Solid State Hard Drives

[kumakuma]

21 minutes ago, DEANO2 said:

Yes My apologies,  I should have clarified.  There are certain things we can't get from the US now the free trade agreements were torn up . Music from Hd Tracks, stuff from Amazon like things made in Asia. But not to worry won't be long wait before thing's are back to normal . 

 

Trump hasn't torn up any free trade agreements... yet.

 

He pulled the U.S. out of TPP negotiations and Canada, Mexico, and the U.S. are currently discussing changing the terms of NAFTA but that's about it.

[darkmass]

First, let me state I have nothing against SSDs.  In fact, I recently replaced the secondary drive in my laptop (with two internal hard drive bays)...the secondary drive was a perfectly functioning Samsung 512GB 850 Pro SSD, which I replaced with a new Samsung 1.92TB SM863a SSD (an "enterprise" part). Well, I was running out of working room.  The main drive, however, is not SSD, the main drive is a 750GB 7200rpm drive with a 20GB Intel SLC cache.

 

But what may bear some discussion in this thread could be the failure characteristics of spinning drives versus SSDs.

 

Spinning drives are generally reputed to fail with some advance warnings, and even after failure the full data can often be recovered.  On the other hand, SSDs seem to have the reputation of failing like someone flicked a light switch--instantly gone--and with no data recovery possible.  As always, of course, backing up important data is necessary no matter what type of drive.  But it strikes me that SSDs generally have a much more catastrophic way of failing.

[Ralf11]

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/10/31/16582018/intel-optane-p900-ssd-fast-dram-nand-flash-memory-desktop-computer

[mansr]

37 minutes ago, darkmass said:

But what may bear some discussion in this thread could be the failure characteristics of spinning drives versus SSDs.

 

Spinning drives are generally reputed to fail with some advance warnings, and even after failure the full data can often be recovered.  On the other hand, SSDs seem to have the reputation of failing like someone flicked a light switch--instantly gone--and with no data recovery possible.  As always, of course, backing up important data is necessary no matter what type of drive.  But it strikes me that SSDs generally have a much more catastrophic way of failing.

This aspect has me wary of SSDs as well. My OS and important data are on a RAID-6 of enterprise HDDs. I also have an NVMe SSD for throwaway data that just needs to be fast.

[darkmass]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

This aspect has me wary of SSDs as well. My OS and important data are on a RAID-6 of enterprise HDDs. I also have an NVMe SSD for throwaway data that just needs to be fast.

Your approach is eminently sensible.  On the smaller scale of my laptop, the OS and my applications go on the spinning drive, with the SLC cache (which is not part of the spinning drive itself) keeping that side of things reasonably fast.  The large SSD is all fast working space with things ultimately getting archived on (a mirror pair of) external rotating drives, or thrown away.

 

As a thought experiment, it seems to me that using SSDs for music server storage has its particular risks.  The music would generally be "write-once", to get an item into place, then selections would potentially be read over and over from those fixed storage locations.  The reading part of that seems to me to be just the thing to electrically wear an SSD.  And SSD storage locations can only survive a finite amount of wear.

[mansr]

4 minutes ago, darkmass said:

As a thought experiment, it seems to me that using SSDs for music server storage has its particular risks.  The music would generally be "write-once", to get an item into place, then selections would potentially be read over and over from those fixed storage locations.  The reading part of that seems to me to be just the thing to electrically wear an SSD.  And SSD storage locations can only survive a finite amount of wear.

NAND flash is tricky stuff. Blocks have a limited number of erase cycles, and stored data fades over time. Even reads cause incur some wear. For reliable operation, writes need to be spread evenly, and static data needs to be refreshed. Unlike HDDs, SSDs have no such thing as write-once blocks. Any block can be relocated at any time. It's all down to the controller, of which you have no knowledge.

[sandyk]

Google "How do SSDs work " and read the article from Extreme Tech.

[DEANO2]

In regard to myself I am not using SSD for music storage , that is being catered by my Nas drive.  My intent is to use the SSD as my boot and music renderer. 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

6 hours ago, darkmass said:

Your approach is eminently sensible.  On the smaller scale of my laptop, the OS and my applications go on the spinning drive, with the SLC cache (which is not part of the spinning drive itself) keeping that side of things reasonably fast.  The large SSD is all fast working space with things ultimately getting archived on (a mirror pair of) external rotating drives, or thrown away.

 

As a thought experiment, it seems to me that using SSDs for music server storage has its particular risks.  The music would generally be "write-once", to get an item into place, then selections would potentially be read over and over from those fixed storage locations.  The reading part of that seems to me to be just the thing to electrically wear an SSD.  And SSD storage locations can only survive a finite amount of wear.

 

Hmmmn methinks I should back up more frequently !

