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IS EVERYTHING DEBATABLE, REALLY?

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So, when someone like the eminent beer feature the term "subjective" prominently, is it assumed that the meaning is transparent and agreed upon? Is it possible that there are unquestioned presuppositions?

 

here's just a straightforward, non-controversial dictionary definition:

 

Quote
based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
"his views are highly subjective"
synonyms: personal, individual, emotional, instinctive, intuitive
"a subjective analysis"
antonyms: objective
  • dependent on the mind or on an individual's perception for its existence.

 

Is this what is meant?


Those who have crossed / With direct eyes, to death's other kingdom / Remember us - if at all - not as lost / Violent souls, but only / As the hollow men / The stuffed men.

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When someone says:  “science says we must,” “science says we should,” “science tells us we must,” “science tells us we should,” “science commands,” “science requires,” “science dictates,” or “science compels”, is this an appeal to authority?


Those who have crossed / With direct eyes, to death's other kingdom / Remember us - if at all - not as lost / Violent souls, but only / As the hollow men / The stuffed men.

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24 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:
44 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

It is self-explanatory Ralph

 

 

I always find it odd when people reject science.

 

So,perhaps now Ralph you can enlighten us regarding the validity of DBT with scientific evidence, you know that kind that appears in "peer reviewed journals" as KumaKura correctly pointed out (but with added insult which WGS "liked", as he does).

 

Remember, you challenged another's claim that there was no consensus on what a valid test was and another time patronizing the claimant "didn't understand"  the tests. When asked to enlighten us you declined and then you feigned not understanding the question and replied with insult about how i must be supposedly rejecting science. So again, enlighten us with your *scientific* evidence regarding the *scientific* validity of audio DBT!

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19 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Not quite. It is possible to get a playback system to fool someone, say, that a grand piano is playing - and the illusion works outside with the sound wafting from a window, inside at the other end of the house, at the doorway to the room of the speakers; and finally inside that room, with an acoustically transparent curtain hiding the source of the sound - without altering the volume at any time, for any of these positions.

 

 

I have done this several times, with the exception of the curtain.   Apart from the different location of the speakers and the piano, no way to tell.  However, in addition to obsessing over playback setup it took quite a bit of work finding the right microphone positioning. 

 

The first time I did this was in the mid 1970's,  later in the 1980's.  Speakers the first time were AR-3a's,  the second time Snell AIIIs.  Two caveats:  the recording and playback were in the same room and the music did not use the bottom three notes on the keyboard.  In both cases a 7.5 IPS 2T Tandberg recorder was used.  In the 1980's I tried the same experiment using a Nak CR-7a instead of the Tandberg and the results were unsuccessful.  Using Dolby destroyed the dynamics and without it there was excessive tape hiss, unless the recording level was jacked up at which case the tape oxide compressed the dynamics.

Interestingly, the entire recording equipment came to under $500 in the mid 1970's.

 

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19 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

Yet once again, you are jumping to conclusions.

 

It's the jumping to conclusions while invoking science as their reason that I find ironic.

 

19 minutes ago, sandyk said:

. He also has many Specialist friends in other areas, such as an Ophthalmic Surgeon (who also has another Specialist Degree)

 

The other (of two) specialist degrees being, Neurology.

 

 

 

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Hi David

 Neurology was in my original unedited version, but I haven't had my wake up coffee yet, and decided to change it in case I hadn't remembered correctly.

Regards

Alex


"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD,

you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist. - Cookie Marenco"

 

PROFILE UPDATED 30-05-2019

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20 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

careful, I have been admonished  for quoting a dictionary as it challenges the whole world order O.o!

 

Whoops! You mean the Civility thread, aka, the Clash of (Un)Civilization(s), or "If Politeness is dead, then all is permitted"?   :S


Those who have crossed / With direct eyes, to death's other kingdom / Remember us - if at all - not as lost / Violent souls, but only / As the hollow men / The stuffed men.

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15 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

We can't explain that in a single post while a whole forum deals with it. But example (Chris advises sun glasses) :

Re: 2.09 sound quality

So read that post #10, up to #12 where I quote myself from CA. This is do or die, just because of the change of Operating System, all else the same. Is this noise ? you tell me. But think it takes a life time to sort it out.

Have you tested with Windows Server OS in core mode?

 

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9 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Hi David

 Neurology was in my original unedited version, but I haven't had my wake up coffee yet, and decided to change it in case I hadn't remembered correctly.

Regards

Alex

 

Your memory is fine Alex! Dennis is one of very few that I know of that hold specialist degrees as both Surgeon and Physician. I only hold two Physician degrees on top of my two basic bachelor degrees.

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57 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

Yet once again, you are jumping to conclusions.

As a Medical Specialist of many years standing, David is well informed about Neuroscience and keeps in touch with recent developments. He also has many Specialist friends in other areas, such as an Ophthalmic Surgeon (who also has another Specialist Degree) that I have met personally, who also has a keen ear for music, and like David a system to dream about.

 Both are very unassuming, genuine people with a passion for Hi Fi.

 

So you are saying David is a neurologist?


“All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone listening to music.”

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4 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

So you are saying David is a neurologist?

 NO !

I am saying that as a Medical Specialist, with a friend who is a Neurologist, that he has an interest in, and is very well informed in this area.


"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD,

you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist. - Cookie Marenco"

 

PROFILE UPDATED 30-05-2019

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1 minute ago, sandyk said:

 NO !

I am saying that as a Medical Specialist, with a friend who is a Neurologist, that he has an interest in, and is very well informed in this area.

