Best (sane) choice to power micro/ultraRendu?

[sandyk]

4 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

I just found out about this power supply:

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/custom-units/products/200w-linear-power-supply

?variant=22466785860

 

The unit can power multiple devices and is very low noise. Using the variable plug set to 7VDC would have 2mV of ripple noise.

 

 Seems like a pretty decent PSU at a bargain price. A 200W R-core transformer wouldn't come cheaply either.

 

[sandyk]

17 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

Teddy Pardo says his power supply noise level is below one microvolt. That's impressive!

 

That's all ACADEMIC though, isn't it ??? (at least according to you)

You claimed elsewhere that you only needed >60dB rejection, and rejected an HDPlex PSU that didn't measure well enough !

[sandyk]

You have me confused with someone else. I don’t recall ever saying anything like that. I rejected the HDplex because I don’t need 4 power outputs. I want one output for a very specific purpose.  

My apologies if I attributed something to you that another member said.

[sandyk]

19 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

No worries. I just need to figure out which 7vdc 2A linear power supply to buy......I am leaning toward the Teddy Pardo. 

 

https://www.teddypardo.com/diy/teddyreg.html 

IRC, the original design (above) originated in Pink Fish Media. It uses a capacitance multiplier, as does the John Linsley Hood PSU add-on.

[sandyk]

2 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

Are you presenting this as a positive, negative, or just informational? 

 

The Teddy Pardo PSU I am looking at uses the "SuperTeddyReg".

 

Informational.

I knew that the Teddy Reg started out as a DIY project in  Pink Fish Media.

A DIY oriented member could build this earlier version, as it is fully documented.

[sandyk]

7 hours ago, firedog said:

 

I don't think Teddy intended it as a DIY project. He used the community at Pink Fish (which he participated in anyway) to help him refine the design. He then released the final design to the DIY world, with the request that it not be used commercially to compete with his own commercial products that use the design (he didn't patent it for that reason). 

 

Yes, he says that at the link I provided.

Actually, I don't see anything too special in that original design that would be worth a patent.

A LM317 voltage regulator followed by a Capacitance multiplier isn't anything new.

[sandyk]

4 hours ago, davide256 said:

So power supply quietness seems key for best performance, the question is what's the valid comparison metric to judge a power supply by and is there more than 1?

 

Basically, the key ingredients for a good power supply are very low noise over a wide bandwidth, and a very low output impedance over a wide bandwidth . They should also prevent voltage spikes from being generated at their output due to sudden load changes.

The original generic Positive and Negative supply voltage regulators such as the LM317/337 (adjustable) and 78xx/79xx  (fixed voltage ) don't have a wide enough bandwidth to prevent SMPS ripple at 25kHZ and higher,  and it's harmonics, from almost sailing right through to the output; although a choke ( inductor) at their input in combination with the voltage regulator's input capacitor can be used to markedly reduce the level getting through.

[sandyk]

35 minutes ago, davide256 said:

I think we have a failure to communicate, lets try again

 

from HDPlex website  the ripple voltage on the 200W LPS  " <3mv on 19VDC/12VDC/9V/5V output. "

 

On a 7v signal, how much less than 3mv does the ripple noise have to be to make a difference? Does the Teddy Pardo perform better?

 

It wasn't a failure to communicate.

 I only addressed the last part of your question as shown in the quote I attached.

 

I doubt that anybody knows the actual PSU noise voltage at which the differences are only Academic !

All I can definitely say is that even the 40uV ebay offering can be further improved on.

The Teddy Pardo regulator (at least in the original version) has a capacitance multiplier section, which further reduces noise from the voltage regulator by a substantial amount.

My friend's 300W HDPlex benefits substantially from the additional filtering of the Adjustable Output using a JLH PSU add-on, and would also undoubtedly do so too using a suitably Current rated PSU add on from Teddy Pardo etc.

You would need to adjust the HDPlex's  Adjustable Output voltage to a higher level to accommodate the additional voltage drop via these other devices.

[sandyk]

On ‎17‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 11:27 AM, Speed Racer said:

I am not really interested in an HD flex solution....

 

Okay, I have narrowed it down to these 2:

 

https://www.teddypardo.com/powersupplies/teddy7-2.html

 

and this:

 

https://ciaudio.com/product/vdc•7-mkii-upgrade-power-supply/

 

The Teddy Pardo is $369 and the CI Audio is $329. I don't have specs yet on the Teddy Pardo but the CI Audio PS runs at about 2 microvolts of noise. That is pretty damn quiet.

 

There doesn't appear to be anything too special about the Ci offering, other than the transformer used MAY(?)  be a little better than a quality R-core type, and the use of 20,000uF of filter capacitance. It's noise level will be orders of magnitude higher than that of the other unit, although it will be a better than average PSU.

