which the differences are only Academic !

All I can definitely say is that even the 40uV ebay offering can be further improved on.

The Teddy Pardo regulator (at least in the original version) has a capacitance multiplier section, which further reduces noise from the voltage regulator by a substantial amount.

My friend's 300W HDPlex benefits substantially from the additional filtering of the Adjustable Output using a JLH PSU add-on, and would also undoubtedly do so too using a suitably Current rated PSU add on from Teddy Pardo etc.

You would need to adjust the HDPlex's  Adjustable Output voltage to a higher level to accommodate the additional voltage drop via these other devices.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

Link to comment
On ‎17‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 11:27 AM, Speed Racer said:

I am not really interested in an HD flex solution....

 

Okay, I have narrowed it down to these 2:

 

https://www.teddypardo.com/powersupplies/teddy7-2.html

 

and this:

 

https://ciaudio.com/product/vdc•7-mkii-upgrade-power-supply/

 

The Teddy Pardo is $369 and the CI Audio is $329. I don't have specs yet on the Teddy Pardo but the CI Audio PS runs at about 2 microvolts of noise. That is pretty damn quiet.

 

There doesn't appear to be anything too special about the Ci offering, other than the transformer used MAY(?)  be a little better than a quality R-core type, and the use of 20,000uF of filter capacitance. It's noise level will be orders of magnitude higher than that of the other unit, although it will be a better than average PSU.

 

Quote

Key features include:

  • Low Noise 35VA EI Core Transformer
  • High Quality Schurter switched IEC Power Inlet
  • Schottky Bridge Rectifier Diodes
  • Over 20,000uF of filter Capacitance
  • Polypropylene bypass capacitors
  • Selectable 120/240V Input Voltage

 

 

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

Link to comment
24 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

The CI Audio is supposed to be at 2 microvolts of noise....but I ordered the Teddy Pardo.

 

 

 In which case they have missed listing one of the key features !!!

 Neither is there any mention of the output noise level at the link you provided , in the Specifications.

You would expect them to boast about something like that, if it was WAY better than average.

None of the Key Features quoted , are by themselves, able to reduce the output noise level into the <100uV region, let alone 2uV.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

Link to comment
4 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 

 In which case they have missed listing one of the key features !!!

 Neither is there any mention of the output noise level at the link you provided , in the Specifications.

You would expect them to boast about something like that, if it was WAY better than average.

 

Here is a CI Audio chart I posted in another thread:

 

 

VDC_Noise.jpg

 

The lines are Audio Precision noise floor, VDC at idle, and max rated power.

Link to comment
Just now, Speed Racer said:

 

Here is a CI Audio chart I posted in another thread:

 

 

VDC_Noise.jpg

 

The lines are Audio Precision noise floor, VDC at idle, and max rated power.

 

 Are you sure that it's for the model that you linked to ?

 

If it is actually that quiet, then they are doing themselves a big disservice by not stating something like that in any of the specifications at the link you posted.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

Link to comment
4 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 Are you sure that it's for the model that you linked to ?

 

If it is actually that quiet, then they are doing themselves a big disservice by not stating something like that in any of the specifications at the link you posted.

 

Yes, I am sure.

 

I bought the Pardo because it is suppose to be 1 microvolt and more people have heard of the company in regards to power supplies. That way, if it doesn't do enough to reduce noise in my particular setup, I have a better chance of reselling it.

Link to comment
6 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Yes, I am sure.

 

I bought the Pardo because it is suppose to be 1 microvolt and more people have heard of the company in regards to power supplies. That way, if it doesn't do enough to reduce noise in my particular setup, I have a better chance of reselling it.

 Are you SURE that the Pardo is a Linear PSU, and using a transformer ?

Another member , in a different thread, recently remarked that they are very light. The cases in their photos are very small too.

An SMPS PSU can have a very low noise output level, but still throw quite a bit of rubbish back into the A.C. mains to affect other devices.

Perhaps I missed seeing whether they use SMPS or Linear in their blurb ?

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

Link to comment
2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 Are you SURE that the Pardo is a Linear PSU, and using a transformer ?

 

 

Look at Teddy's site, where he favorably compares his tech to linear supplies; it isn't a linear supply, just a low noise one.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment
1 hour ago, firedog said:

Look at Teddy's site, where he favorably compares his tech to linear supplies; it isn't a linear supply, just a low noise one.

 

At a quick glance , I didn't see him do more than compare both technologies, but didn't seem to say whether he used SMPS or Linear supply for the Low noise regulator section.