 

I'm confused. You've repeatedly said that engineers working in fields other than audio aren't qualified to comment on audio-related matters but yet you're saying we should consider David to be an expert in a field outside his speciality and training. 


“All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone listening to music.”

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Just now, kumakuma said:

I'm confused.

 

You were born confused ? :P

 You now have the background info you needed.

I can do without the silly types of games that wgs and his number 1 fan (You ) like to play !


"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD,

you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist. - Cookie Marenco"

 

PROFILE UPDATED 30-05-2019

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15 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

I'm confused. You've repeatedly said that engineers working in fields other than audio aren't qualified to comment on audio-related matters but yet you're saying we should consider David to be an expert in a field outside his speciality and training. 

 

Yes you are confused.

I have asked for scientific evidence about a claim and in this regard it is irrelevant what my field of expertise is or is not.

 

The area of perception however is within my area of expertise, qualifications and training. I also do have training in statistics and research methodology, although I do not claim to be expert.

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1 hour ago, kumakuma said:

 

Please take another look at his name.

 

He doesn't practice regular neuroscience, he practices audiophile neuroscience. This is a unique branch of the science akin to the audiophile physics that the high-end cable manufacturers use when marketing their products. It's a lot easier the regular kind as there's no peer reviews on publications and you can issue your own degree.

 

Thanks - that clarifies his posts.

 

My offer to re- post how to conduct valid listening tests is still open to beernusic - just start a new thread.


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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1 hour ago, Tony Lauck said:

 

I have done this several times, with the exception of the curtain.   Apart from the different location of the speakers and the piano, no way to tell.  However, in addition to obsessing over playback setup it took quite a bit of work finding the right microphone positioning. 

 

The first time I did this was in the mid 1970's,  later in the 1980's.  Speakers the first time were AR-3a's,  the second time Snell AIIIs.  Two caveats:  the recording and playback were in the same room and the music did not use the bottom three notes on the keyboard.  In both cases a 7.5 IPS 2T Tandberg recorder was used.  In the 1980's I tried the same experiment using a Nak CR-7a instead of the Tandberg and the results were unsuccessful.  Using Dolby destroyed the dynamics and without it there was excessive tape hiss, unless the recording level was jacked up at which case the tape oxide compressed the dynamics.

Interestingly, the entire recording equipment came to under $500 in the mid 1970's.

 

 

Nice one! Yes, it requires everything to be in place - I don't have any sort of recording background, so I am reliant on normally available recordings - which is fine, IME. As you say, the technology decades ago was capable - but you can't just plug a few components together and expect it to happen - by far the most important ingredient is an ability to finesse the setup until it is sufficiently "bug-free".

 

Voice and piano are ideal test material - we all can recognise the qualities of a person vocalising, and pianos are everywhere, the sound of them in the flesh is familiar to most. Which means we are acutely attuned to any sort of giveaway that the sound is being faked.

 

The hardest test is the directly in front of the speakers one, with or without curtain - there is no place to hide for any sort of anomaly sneeking through. For the piano, transient impact is usually the undoing - can a crashing chord be reproduced with the necessary fidelity? Usually not, the 'dynamics' capability of the rig is way under par - and it's all a bit embarassing to listen to, really ...


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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And the silliness about DBT, etc, continues - it's all pretty simple, in my book: can the the rig fake, say, a piano in the way I've just related? If it can't, then the reproduction is faulty - and so then comparing it it to another faulty system is an exercise in futility.


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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26 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

As predicted, can't come up with the goods when challenged.

 

Btw Ralph, since others have brought up the subject  what are your qualifications?

 

I'm a scientist.

 

and please quit lying like your 1st sentence


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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6 minutes ago, fas42 said:

And the silliness about DBT, etc, continues - it's all pretty simple, in my book: can the the rig fake, say, a piano in the way I've just related? If it can't, then the reproduction is faulty - and so then comparing it it to another faulty system is an exercise in futility.

 

 

Do you think any system can fake a piano perfectly?

 

And, for those who cannot or will not pay for such a system, is it still possible for them to get a low fault system?

 

You seem to be equating near perfect and horrible


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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2 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

Do you think any system can fake a piano perfectly?

 

And, for those who cannot or will not pay for such a system, is it still possible for them to get a low fault system?

 

You seem to be equating near perfect and horrible

 

Any system of reasonable quality, that has sufficient headroom with regard to the amplifier combined the particular speakers - you can't combine a SET with ribbons, say, and expect the SPLs to happen - has the potential. As said earlier, the very lowest bass notes would be more difficult to perfectly mimic - but for 99.99% of recorded piano works there wouldn't be a problem.

 

At the moment, it is almost impossible to buy a combo that is good enough in raw form to get such a result - how to transition to it being more common I'm not sure. I suspect it will be a learning process; people will need to understand what areas to focus on, to get the job done. For myself, I have a background such that I've been happy to hack cheap gear to get what I'm after - expensive, bling components being fiddled with would make all concerned nervous, including myself!

 

Not quite sure what you mean by "equating near perfect and horrible" ... if a system can produce the necessary SPLs, but it sounds very sharp and unpleasant to the ears doing this then the signs are good; something that is terribly, terribly polite while playing everything is going to be far harder to "fix".


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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1 hour ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

The area of perception however is within my area of expertise, qualifications and training. I also do have training in statistics and research methodology, although I do not claim to be expert.

 

Then perhaps you can educate us as to the proper way to conduct objective testing of audio components, since you  must know what tricks perception can play on reality.

 

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