CLOCKS, what should we look for in next generation

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

Absolutely. Moreover the entire DAC circuitry affects the phase noise which you ultimately get.

Doesn't it make sense for a single competent manufacturer to design the player and dac to work together? 

Should be more cost effective too, than 2 separate boxes.  I don't understand the rational to convert network to usb unless it is to satisfy people who already own a dac....

Regardless of different opinions, that is the route I will likely take, unless it was uniformly stated that it is not possible for SQ reasons to both both in one box.

 

[beerandmusic]

10 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

No way and I am sure that nobody thinks that.

 

 

100% sure not the case.

 

 

And I personally don't know why on earth you think that you upset people. OK, you quote me for it, so it must be me myself doing it.

No-way.

 

Where it may go wrong in your thinking (about the upsetting subject) is that the things I tell you (for advice) are genuine with zero in between any lines. I am Dutch. That this coincidentally incorporates a but of so-called knowledge about the subject is, well, coincidence, but it allows be to give you this advice(s).

It really is nothing of "go away". That is only for trolls.

 

It would be true that with your many new threads it looks like you occupy 1000s of people with your thoughts and questions and that at some stage people react in a "oh no, not again". Still you manage to imply fairly good discussions (me thinks) and I sense that your questions are not so bad at all because they mostly contain a base for good discussions. It is only that the responses will not help you much because it is "too much" to digest. Of course someone like me can't decide over that, so here too it would be "advice" only.

But hey, it goes too far already by talking about this explicitly. Best thing for now is : don't feel sad because I don't think there is a reason for it.

 

HTH

Peter

 

 

Well thanks for ALL of this...sincerely!   And no, it wasn't you or any one person....I have had a few people call me out...but mostly just for creating a lot of "simplistic" threads.  Certainly not as rough of a crowd as some of the religion forums I have entertained in the past (grin).

 

I think i have gained as much information as i wanted now, so i will try to cool it on the thread making (applause).  Hell, i can't even think of another topic i would want to start.....too bad their isn't a religion forum here.

 

[jabbr]

15 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

Doesn't it make sense for a single competent manufacturer to design the player and dac to work together? 

That’s happening but perhaps not with the features you want. The market is very tight and think about it supposed there were a profit of $1k on each DAC, how many would have to be made in order to make it worthwhile to take the risk of s new product?

If you want a checklist of features, there are a host of companies set up to give you the checklist. But if your checklist is large and there aren’t many people with your identical checklist then you may not find what you are looking for at the price you are looking for. 

I mean if you can get 1000 friends together and prepay, I’d make you something according to what you are looking for  

[beerandmusic]

27 minutes ago, jabbr said:

That’s happening but perhaps not with the features you want. The market is very tight and think about it supposed there were a profit of $1k on each DAC, how many would have to be made in order to make it worthwhile to take the risk of s new product?

If you want a checklist of features, there are a host of companies set up to give you the checklist. But if your checklist is large and there aren’t many people with your identical checklist then you may not find what you are looking for at the price you are looking for. 

I mean if you can get 1000 friends together and prepay, I’d make you something according to what you are looking for  

 

I have a lot of features i would want, but none that are deal breakers...the only must haves would be

 

:: one box

DSD compatible

 RAAT and UPNP supported

sotm ultra magic juice (I am guessing it is the ocxo) that makes it any different than any other streamer.

You don't even need the usb itnerface

just pair it with a dac (mono mono ess9038 similar to gustard, lks) in one box with quality switching power supply that can be swapped out with LPS as later upgrade.

Is noise suppression circuitry even needed if good clocking and no usb interface?  (not gospel, but some indian engineer told me if you have a god clock you don't need to worry about noise suppression).

I am not an audio engineer, so i am not going to say the stuff that would be required for optimal SQ.

 

I know one feature I would want, but many could care less, and would not be a deal breaker for me, but would love it if web control was possible, and probably the feature, that i will likely have to do without....ultimately i will probably buy into roon, but if it had web control (similar to brystons), i probably never would. 

 

I am convinced though, that a slew of new network players will start hitting the market soon, and I will find what will satisfy.  I think something similar to the LUMIN D1 paired with a good clock and a pair of 9038s, a quality swtiching ps (that can be upgraded later to a LPS) would be the ticket.

 

 

 

[beerandmusic]

another concept would be a "sonica v2" (or even a oppo205v2)

The sonica has a lot of versaitility, and i know that it has mediocre reviews, but the DIY forums suggest mods transform it into a wonderful piece of gear.  I don't know what is different between a sonica (really good bang for the buck), and what parts would be needed to transform it into something very good....a better clock?  an LPS?  but it seems if they can deliver such a versatile product that it could be improved upon into a decent network player for not a lot of money?  I am sure oppo reads and hears about what people do, and that eventually they will come out with a V2 model, that may be worthy of a good review.

[jabbr]

48 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

Is noise suppression circuitry even needed if good clocking and no usb interface?  (not gospel, but some indian engineer told me if you have a god clock you don't need to worry about noise suppression).

Whaaaat? That’s absurd. Clocks aren’t magic. It’s all about noise. 

[pkane2001]

 

1 hour ago, beerandmusic said:

(not gospel, but some indian engineer told me if you have a god clock you don't need to worry about noise suppression).

 

Where do I get one of these? I bet you the sound quality is sublime....

[beerandmusic]

19 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Whaaaat? That’s absurd. Clocks aren’t magic. It’s all about noise. 

My thinking is that much of noise is the result of improper clocking, that elementary circuitry should be able to compensate for small imperfections in a binary signal.