 

Quote

Key features include:

• Low Noise 35VA EI Core Transformer
• High Quality Schurter switched IEC Power Inlet
• Schottky Bridge Rectifier Diodes
• Over 20,000uF of filter Capacitance
• Polypropylene bypass capacitors
• Selectable 120/240V Input Voltage

 

 

[sandyk]

24 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

The CI Audio is supposed to be at 2 microvolts of noise....but I ordered the Teddy Pardo.

 

 

 In which case they have missed listing one of the key features !!!

 Neither is there any mention of the output noise level at the link you provided , in the Specifications.

You would expect them to boast about something like that, if it was WAY better than average.

None of the Key Features quoted , are by themselves, able to reduce the output noise level into the <100uV region, let alone 2uV.

[sandyk]

Just now, Speed Racer said:

 

Here is a CI Audio chart I posted in another thread:

 

 

 

The lines are Audio Precision noise floor, VDC at idle, and max rated power.

 

 Are you sure that it's for the model that you linked to ?

 

If it is actually that quiet, then they are doing themselves a big disservice by not stating something like that in any of the specifications at the link you posted.

[sandyk]

6 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Yes, I am sure.

 

I bought the Pardo because it is suppose to be 1 microvolt and more people have heard of the company in regards to power supplies. That way, if it doesn't do enough to reduce noise in my particular setup, I have a better chance of reselling it.

 Are you SURE that the Pardo is a Linear PSU, and using a transformer ?

Another member , in a different thread, recently remarked that they are very light. The cases in their photos are very small too.

An SMPS PSU can have a very low noise output level, but still throw quite a bit of rubbish back into the A.C. mains to affect other devices.

Perhaps I missed seeing whether they use SMPS or Linear in their blurb ?

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, firedog said:

Look at Teddy's site, where he favorably compares his tech to linear supplies; it isn't a linear supply, just a low noise one.

 

At a quick glance , I didn't see him do more than compare both technologies, but didn't seem to say whether he used SMPS or Linear supply for the Low noise regulator section.

IIRC, iFi USB also had a very low noise output, but being SMPS sent quite a bit of rubbish back into the A.C. mains supply, and quite a few members preferred a Linear PSU over it for this reason. 

 

 P.S.

The size of the case in the photo,( judging by the size of the rocker switch) suggests to me that there is inadequate room inside for a conventional 30VA transformer. 

[sandyk]

6 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

So 1 microvolt of DC noise and no noise injection back into the AC mains. What's not to love?

 

 Even the best supplies from J.S. inject a  little noise back into the mains, and that includes the JS-1 Ultracap supply.

Sounds a little too good to be true.

[sandyk]

4 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Maybe, but people that sell high end power supplies don't keep their hard earned reputations by lying....so I would be much more inclined to believe him than call him a liar!

 

 

 Measurements ?

[sandyk]

7 hours ago, One and a half said:

The Teddy Pardo graph shows the lower freuqency 'spikes' centred on 50Hz, it's 3rd harmonic, 150Hz, and 250Hz. These spikes are from the front end diodes making their way through to the output. This tells me, there's no choke in the DC or AC input, so far from creating noise on the AC side, well, 'significant noise'... marketing

 

 Exactly !

  I certainly hadn't missed those mains related spikes either, which is why I found the claim about no noise back into the A.C. mains as a little incredulous.

[sandyk]

10 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Just saw this review,  it was interesting as a "what does it sound like" comparison of ultraRendu vs SMS-200ultra

and for the LPS1 vs SPS 500 vs Paul Hynes SR7 power supplies.

 I haven't time to read this right now, but I presume he is still using a capacitance multiplier ?

 A capacitance multiplier can reduce noise down to miniscule amounts, but it has been my experience with the JLH PSU add-on , that the choice of capacitors used in the capacitance multiplier section results in how it will ultimately sound.

 Electrolytic capacitors all seem to have a sound which varies with the type, manufacturer,  ESR etc.

This sound carries through the multiplier section too. In my experience, It takes a mix of different types of electros in parallel to achieve a more neutral sound signature.

In other words, PSUs with extremely low noise output, can still all sound a little different.

 

[sandyk]

BTW, for those still looking at the Super TeddyReg, the attached link from a competitor may be of interest, especially the claim about the large change in voltage output under load, if it is correct as it appears to be.

 According to the  Super TeddyReg page it is a different technology to either Linear or SMPS.

That may apply to the power source that they use to feed the Super TeddyReg, but it appears to be misleading to state this , because both the  TeddyReg and Super Teddy Reg are voltage regulators following the power supply itself.

My understanding, which may be incorrect, is that the term Super TeddyReg, just like TeddyReg, applies to the voltage regulation area which also uses a capacitance multiplier, and still needs normal rectification of the A.C. mains before it, hence the mains related glitches in the posted noise level graph.

The actual PSU powering the Super TeddyReg appears to be some kind of Linear supply, but not necessarily using a conventional mains transformer. Much earlier TVs were transformerless (old Rank Arena's, Sharp etc) . but didn't use SMPS either.

They were still a variety of Linear PSU, and quite dangerous to work on !!!

