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Solid State Hard Drives

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9 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

You lucky buggers !:D

 I haven't seen an SSD of that size available  for anywhere near the Au $ equivalent here.

I try to buy locally wherever possible , in case of warranty problems and return shipping if needed.

Hi mate Centercom has SSD pretty cheap up to 500 gb of course not as cheap as the US.  250 gb Samsung 850 $134.00

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9 hours ago, GUTB said:

I’ll never ever go back to HDDs. It’s not so much the raw throuput speed but the access times — SSDs, especially the high performance ones, absolutely wreck the fastest HDDs in terms of I/O speed. The latest M.2 devices are much faster still on paper, but I found that in my main PC (Samsung 960 Pro) general computing is faster compared to a high performance SSD but not by a large amount.

 

SSDs are important in your music server if you value a quick, seemless and high-SQ experience (provided you properly deal with the power noise issue). HDDs are the distant past, ignore.

Interesting but why would access times matter in the specific context of music playback? I have compared playback from internal SSD, external SSD and external HDD with and without transcoding and I could not hear any difference in my system. It is of course well possible that my system + ears are not very revealing. But I would like to understand the rational behind your argument. I am actually not surprised by my observations: the data are buffered in RAM before being sent to the USB output, I understand. Thus, I would expect that, as long as the buffering is not compromised, access times and throuput have no bearing on the outgoing data stream. I might be missing something, of course.

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33 minutes ago, nbpf said:

Interesting but why would access times matter in the specific context of music playback? I have compared playback from internal SSD, external SSD and external HDD with and without transcoding and I could not hear any difference in my system. It is of course well possible that my system + ears are not very revealing. But I would like to understand the rational behind your argument. I am actually not surprised by my observations: the data are buffered in RAM before being sent to the USB output, I understand. Thus, I would expect that, as long as the buffering is not compromised, access times and throuput have no bearing on the outgoing data stream. I might be missing something, of course.

Your assessment is spot on.

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1 hour ago, nbpf said:

Interesting but why would access times matter in the specific context of music playback? I have compared playback from internal SSD, external SSD and external HDD with and without transcoding and I could not hear any difference in my system. It is of course well possible that my system + ears are not very revealing. But I would like to understand the rational behind your argument. I am actually not surprised by my observations: the data are buffered in RAM before being sent to the USB output, I understand. Thus, I would expect that, as long as the buffering is not compromised, access times and throuput have no bearing on the outgoing data stream. I might be missing something, of course.

That’s a very rational way to look at this. 

 

I did some listening tests between SSD and HDD back in 2009 and I heard differences that surprised me. I understand how the data flow works, so it made zero sense to me from that perspective. The only thing I can think of is related to power noise. 

 

That said, I believe there are much bigger fish to fry when squeezing performance from an audio system.

 

I don’t judge though. 


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1 hour ago, nbpf said:

Interesting but why would access times matter in the specific context of music playback? I have compared playback from internal SSD, external SSD and external HDD with and without transcoding and I could not hear any difference in my system. It is of course well possible that my system + ears are not very revealing. But I would like to understand the rational behind your argument. I am actually not surprised by my observations: the data are buffered in RAM before being sent to the USB output, I understand. Thus, I would expect that, as long as the buffering is not compromised, access times and throuput have no bearing on the outgoing data stream. I might be missing something, of course.

 

I think an explanation could be the high level e.g. 5V/12V signals, and power spikes from the different electronics. I would expect such differences to be fragile and vary from system to system, cable to cable, cable routing etc, be sometimes present and othertimes not. I run CPUs connected to my DACs from RAM, just because.


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9 minutes ago, jabbr said:

I think an explanation could be the high level e.g. 5V/12V signals, and power spikes from the different electronics. I would expect such differences to be fragile and vary from system to system, cable to cable, cable routing etc, be sometimes present and othertimes not. I run CPUs connected to my DACs from RAM, just because.

How would a computer send data from a storage device to a DAC without passing RAM?

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Just now, mansr said:

How would a computer send data from a storage device to a DAC without passing RAM?

 

Of course that's how it works. There might be cross talk, power droop and ground bounce from a noisy peripheral. An ethernet hop would isolate that. I boot from iSCSI for that reason, plus it allows me to backup etc etc on the NAS itself. Once Linux boots it essentially runs from RAM anyways.


