IS EVERYTHING DEBATABLE, REALLY?

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

28 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

IS EVERYTHING DEBATABLE, REALLY?

 

Hey, don't shout!.... Peter, this is not an assault on your audio beliefs

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

27 minutes ago, Cyrus said:

"Blue has more complex and contradictory meanings than any other color."  It appears, Blue is not equal to Blue....after all!

 

Well played my friend but Peter is still on record, Blue = Blue.....Evil laughter through the building - no resonances though coz I acoustically treated all the rooms !!

[Ralf11]

The stmt. "As predicted, can't come up with the goods when challenged" is a lie, plain and simple.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

7 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

The stmt. "As predicted, can't come up with the goods when challenged" is a lie, plain and simple.

 

Enlighten us (deja vous)

[fas42]

5 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Well played my friend but Peter is still on record, Blue = Blue.....Evil laughter through the building - no resonances though coz I acoustically treated all the rooms !!

 

And,

 

 

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 

LIAR !!! 

 

I would post a whole pile of links, and confirming material, but the original links in most cases no longer work due to forum upgrades.

 However, if I did this the whole thread would be likely to be shut down by Admin.

WTF are some of you doing here in an Audiophile forum when you have no interest in contributing anything positive towards improving Computer Audio ?

 

Many of you only participate in a narrow section of the forum, and only to try and piss off/intimidate anybody in the forum who dares to post anything remotely connected with Subjective reports.

 

 

 

just to be clear, you do not believe that kumakuma's stmt #3 is correct?

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

Damn you Frank, you spoiled my next move

[sandyk]

14 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

just to be clear, you do not believe that kumakuma's stmt #3 is correct?

 

 It is NOT correct.

It should be no different opening a file in Audacity, Sound Forge or whatever , looking at it, then closing it again WITHOUT any changes, than playing it with Software and closing it again.

 However, IIRC, Dennis looked at the file in Audacity, then saved the file again, not just closed Audacity.

In other words there was a degree of processing involved.

I found that even simply removing the incorrect Header information using SF9 to make a universally playable .wav file , then saving it again results in minor degradation. Objectivist "peter the surfing alien" wrote a simple command line  program for me to do this, which resulted in less audible degradation. Some 24/192 .wav files from Barry Diament were unplayable with some players ( not Foobar 2K) because the Header info didn't meet standards of the time.

Removing the incorrect Header info made them universally playable from even the Oppo I had at the time.

[GUTB]

1s and 0s don’t exist anywhere in your digital playback chain. There are analog square waves.

[Speed Racer]

3 minutes ago, GUTB said:

1s and 0s don’t exist anywhere in your digital playback chain. There are analog square waves.

 

Really? When they go through any DDC or USB hub or USB regeneration device they are certainly ones and zeroes. When the DAC receives the digital data, it is ones and zeroes.....

[Ralf11]

3 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 It is NOT correct.

It should be no different opening a file in Audacity, Sound Forge or whatever , looking at it, then closing it again WITHOUT any changes, than playing it with Software and closing it again.

 However, IIRC, Dennis looked at the file in Audacity, then saved the file again, not just closed Audacity.

In other words there was a degree of processing involved.

I found that even simply removing the incorrect Header information using SF9 to make a universally playable .wav file , then saving it again results in minor degradation. Objectivist "peter the surfing alien" wrote a simple command line  program for me to do this, which resulted in less audible degradation. Some 24/192 .wav files from Barry Diament were unplayable with some players ( not Foobar 2K) because the Header info didn't meet standards of the time.

Removing the incorrect Header info made them universally playable from even the Oppo I had at the time.

 

Thx for clarifying.

But I don't see a mechanism that would alter SQ with a re-save of the file.

 

W/o a mechanism, I'd suggest fairly strong evidence would be needed to get engineers involved.  Say, 19 out of 20 guesses correctly distinguishing the files by several people.

[sandyk]

2 hours ago, kumakuma said:

At it's core, Alex's claim is that noise can be captured in digital data outside the bits that make up the data and that noise travels with this digital data when it copied, transferred over the Internet, or written to the CD.

 

That is utter BS,  and I have already replied to that false statement.

 

 

[opus101]

1 minute ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Really? When they go through any DDC or USB hub or USB regeneration device they are certainly ones and zeroes. When the DAC receives the digital data, it is ones and zeroes.....