 

My music drive is a 1TB SSD and really should get 2TB. I do more or less regularly back up to large HDD but will do "more" rather than less. I just recently had a weird situation in JRiver where I had hundreds of duplicates in my library. I did a "smartlist" to identify all duplicates and hit delete for the duplicates, I thought. You guessed it, both instances went poof! Stupid me. Fortunately I was able to sync them back from my backup drive. A new import and no duplicates! All good. So not just drive failure can cause data loss, so can operator failure .

 

 

[sandyk]

40 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

Hmmmn methinks I should back up more frequently !

 Hi David

 Did you or anybody else, try my suggestion about Googling "How do SSDs work-from Extreme Tech "

 I was on my mobile at the time,so I didn't give the actual link.

 The reverse is true, it's Write Cycles, not Reading, that causes the degradation over a period of time.

Regards

Alex

 

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/210492-extremetech-explains-how-do-ssds-work

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

13 hours ago, sandyk said:

 Hi David

 Did you or anybody else, try my suggestion about Googling "How do SSDs work-from Extreme Tech "

 I was on my mobile at the time,so I didn't give the actual link.

 The reverse is true, it's Write Cycles, not Reading, that causes the degradation over a period of time.

Regards

Alex

 

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/210492-extremetech-explains-how-do-ssds-work

 

Okay, that makes me feel a bit better.Thanks Alex

 

 

[DEANO2]

On 10/11/2017 at 8:23 AM, GUTB said:

Guys, no excuses. SSDs only. You can get them off eBay and AliExpress if you can't benefit from Amazon. If you're serious about this hobby the SSD price premium is a drop in the bucket.

 

Only exception is if you have huge storage requirements that would cost you too much, in which case go get a QNAP or something with an SFP link to optically isolate it from your listening environment. 

 

 

I was pretty amazed just how quick SSD are, secondly I found the bass is deeper and the treble a little more sparkly 

[marce]

I use RAID HDD for back up storage, two identical NAS drives, 6TB each 3 available with RAID 1. SSD drives for OS and other write limited data, fast read required. For example my RAW files are stored on SSD, as they never change, my Lightroom stuff resides on a HDD as it does lots of writing. In my work laptop swapped the HDD for a SSD, initial load up incredible, otherwise no real difference, but most of the work is memory based, with disk access only for saving. So I mix and match depending on the requirements... As data is buffered, and music gets distributed wirelessly I don't worry about noise. 

Noise... different noise spectrum's from each as HDD has a mechanical element and thus a motor, SSD has multiple gates switching simultaneously, leading to higher levels of simultaneous switching noise.

As an aside after many moons of self debate I have decided on my initial new set up for when (if ever we move, builders, plumbers, electricians etc. in the UK seem to work to their own time scale, all seem to have multiple jobs on the go at once and winning the lottery is a better bet than getting work finished on time!!!) I get in my new abode.. Having observed the complexity many go to (and related stress) I have decided to go simple, ATC40A's and CDA2...

Sorry for OT.

Oh and thanks for so many diverging views, that is what made me go for what has been a life (almost) long dream, to own ATC actives.

[sandyk]

8 hours ago, marce said:

I use RAID HDD for back up storage, two identical NAS drives, 6TB each 3 available with RAID 1. SSD drives for OS and other write limited data, fast read required. For example my RAW files are stored on SSD, as they never change, my Lightroom stuff resides on a HDD as it does lots of writing. In my work laptop swapped the HDD for a SSD, initial load up incredible, otherwise no real difference, but most of the work is memory based, with disk access only for saving. So I mix and match depending on the requirements... As data is buffered, and music gets distributed wirelessly I don't worry about noise. 

Noise... different noise spectrum's from each as HDD has a mechanical element and thus a motor, SSD has multiple gates switching simultaneously, leading to higher levels of simultaneous switching noise.

As an aside after many moons of self debate I have decided on my initial new set up for when (if ever we move, builders, plumbers, electricians etc. in the UK seem to work to their own time scale, all seem to have multiple jobs on the go at once and winning the lottery is a better bet than getting work finished on time!!!) I get in my new abode.. Having observed the complexity many go to (and related stress) I have decided to go simple, ATC40A's and CDA2...

Sorry for OT.

Oh and thanks for so many diverging views, that is what made me go for what has been a life (almost) long dream, to own ATC actives.

 Marc

 Thanks for sharing.

Regards

Alex

[Summit]

14 hours ago, marce said:

I use RAID HDD for back up storage, two identical NAS drives, 6TB each 3 available with RAID 1. SSD drives for OS and other write limited data, fast read required. For example my RAW files are stored on SSD, as they never change, my Lightroom stuff resides on a HDD as it does lots of writing. In my work laptop swapped the HDD for a SSD, initial load up incredible, otherwise no real difference, but most of the work is memory based, with disk access only for saving. So I mix and match depending on the requirements... As data is buffered, and music gets distributed wirelessly I don't worry about noise. 