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4 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Of course that's how it works. There might be cross talk, power droop and ground bounce from a noisy peripheral.

And this would affect a DAC with it's own power supply how?

 

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2 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

I think an explanation could be the high level e.g. 5V/12V signals, and power spikes from the different electronics. I would expect such differences to be fragile and vary from system to system, cable to cable, cable routing etc, be sometimes present and othertimes not. I run CPUs connected to my DACs from RAM, just because.

I understand the point but, if power spikes from read operations can have a negative impact on sound quality, then SSDs could perhaps be actually worse than HDDs. If I was concerned about the impact of the electromagnetic field caused by read operations, I would tend to prefer devices that load data to memory at relatively slow, continuous rates to devices that  read in high bandwidth, intermittent bursts.

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4 minutes ago, nbpf said:

I understand the point but, if power spikes from read operations can have a negative impact on sound quality, then SSDs could perhaps be actually worse than HDDs. If I was concerned about the impact of the electromagnetic field caused by read operations, I would tend to prefer devices that load data to memory at relatively slow, continuous rates to devices that  read in high bandwidth, intermittent bursts.

 

That's the crux. Many people assume all SSDs are better when it comes to power, but in some cases, they could be much worse. 


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The memory modules in a SSD, just by operating, generates a lot of electrical noise which gets shoved down the power supply’s 5v rail. Now, the manner in which that noise screws things up from an audio perfective I’m not sure about — just as I’m unsure about how linear power supplies for a PC helps audio. However, the effect is real and I’ve verified it myself through testing. One of the things I tested was the SotM SATA filter which plugs into the power line only and doesn’t touch the data line.

 

I don’t want to overstate the SQ gain, though. It’s noticable and therefore significant, but it’s not HUGE. Dealing with SSD power noise is a feature of dedicated audio head PCs in which many things are done cumulatively to achieve peak audio performance.

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4 minutes ago, nbpf said:

I understand the point but, if power spikes from read operations can have a negative impact on sound quality, then SSDs could perhaps be actually worse than HDDs. If I was concerned about the impact of the electromagnetic field caused by read operations, I would tend to prefer devices that load data to memory at relatively slow, continuous rates to devices that  read in high bandwidth, intermittent bursts.

The data is always sent in bursts at the SATA link speed. When the host wants to read from a SATA device, it sends a request (FIS) for some block of data. The drive then fetches the data from the storage medium into its RAM buffer and signals the host. The host responds by checking which FIS the drive is responding to (multiple requests can be queued) and starting a DMA transfer from the drive to a previously designated destination in system RAM. A slow device will take longer to respond, but once it does, the transfer rate is the fixed. Some host controllers allow forcing a lower link speed than the maximum supported by the drive. If you believe it might make a difference, and your system supports it, you might want to try dropping the SATA link speed to 1.5 or 3 Gbps.

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^^^^^

I would be skeptical of differences without blind tests to back such theories, but either way, just another reason why a "network player/dac" is the ideal cd replacement device of the next generation, and where i would put my money....

all of this should be a mute point using today's technology of upgraded clocks and noise isolation.

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4 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

^^^^^

I would be skeptical of differences without blind tests to back such theories, but either way, just another reason why a "network player/dac" is the ideal cd replacement device of the next generation, and where i would put my money....

all of this should be a mute point using today's technology of upgraded clocks and noise isolation.

2

Ah yes, the belief that there's a panacea in a different technology. This is usually the belief espoused by those who either haven't tried the different technology or who don't quite understand either technology. 

 

Not a shot at you, just an observation from 10 years of reading about new panaceas :~)


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1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Ah yes, the belief that there's a panacea in a different technology. This is usually the belief espoused by those who either haven't tried the different technology or who don't quite understand either technology. 

 

Not a shot at you, just an observation from 10 years of reading about new panaceas :~)

 

The fact that a file can be copied to an external usb hard accurately 99.99% of the time has something to always remember to fall back on.

 

That being said,  I do not believe there is any issue with the binary data being transferred accurately to the dac.

I do believe however, that noise may be different dependent on different drive technologies, that may have interfered with DACs of previous generations that did not resolve properly for noise. 

 

My belief is that any competent dac (which may only be a few today) should have proper noise suppression circuitry in this day for any new dac costing over $500.

 

And again, another reason why I am of the opinion that network dacs will outlive pc dacs, especially inre windows pc's.