IIRC, iFi USB also had a very low noise output, but being SMPS sent quite a bit of rubbish back into the A.C. mains supply, and quite a few members preferred a Linear PSU over it for this reason. 

 

 P.S.

The size of the case in the photo,( judging by the size of the rocker switch) suggests to me that there is inadequate room inside for a conventional 30VA transformer. 

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

Link to comment
32 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

At a quick glance , I didn't see him do more than compare both technologies, but didn't seem to say whether he used SMPS or Linear supply for the Low noise regulator section.

IIRC, iFi USB also had a very low noise output, but being SMPS sent quite a bit of rubbish back into the A.C. mains supply, and quite a few members preferred a Linear PSU over it for this reason. 

 

 P.S.

The size of the case in the photo,( judging by the size of the rocker switch) suggests to me that there is inadequate room inside for a conventional 30VA transformer. 

 

From Teddy Pardo:

 

"Our power supplies are based on our unique SuperTeddyReg technology, which is better than linear and does not inject noise to the mains."

 

So 1 microvolt of DC noise and no noise injection back into the AC mains. What's not to love?
 

Link to comment
6 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

So 1 microvolt of DC noise and no noise injection back into the AC mains. What's not to love?

 

 Even the best supplies from J.S. inject a  little noise back into the mains, and that includes the JS-1 Ultracap supply.

Sounds a little too good to be true.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

Link to comment
3 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 Even the best supplies from J.S. inject a  little noise back into the mains, and that includes the JS-1 Ultracap supply.

Sounds a little too good to be true.

 

Maybe, but people that sell high end power supplies don't keep their hard earned reputations by lying....so I would be much more inclined to believe him than call him a liar!

Link to comment
4 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Maybe, but people that sell high end power supplies don't keep their hard earned reputations by lying....so I would be much more inclined to believe him than call him a liar!

 

 

 Measurements ?

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

Link to comment

https://www.teddypardo.com/powersupplies/underthehood.html

Quote

Most regulated power supplies today are either Switch Mode Power Supplies (SMPS), or linear power supplies. Our power supplies are based on the SuperTeddyReg, a different technology which has proved to be far superior for audio designs.

the quoted page makes it pretty clear it isn't an SMPS or a linear.

It also has a graph with measurements, for what they are worth. On his individual product pages the explains the graph like this:

Quote

...the graph shows the noise level measurements of the original wall wart power supply (red line), an alternative power supply based on a Liner Regulator (blue line), and the Teddy9/2 power supply (black line). The brown line is a zero Volt reference which is actually the measurement equipment internal noise. As can be seen the Teddy XXX power supply noise level is very close to the zero Volt reference.

 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment
3 hours ago, One and a half said:

The Teddy Pardo graph shows the lower freuqency 'spikes' centred on 50Hz, it's 3rd harmonic, 150Hz, and 250Hz. These spikes are from the front end diodes making their way through to the output. This tells me, there's no choke in the DC or AC input, so far from creating noise on the AC side, well, 'significant noise'... marketing.  A very crude choke would be to wrap an AC cable around a steel pipe :) At the power we are dealing with here, the cable wouldn't heat up that significantly.

 

The amount of crud entering the AC line is dependant on the source impedance of the installation and the crud value. No one has set out what this should be as a standard, since it varies from second to second.  

 

Now, the logitech switchmode peaks is all at the lower frequencies. Time and again, CA members when changing power supplies to anything other than SMPS will remark their bass is improved. No wonder since the crud from the PSU is treated as signal by the amplifier, way out of time with the music.

Still, the noise levels are low, good to see the values in db, but maybe the scaling should be the other way around. Like the Amir fiasco, it depends on how the measurement is made, but if the same instrument and method is used, we're just looking at the relativity between each model, which is fair enough, s'pose.

 

Hmm, does analog amplification logic apply to a pure digital audio device? Put another way, is a 50hz noise spike  a "choppy" sea or a "calm" sea to sail on for a device that takes Ethernet frames in, processes them, and outputs coax/spdif/hdmi? Not saying it doesn't, but trying to get some sense of the model principles for PS noise interference with digital. I know that I have experienced 60hz audible interference from a bad wallwart PS on a switch upstream CAT6 connected to microRendu... kind of like all the low volume signal level information was put through a blender. But that seemed pretty extreme, the wallwart was audibly humming when I put my ear near it.

Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

Link to comment
7 hours ago, One and a half said:

The Teddy Pardo graph shows the lower freuqency 'spikes' centred on 50Hz, it's 3rd harmonic, 150Hz, and 250Hz. These spikes are from the front end diodes making their way through to the output. This tells me, there's no choke in the DC or AC input, so far from creating noise on the AC side, well, 'significant noise'... marketing

 

 Exactly !

  I certainly hadn't missed those mains related spikes either, which is why I found the claim about no noise back into the A.C. mains as a little incredulous.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

Link to comment
10 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Just saw this review,  it was interesting as a "what does it sound like" comparison of ultraRendu vs SMS-200ultra

and for the LPS1 vs SPS 500 vs Paul Hynes SR7 power supplies.

 I haven't time to read this right now, but I presume he is still using a capacitance multiplier ?

 A capacitance multiplier can reduce noise down to miniscule amounts, but it has been my experience with the JLH PSU add-on , that the choice of capacitors used in the capacitance multiplier section results in how it will ultimately sound.

 Electrolytic capacitors all seem to have a sound which varies with the type, manufacturer,  ESR etc.

This sound carries through the multiplier section too. In my experience, It takes a mix of different types of electros in parallel to achieve a more neutral sound signature.

In other words, PSUs with extremely low noise output, can still all sound a little different.

 

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

Link to comment

After thinking about it, the SPS-500 makes more sense for me to start with. It's adjustable voltage and can handle  the 12V/4A power draw for the Microzotl 2 preamp, I can swap it back and forth with the HDPlex for both MicroRendu and Zotl to see  where the biggest improvement gain occurs. And if it doesn't pan out, should be easy to resell.

Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

Link to comment

BTW, for those still looking at the Super TeddyReg, the attached link from a competitor may be of interest, especially the claim about the large change in voltage output under load, if it is correct as it appears to be.

 According to the  Super TeddyReg page it is a different technology to either Linear or SMPS.

That may apply to the power source that they use to feed the Super TeddyReg, but it appears to be misleading to state this , because both the  TeddyReg and Super Teddy Reg are voltage regulators following the power supply itself.

My understanding, which may be incorrect, is that the term Super TeddyReg, just like TeddyReg, applies to the voltage regulation area which also uses a capacitance multiplier, and still needs normal rectification of the A.C. mains before it, hence the mains related glitches in the posted noise level graph.

The actual PSU powering the Super TeddyReg appears to be some kind of Linear supply, but not necessarily using a conventional mains transformer. Much earlier TVs were transformerless (old Rank Arena's, Sharp etc) . but didn't use SMPS either.

They were still a variety of Linear PSU, and quite dangerous to work on !!!

I made the mistake of looking at my old Sharp CTV with a C.R.O. that was connected to mains earth and blew up a couple of rectifier diodes.:$

 

https://www.belleson.com/comparesuperted.php

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

Link to comment
3 hours ago, sandyk said:

BTW, for those still looking at the Super TeddyReg, the attached link from a competitor may be of interest, especially the claim about the large change in voltage output under load, if it is correct as it appears to be.

 According to the  Super TeddyReg page it is a different technology to either Linear or SMPS.

That may apply to the power source that they use to feed the Super TeddyReg, but it appears to be misleading to state this , because both the  TeddyReg and Super Teddy Reg are voltage regulators following the power supply itself.

My understanding, which may be incorrect, is that the term Super TeddyReg, just like TeddyReg, applies to the voltage regulation area which also uses a capacitance multiplier, and still needs normal rectification of the A.C. mains before it, hence the mains related glitches in the posted noise level graph.

The actual PSU powering the Super TeddyReg appears to be some kind of Linear supply, but not necessarily using a conventional mains transformer. Much earlier TVs were transformerless (old Rank Arena's, Sharp etc) . but didn't use SMPS either.

They were still a variety of Linear PSU, and quite dangerous to work on !!!

I made the mistake of looking at my old Sharp CTV with a C.R.O. that was connected to mains earth and blew up a couple of rectifier diodes.:$

 

https://www.belleson.com/comparesuperted.php

 

I asked Teddy if that web page was accurate. This is what he said:

 

Not only that it is not accurate, it’s irrelevant…

 

He is referring to an old STR version which is different from the circuit we use for our commercial products In addition, even with regard to the old design, he is using different transistors with different parameters than in our design, and makes the assumption that it doesn’t change the behavior, but it proves that he doesn’t understand how the circuit works, he is wrong, it totally changes the circuit behavior.

 

Kind regards,

Teddy

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...