 

Logic '1' and '0' are just abstractions existing in the minds of observers and designers. Digital data is actually received in voltage levels.

[sandyk]

Just now, Ralf11 said:

 

Thx for clarifying.

But I don't see a mechanism that would alter SQ with a re-save of the file.

 

W/o a mechanism, I'd suggest fairly strong evidence would be needed to get engineers involved.  Say, 19 out of 20 guesses correctly distinguishing the files by several people.

 

Please stop dragging me back into this thread. This stuff has been done to death already over the last 9 years or so.

I have already made additional info available to you via PM.

 

[Speed Racer]

Just now, opus101 said:

 

Logic '1' and '0' are just abstractions existing in the minds of observers and designers. Digital data is actually received in voltage levels.

 

Duh. The point is that the data aren't represented by analog wave forms inside digital circuits....

[opus101]

Sure they are - no 'digital waveforms' exist, only digital interpretations of analog waveforms.

 

'Data' is just an interpretation placed on various analog waveforms.

[GUTB]

Just now, Speed Racer said:

 

Duh. The point is that the data aren't represented by analog wave forms inside digital circuits....

 

There is no such thing as a "digital" circuit. A digital circuit is no different from an analog circuit. Both are simply wires carrying electricity. The difference is in how the currents are oscillated — as a square wave or by a sine wave. Square waves aren’t really square either, but rather very fast rise-fall times which are useful because transistors can easily differentiate between a -v and +v state even if badly mangled by noise. A very complex and high speed network of transistors allow designers to abstract a mathematical system on top of it, but from beginning to end, 1s and 0s have no part in any of it.

[sandyk]

An old thread worth a look at by the Newbies of the forum.

It was one of the most popular threads of the time.

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/16174-where-is-audio-truth/

[Speed Racer]

5 minutes ago, opus101 said:

Sure they are - no 'digital waveforms' exist, only digital interpretations of analog waveforms.

 

'Data' is just an interpretation placed on various analog waveforms.

 

Just now, GUTB said:

 

There is no such thing as a "digital" circuit. A digital circuit is no different from an analog circuit. Both are simply wires carrying electricity. The difference is in how the currents are oscillated — as a square wave or by a sine wave. Square waves aren’t really square either, but rather very fast rise-fall times which are useful because transistors can easily differentiate between a -v and +v state even if badly mangled by noise. A very complex and high speed network of transistors allow designers to abstract a mathematical system on top of it, but from beginning to end, 1s and 0s have no part in any of it.

 

You guys need to remember how processors work. Look up "Binary Code". Then look how chips works. They don't use analog waves. 

[opus101]

4 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

 The difference is in how the currents are oscillated — as a square wave or by a sine wave.

 

This part isn't correct - analog circuits can just as easily carry square waves.

[Speed Racer]

1 minute ago, opus101 said:

 

This part isn't correct - analog circuits can just as easily carry square waves.

 

Neither "part" is correct. This would be funny if it weren't so sad.....

[opus101]

Just now, Speed Racer said:

 

 

You guys need to remember how processors work. Look up "Binary Code". Then look how chips works. They don't use analog waves. 

 

Ah but they do - have you read the DS for a CPU? Try something fairly simple, like this one. Its from the DS for the cheapest ARM CPU known to man, the STM32F030. Note the use of voltage levels for the I/O.

[GUTB]

2 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

 

You guys need to remember how processors work. Look up "Binary Code". Then look how chips works. They don't use analog waves. 

 

You’re confused on this subject. Binary code is just an abstraction based on a low vs high voltage state. Did you know that the 1-0 binary system is simply arbitrary? You can count as many voltage states as you want. For example, in Ethernet processing, it’s 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s and 0s! It’s called PAM5.

[fas42]

17 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

Thx for clarifying.

But I don't see a mechanism that would alter SQ with a re-save of the file.

 

W/o a mechanism, I'd suggest fairly strong evidence would be needed to get engineers involved.  Say, 19 out of 20 guesses correctly distinguishing the files by several people.

 

A resave could easily alter the situation - the original may not be overwritten, but retained as backup; and the new version saved on a different part of the drive, in a highly fragmented form - or completely unfragmented. This means that the process of accessing the latest version for playing has now altered, which may tip the balance.

[Speed Racer]

You guys are too funny.  How do chips store and more data around inside the chips? It's not with analog wave forms...

 

PAM5 is used over network wiring. That's not what I am talking about.