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Will Ethernet powerline adapter pollute the AC main for audio playback quality?


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I have a quite odd situation in my house for setting up the network for the audio system and thinking about the powerline adapter, but I have no idea whether this will interfere any audio playback quality. 

 

In general, my plan is something like this: 

 

Study room on 2nd floor: a PC with strong horsepower for HQplayer DSP. (BTW, I'm still waiting for intel i9 7980XE) 

Audio room on 1st floor:  my main audio playback system with NAA receiving the DSD512 data from the PC in study room upstairs ( through local home Ethernet network)

 

Now the odd thing is  :

 

My audio room has Ethernet socket installed via CAT6A cables through the wall from the Modem located in the garage. So there is no problem for me to get network access in the audio room.

 

Due to some mistake happened during internet installation by the engineer. My study room does NOT have Ethernet access at all. However, the bedroom next to the study room has been installed with Ethernet access via the same route as my audio room (i.e. from the very start point of modem)

 

Therefore, I'm thinking about adding a pair of powerline adapter (TP-LINK AV2000 with 2G bandwidth) between the bedroom and study room on the 2nd floor so as to give the study room Ethernet access for audio playback networking. 

 

My question is : will the powerline adapter installed upstairs pollute the AC main and interfere the audio playback quality in the audio room on the 1st floor? 

 

I've drawn a simple picture to show what I mean and it might be better understood as well. 

59e76b4972250_powerlineadapter.thumb.jpg.522c5aa16fa9eebe9d48d2cf2a0b12b4.jpg

 

 

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

Software: Roon, Tidal, HQplayer 

HQplayer PC: i9 7980XE, Titan Xp; i9 9900K, Titan V

DAC: Holo Audio MAY L2, T+A DAC8 DSD, exasound e12, iFi micro iDSD BL

USB tweaks: Intona, Uptone (ISO) regen, LPS-1, LPS-1.2, Sbooster Vbus2, Curious cables, SUPRA Certified HiSpeed USB cable

NAA: Logic CL100, Uptone JS-2

AMP: Spectral DMC 30SV, Spectral DMA 300RS

Speaker: Magico S3 MKII

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I'm running Powerline ethernet to my CAPS V4 Pipeline server (music stored on NAS in my study) and I am extremely pleased with the sound I am getting from it. I think POE is a wonderful technology.

CAPS Pipeline with HDPlex Linear PSU running Win10 64 bit, AO 2.0, RoonServer, HQPlayer -> T+A DAC8 DSD -> Linear Tube Audio's MicroZOTL2 Headphone Amp with Mojo Audio's Illuminati Linear PSU -> Focal Utopia/Audeze LCD-3

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Powerline adapters use multiple carriers at frequencies between 2-30Mhz, which is the entire HF radio band. So yes, they may cause Electro Magnetic Interference (EMI) and also affect short wave radio reception. Therefore Powerline units must have built in EMI suppression, though how effective this is depends on the units and the house wiring. So, try it, and if you hear buzzing sounds, try adding an EMI filter as wgscott suggested.

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I don't have direct experience with how Ethernet over AC lines will impact computer audio, but I have a friend who was using that technology in his system to connect his Bluray player to his home network.  He was experiencing noise problems in his analog playback, and we eventually found that disconnecting the Ethernet from power eliminated the noise.  His setup is all very high end equipment (I believe at that point he was using a Pass Labs Xono), so I wouldn't attribute the noise to poorly engineered equipment.  

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It is adding EMC to your power-lines... Its bad, in the UK it gets an exemption from EMC requirements because it is basically noise added to the powerline's so it will never pass EMC testing.

 

Some background reading.

http://www.compliance-club.com/default.aspx?id=17

 

 

POE is power over Ethernet, powerline communications is what is being discussed, slight difference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_over_Ethernet

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The original post sure sounds like running ethernet over AC power lines to me, and I agree Audiophiles should avoid it.  Even if it's possible to "filter it out later" I'd rather not have garbage there in the first place.  Yes, POE is something else, and it's normally low power contained in a given line to power something like a security camera; it should not be troublesome from an audio point of view.