I made the mistake of looking at my old Sharp CTV with a C.R.O. that was connected to mains earth and blew up a couple of rectifier diodes.

 

https://www.belleson.com/comparesuperted.php

[sandyk]

19 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

I asked Teddy if that web page was accurate. This is what he said:

 

Not only that it is not accurate, it’s irrelevant…

 

He is referring to an old STR version which is different from the circuit we use for our commercial products In addition, even with regard to the old design, he is using different transistors with different parameters than in our design, and makes the assumption that it doesn’t change the behavior, but it proves that he doesn’t understand how the circuit works, he is wrong, it totally changes the circuit behavior.

 

Kind regards,

Teddy

 Does he provide a graph for Voltage regulation vs. load current , as most normal voltage regulator data sheets do ?

 That's the area that most concerns me in light of the Belleson claim, who BTW., also have an excellent reputation for their voltage regulators..

[sandyk]

8 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

 

What is your deal with this? You don't like Teddy Pardo power supplies? Don't buy them. But don't crap on them when you don't know crap about them.

 

The Teddy Pardo power supply has an excellent reputation. I suspect Teddy has forgotten more about power supplies than you will ever know. I did the research and found overwhelmingly positive comments regarding his commercial power supplies.

 

 You asked for advice about choosing a power supply.

 I simply provided further information, some of which was not favourable, although perhaps biased for commercial reasons.

This is quite a bit different to people like yourself who crap in threads without providing any technical information.

As a result of my research you now know a lot more about this PSU than you did previously, and enough further information to discuss the claimed PSU deficiencies PSU with it's designer.

[sandyk]

3 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

That's not what you are "simply" doing. You are looking for anything negative you can find on the Teddy Pardo power supply "simply" because I chose to order one. All the negatives you have found don't apply or have been refuted. If you find pertinent data, negative or positive, on the actually Teddy Pardo power supply I ordered, feel free to post it. Unsubstantiated competitor rants don't qualify....

If I had found any POSITIVE independent technical reports, not just Fanboi type stuff, I would have posted that too.

I looked further into the subject as I have an interest in that area, and I feel sure that some other members would also like to know more about the actual design.

Even now, we still know 5/8 of SFA about how the front end before the very low noise regulator section works.

[sandyk]

10 minutes ago, davide256 said:

hmm, how to say this. I am underwhelmed at the difference  between the HDPlex and the SPS-500 at a first listen feeding the microRendu. I'm going to give this the benefit of the doubt, that the lack of improvement is due to limitations of the Gustard U12 asynch USB converter. Hopefully Schitt will come though with my back-ordered Eitr  end of next week and I can try again after it settles in. Life is a lot, lot better though using the SPS-500 with the Microzotl 2

 

Dave

I presume that the HDPlex is a Linear PSU ?

 The SPS500 appears to be a SMPS , judging by the wide AC voltage input range without a selector switch, and the .pdf which doesn't appear to give too much away, including output noise level.

If you have access to a DMM, try measuring for A.C. voltage between it's metal case and mains earth.

If you read a fairly high A.C. voltage, it will almost certainly be an SMPS in use, and possibly also benefit from the 0 volts being earthed, although I would first try something  like a 22 to 100 ohms resistor to earth instead initially, instead of a direct connection to mains earth to see if it improves. 

 

Alex

 

http://docs.sotm-audio.com/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=manuals:sps-500_user_guide_rev1.1.pdf

[sandyk]

7 hours ago, davide256 said:

hmm, can try but the U12 has already given me fits where the DBS feature on the AQ cable  breaks 176/192 DAC coax synch yet works with iFi Nano for asynch USB to coax conversion... having to use Toslink with it. The DMM shows about 163 mv between ground and case, not sure if that matters. If its an SMPS, I'm not going to complain, the playback difference  powering Zotl 2 headphone/pre-amp is like switching from bookshelf to full size speakers.

 

You may need to check that the 0 volts ("earth" side) of the PSU is connected to the case. It may not be.

You may need to measure AC from 0 volts to mains earth to be sure.

If you still only read a couple of hundred mV then I wouldn't be worried about it.

Most consumer SMPS devices read as high as half the actual mains supply voltage to mains earth from 0 volts.

 

[sandyk]

7 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

The Teddy Pardo power supply just showed and is now installed in my system. There are no SMPS anywhere near my audio components now. Yay!!

 

 Way to go !

Do you watch DTV using your Audio system , or rely on your TV's usually crappy tiny speakers, with typically cheap and nasty generic  Class D amplifiers to drive them ?

[sandyk]

26 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

Then, listening to Norah Jones’ “Come Away with Me” and “Don’t Know Why” it became clear. There was a reduction in sibilance that made her voice easier to listen to even at higher volume settings. Also, that tendency for voice to sound a little nasally was gone.

 

 That is a good album for checking out these things.  The lower the system noise etc. the better this album sounds,

with the improvements that you have noticed.