[beerandmusic]

Just now, pkane2001 said:

 

 

Where do I get one of these? I bet you the sound quality is sublime....

haha....good catch....i think we all need a "god clock".

[mansr]

1 minute ago, beerandmusic said:

haha....good catch....i think we all need a "god clock".

Would've been funnier if you'd dropped the L instead.

[beerandmusic]

curiosity before i forget....off topic...

 

what type of clocks are used in "reclockers" e.g. ifi igalvanic3...does this go in positive direction of this topic, or is that a whole different clocking thing?

 

 

[beerandmusic]

3 minutes ago, mansr said:

 

nvm...

[pkane2001]

9 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

what type of clocks are used in "reclockers" e.g. ifi igalvanic3...does this go in positive direction of this topic, or is that a whole different clocking thing?

 

USB reclockers are a very different thing than the DAC clock. The most important clock is the one that directly affects the output of the DAC.

 

iGalvanic, many USB hubs, ISO Regen, etc. all re-clock the USB data before it reaches the DAC. All of that data is later re-clocked by the DAC clock. It's the errors at the DAC clock that turn into (a possibly audible) jitter. 

 

[davide256]

7 hours ago, esldude said:

I'm calling BS on this because that is what it is.  BS, revisionist history.  Your description is not what happened.  

 

If you disagree with the opinion on current streamers fine, don't put out crappy misinformation about the past doing so. 

I lived it... apparently you weren't born, or were outside the audiophile community at the time. Or perhaps worked for one of the businesses selling Denon turntables?

[beerandmusic]

3 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

USB reclockers are a very different thing than the DAC clock. The most important clock is the one that directly affects the output of the DAC.

 

iGalvanic, many USB hubs, ISO Regen, etc. all re-clock the USB data before it reached the DAC. All of that data is later re-clocked by the DAC clock. It's the errors at the DAC clock that turn into (a possibly audible) jitter. 

 

ok, thanks for that info. 

Is it possible that if we didnt have a usb interface, e.g. network to dac in one box, that we could just have one clock?

 

my logic suggests to me that "possibly audible jitter" really is loss in detail.

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

Is it possible that if we didnt have a usb interface, e.g. network to dac in one box, that we could just have one clock?

One clock for everything in the whole playback chain? What would be the advantage of that?

[pkane2001]

Just now, beerandmusic said:

ok, thanks for that info. 

Is it possible that if we didnt have a usb interface, e.g. network to dac, that we could just have one clock?

my logic suggests to me that "possibly audible jitter" really is loss in detail.

 

Large amount of jitter is certainly audible. But jitter is measurable, and so can be quantified.

 

I strongly suspect USB reclockers don't do much to improve sound quality. Network layer requires its own clocks, so you don't eliminate an extra clock when using ethernet, etc. But, again, timing errors on a USB connection or on a ethernet one do not directly translate into audible jitter. Only the DAC clock and errors at that clock can do that. 

 

[beerandmusic]

11 minutes ago, mansr said:

One clock for everything in the whole playback chain? What would be the advantage of that?

I don't know...i would think the whole purpose of clocking is to get the digital signal to the converter accurately....don't know why we would need more than one clock?  But i am not an audio engineer....

 

[pkane2001]

2 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

I don't know...i would think the whole purpose of clocking is to get the digital signal to the converter accurately....don't know why we would need more than one clock?  But i am not an audio engineer....

 

That's not right. The purpose of clocking is to get the digital samples out to the output of the DAC at a precise interval. That's all that counts, anything else is noise.

[beerandmusic]

3 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

That's not right. The purpose of clocking is to get the digital samples out to the output of the DAC at a precise interval. That's all that counts, anything else is noise.

you mean to the input?....i don't want digital samples on the output (grin)....but still why not just one clock?

Nevermind, i don't want to get into the weeds.....I am sure there are reasons.

[pkane2001]

Just now, beerandmusic said:

you mean to the input...i don't want digital samples on the output (grin).

 

No, I meant the output. Each digital sample is sent through the D2A converter and the resulting voltage must be output at a precise interval. That's the clock that counts, the one that feeds the digital samples into the D2A circuit to be output. All other clocks upstream of that one are mostly irrelevant, and their timing is not related to analog output when using USB or network interfaces.

 

[beerandmusic]

1 minute ago, pkane2001 said:

 

No, I meant the output. Each digital sample is sent through the D2A converter and the resulting voltage must be output at a precise interval. That's the clock that counts, the one that feeds the digital samples into the D2A circuit to be output. All other clocks upstream of that one are mostly irrelevant, and their timing is not related to analog output when using USB or network interfaces.

 

ok, thanks....just do it right, and let me know when it's done, and at my price point.(grin)

[pkane2001]

Just now, beerandmusic said:

ok, thanks....just do it right (grin).

 

Yes, get the internal DAC clock right and make sure there's sufficient isolation to stop the noise from external clocks and transmissions from affecting this internal clock, and you'll have an extremely low-jitter playback, regardless of what transmission interface you use.

 

[davide256]

In theory the gear we have should be fine for clock accuracy. But under real life use...  we hear differences and improvements. The only common factors I've been able to pick out where life gets better is improved power supplies, and better executed board hardware

[beerandmusic]

6 minutes ago, davide256 said:

In theory the gear we have should be fine for clock accuracy. But under real life use...  we hear differences and improvements. The only common factors I've been able to pick out where life gets better is improved power supplies, and better executed board hardware

have you messed with sotm ultra?  or you are not a believer also?