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3 hours ago, marce said:

It is adding EMC to your power-lines... Its bad, in the UK it gets an exemption from EMC requirements because it is basically noise added to the powerline's so it will never pass EMC testing.

 

Some background reading.

http://www.compliance-club.com/default.aspx?id=17

 

 

POE is power over Ethernet, powerline communications is what is being discussed, slight difference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_over_Ethernet

Thanks for the link. Very useful.

 

I do find when using ethernet connection direct from the powerline adapter port, the sound gets deteriorated (quite fatigue sounding).  Then adding a Ethernet switch after the powerline adapter makes the sound better. 

 

Today just found out some noise when turn my tube amplifier to the maximum. I will try to disconnect the powerline adapter and report the problem back.

Software: Roon, Tidal, HQplayer 

HQplayer PC: i9 7980XE, Titan Xp; i9 9900K, Titan V

DAC: Holo Audio MAY L2, T+A DAC8 DSD, exasound e12, iFi micro iDSD BL

USB tweaks: Intona, Uptone (ISO) regen, LPS-1, LPS-1.2, Sbooster Vbus2, Curious cables, SUPRA Certified HiSpeed USB cable

NAA: Logic CL100, Uptone JS-2

AMP: Spectral DMC 30SV, Spectral DMA 300RS

Speaker: Magico S3 MKII

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can you connect the two locations via coax?  if so, then i'd consider ethernet over coax (moca).  in my experience, it's faster than powerline adapters and very reliable.

sources:  intel nuc8i7 (audiolinux, roon core) (server) | simaudio moon mind 2 (renderer)
headphone rig:  chord qutest > bryston bha-1 > audeze lcd-3
main rig:  chord dave > parasound jc5 > kef reference 1
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My bad....I used the acronym POE when I actually met Powerline Ethernet (sigh). Sorry for the confusion.

 

In any case, I'm using Powerline Ethernet in my setup and I notice no sound degradation at all. For me, it was a very good solution.

CAPS Pipeline with HDPlex Linear PSU running Win10 64 bit, AO 2.0, RoonServer, HQPlayer -> T+A DAC8 DSD -> Linear Tube Audio's MicroZOTL2 Headphone Amp with Mojo Audio's Illuminati Linear PSU -> Focal Utopia/Audeze LCD-3

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1 hour ago, jcn3 said:

can you connect the two locations via coax?  if so, then i'd consider ethernet over coax (moca).  in my experience, it's faster than powerline adapters and very reliable.

Thanks for the tips. But I'm trying my best to avoid any visible cable wiring in the house (One of my main reasons to use powerline adapters, I've already complained to the engineer for his mistake for forgetting wire a Ethernet channel to that room ¬¬).

 

If it's the powerline adapter that cause the noise problem in the system, then I will have to try something else. 

Software: Roon, Tidal, HQplayer 

HQplayer PC: i9 7980XE, Titan Xp; i9 9900K, Titan V

DAC: Holo Audio MAY L2, T+A DAC8 DSD, exasound e12, iFi micro iDSD BL

USB tweaks: Intona, Uptone (ISO) regen, LPS-1, LPS-1.2, Sbooster Vbus2, Curious cables, SUPRA Certified HiSpeed USB cable

NAA: Logic CL100, Uptone JS-2

AMP: Spectral DMC 30SV, Spectral DMA 300RS

Speaker: Magico S3 MKII

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2 minutes ago, louisxiawei said:

Thanks for the tips. But I'm trying my best to avoid any visible cable wiring in the house (One of my main reasons to use powerline adapters, I've already complained to the engineer for his mistake for forgetting wire a Ethernet channel to that room ¬¬).