Noise... different noise spectrum's from each as HDD has a mechanical element and thus a motor, SSD has multiple gates switching simultaneously, leading to higher levels of simultaneous switching noise.

As an aside after many moons of self debate I have decided on my initial new set up for when (if ever we move, builders, plumbers, electricians etc. in the UK seem to work to their own time scale, all seem to have multiple jobs on the go at once and winning the lottery is a better bet than getting work finished on time!!!) I get in my new abode.. Having observed the complexity many go to (and related stress) I have decided to go simple, ATC40A's and CDA2...

Sorry for OT.

Oh and thanks for so many diverging views, that is what made me go for what has been a life (almost) long dream, to own ATC actives.

 

That data is buffered, and music gets distributed wireless don't mean noise are eliminated. If buffering data was enough nothing upstream of the DAC would be of importance, and it is.

 

With Wi-Fi LAN, a computer has to be equipped with a wireless network interface controller. The problem is all Wi-Fi LAN within range share the same radio frequency and all will transmit and receive at the same time as the signal you want. This is a grooving problem as more and more devices are transmitting wireless. Wi-Fi transmission is also not guaranteed to be delivered intact and are made on a “best-effort” delivery mechanism.

 

It’s a known fact that Wi-Fi connections get disturb by other devices in the same area. Wi-Fi pollution interfere with many other Wi-Fi devices reducing the signal-to-noise ratio between access points. This increase are proportional to the Wi-Fi access points in an area. Many other gear like: microwave ovens, mobile phones, security cameras, Bluetooth devices are also transmitting on 2.4 GHz band. Newer devices can be made to transmit on 5.8 gigahertz instead, because of this, but the number that use this 5.8 gigahertz frequency are increasing and we are back on square one. Wi-Fi is in many ways like radio and share some of its problem. So the reduce in noise by not transmit over a LAN cable has to be compared to all the noise it’s picking up and the noise that are generated by the cheap Wi-Fi transmitter and receiver chips and their impact on SQ.   

[marce]

I control my network, at a level some dictators would be proud of. Everything that can be hard wired is (and I am going even further in the refurbishment) especially high bandwidth devices such as TV's. All phones and tablets and anything else the minions want to hook up are on 5.8GHz. This leaves me the 2.4GHz band free for my stuff, which is three logitechs at the moment. Printer, scanner all the other bits are hard wired, I am a bit old fashioned in my attitude to home Ethernet, I prefer hard wired via routers and switches, I do not tolerate abuse of the wireless, having complete control any unknown MAC addresses that appear are deleted and every so often I change the wireless password just for the hell of it.

I don't particularly worry about the data not getting through, its buffered, I tend to listen at night when everything else is in sleep mode, as to noise, at the moment I don't worry I am listening for fun. When I create a proper listening environment, room treatment first, then I may have to worry more, but until then, no point, to many variables.

[Summit]

The different between different types of hard drives is minuscule IMO to the effect of streaming thru LAN cable or Wi-Fi.

[marce]

Looking at my last two replies I am a bit of a computer Luddite, having grown up with computer aided design and early computer unreliability you developed an obsessive compulsion to back data up, so I am always wary of new technologies until they have been on sale for a few years. When its become more common place then I will happily start to use it. Part of this is I have also seen the rush sometimes to get a product to market, often the kudos of having the first device out there is more important than a fully developed bit of kit. Being first generates a lot of free publicity within the market sector and associates the company name with being first. This can also backfire when a product is to underdeveloped and tested though.

So anything I do is done methodically, fully planned out and implemented. So any differences in will have to wait until I am satisfied with the room as it is approx 4m x 4m (!) and 3m high, with a bay window and alcove, solid floor!!!

[Summit]

9 minutes ago, marce said:

Looking at my last two replies I am a bit of a computer Luddite, having grown up with computer aided design and early computer unreliability you developed an obsessive compulsion to back data up, so I am always wary of new technologies until they have been on sale for a few years. When its become more common place then I will happily start to use it. Part of this is I have also seen the rush sometimes to get a product to market, often the kudos of having the first device out there is more important than a fully developed bit of kit. Being first generates a lot of free publicity within the market sector and associates the company name with being first. This can also backfire when a product is to underdeveloped and tested though.

So anything I do is done methodically, fully planned out and implemented. So any differences in will have to wait until I am satisfied with the room as it is approx 4m x 4m (!) and 3m high, with a bay window and alcove, solid floor!!!

 

Systematically changing one gear at the time is great no doubt. Streaming thru LAN cable is not something new and has been practices by me and others for many year now   

[marce]

When I move I will be streaming via wire and do occasionally here, just don't get to hung up over data streaming, more things to worry about. Just prefer the convenience of wireless at the moment.