Why continue to try and resolve for a noisy pc bus instead of just using a network interfaced dac (e.g. sotm or a next generation network player (streamer/dac))

 

PS- i didn't state i didn't believe a HDD can sound better than a SSD (especially in 2009),...i just said i would be skeptical, and not take as gospel.

 

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As always what’s best depends on a number of factors. For example a SDD has much less mechanically noise than a HDD which is of more importance in a laptop or in a small NUC than in a big station PC. Not all HDD or SDD have the same storage capability, reading speed or noise profile so it’s not so easy to say. The big and very fast SSD and M.2 SSD in particular seems to generate more electrical noise. To have the OS on a small SSD is probably little better because smaller ones make less noise.   

 

I have got the best result (limited experience thou) with a 250 GB Samsung 850 for OS and a WD Green 2 TB for music in my big PC. In my NUC I can only have one 2,5 Inch hard disc (HDD or SDD) and therefore use a 1 T Samsung 850. My NUC came equipped with a 250 GB Samsung M.2 SSD which I didn’t like the sound of very much.

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5 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

The fact that a file can be copied to an external usb hard accurately 99.99% of the time has something to always remember to fall back on.

 

That being said,  I do not believe there is any issue with the binary data being transferred accurately to the dac.

I do believe however, that noise may be different dependent on different drive technologies, that may have interfered with DACs of previous generations that did not resolve properly for noise. 

 

My belief is that any competent dac (which may only be a few today) should have proper noise suppression circuitry in this day for any new dac costing over $500.

 

And again, another reason why I am of the opinion that network dacs will outlive pc dacs, especially inre windows pc's.

Why continue to try and resolve for a noisy pc bus instead of just using a network interfaced dac.

 

PS- i didn't state i didn't believe a HDD can sound better than a SSD (especially in 2009),...i just said i would be skeptical, and not take as gospel.

 

You seem to believe there's a free lunch to be had with network interfaces and with noise suppression circuitry. 


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2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You seem to believe there's a free lunch to be had with network interfaces and with noise suppression circuitry. 

I believe with recent advances in clocking, noise "toys", and network knowledge, that we are on a leap of SQ.

Free no, but better yes, and NOTEWORTHY.

I have been stating that, to my ears, native dsd over ethernet sounds better for 4 years.

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18 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

You lucky buggers !:D

 I haven't seen an SSD of that size available  for anywhere near the Au $ equivalent here.

I try to buy locally wherever possible , in case of warranty problems and return shipping if needed.

 

What is the best price (in $US please) you've seen for a 500GB SSD? I got mine from Amazon, You Aussies have Amazon do you not?


George

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6 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

What is the best price (in $US please) you've seen for a 500GB SSD? I got mine from Amazon, You Aussies have Amazon do you not?

+1 amazon....

prime member for years now....i love our costco, frys, and amazon here in usa....couldn't imagine life without them.

but you aussies have us in the desperate women department (wink)...do they still have comparative lower percentage of women to men....I will take women over costco.

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2 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

+1 amazon....

prime member for years now....i love our costco, frys, and amazon here in usa....couldn't imagine life without them.

but you aussies have us in the desparate women (wink)...do they still have a lower percentage of women to men.

 

I don't know about the ratio, but some of the women that they do have; va-va-voom!


George

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Here a 500 gb is around $220 I'll see if Amazon will send it here say for a Samsung. You must rememberthat Orange turd in the white house stopped free trade agreements.l will get back to you.

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8 hours ago, DEANO2 said:

Hi mate Centercom has SSD pretty cheap up to 500 gb of course not as cheap as the US.  250 gb Samsung 850 $134.00

 

Hi Dean

I am already using a Samsung 850 250GB, but I would love to have one of at least 500GB capacity . However, SSDs of that size are too expensive Downunder, as well as which it could be a nightmare if bought from overseas with Warranties and returns etc.

Regards

Alex


How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

 

PROFILE UPDATED 26-12-2019

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9 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

What is the best price (in $US please) you've seen for a 500GB SSD? I got mine from Amazon, You Aussies have Amazon do you not?

 

Just starting up here. In any case, a few weeks back I was running out of storage, so I ended up buying  an internal 2TB SATA HDD over the counter for Au$95


How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

 

PROFILE UPDATED 26-12-2019

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