 

If it's the powerline adapter that cause the noise problem in the system, then I will have to try something else. 

yes, powerline adapters do have more flexibility in placement.  moca adapters eliminate your concern about cross-line pollution, though (and are faster :-))

sources:  intel nuc8i7 (audiolinux, roon core) (server) | simaudio moon mind 2 (renderer)
headphone rig:  chord qutest > bryston bha-1 > audeze lcd-3
main rig:  chord dave > parasound jc5 > kef reference 1
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20 minutes ago, EdmontonCanuck said:

My bad....I used the acronym POE when I actually met Powerline Ethernet (sigh). Sorry for the confusion.

 

In any case, I'm using Powerline Ethernet in my setup and I notice no sound degradation at all. For me, it was a very good solution.

Thanks for the confirmation.

 

Maybe my tube amplifier is just sensitive to the interference. My tube amplifier can even pick up some annoying noise interference from phone frequencies during an incoming call or text message.

 

The audio room has its own dedicated AC powerline, and the ethernet port in the audio room is not from the port of the adapter. Just really hope it is the powerline adapters causing the noisy issue.

 

 

Software: Roon, Tidal, HQplayer 

HQplayer PC: i9 7980XE, Titan Xp; i9 9900K, Titan V

DAC: Holo Audio MAY L2, T+A DAC8 DSD, exasound e12, iFi micro iDSD BL

USB tweaks: Intona, Uptone (ISO) regen, LPS-1, LPS-1.2, Sbooster Vbus2, Curious cables, SUPRA Certified HiSpeed USB cable

NAA: Logic CL100, Uptone JS-2

AMP: Spectral DMC 30SV, Spectral DMA 300RS

Speaker: Magico S3 MKII

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Sorry, I have added to the problem

POE is Power over Ethernet

Ethernet over Power is type of the opposite.

I have used both , and currently am using Ethernet over Power. I dont have any problems. I do need to add that apart from my poweramps all my equipment is connected to "Audiophile" powerboards, conditioners, etc.

As said before there are documented issues with the technologies where ethernet and power is on the same cable. As far as I understand MOCA is a lot better in this regard and I was seriously considering it as I have coax everywhere.

My latest Powerline adaptors cost me AU$40 and works very well. So I am sticking to that.

Sonore actually recommend the Powerline solution. You dont need the latest 2G stuff for Audio 500Mbps is fine (I use 200 and 500Mbps adaptors). Lots of them for cheap on the internet. If it does not work it is a cheap experiment.

 

If there is noise coming through - try to use a powerboard which filters EMI etc - look at Furman for example.  

 

Noise could also be the result of SMPS power supplies.

 

Have you checked the noise on your amp? With and without Powerline stuff? 

 

 

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12 hours ago, jventer said:

Sorry, I have added to the problem

POE is Power over Ethernet

Ethernet over Power is type of the opposite.

I have used both , and currently am using Ethernet over Power. I dont have any problems. I do need to add that apart from my poweramps all my equipment is connected to "Audiophile" powerboards, conditioners, etc.

As said before there are documented issues with the technologies where ethernet and power is on the same cable. As far as I understand MOCA is a lot better in this regard and I was seriously considering it as I have coax everywhere.

My latest Powerline adaptors cost me AU$40 and works very well. So I am sticking to that.

Sonore actually recommend the Powerline solution. You dont need the latest 2G stuff for Audio 500Mbps is fine (I use 200 and 500Mbps adaptors). Lots of them for cheap on the internet. If it does not work it is a cheap experiment.

 

If there is noise coming through - try to use a powerboard which filters EMI etc - look at Furman for example.  

 

Noise could also be the result of SMPS power supplies.

 

Have you checked the noise on your amp? With and without Powerline stuff? 

 

 

Thanks for the comment. Just find out a few things.

 

If I put PLC into the same AC wall socket along with my other audio equipments, turning the amplifier into the maximum will expose the noise, remove the PLC, noise disappeared.

 

Also, if plug the PLC into another AC wall socket which is away from my audio room, the noise cannot be detected. 

 

So I think if plug PLC into the AC main of the audio system can somehow cause the noise, the best thing to avoid it is to keep the PLC away from the audio AC main. Or to use a high quality audiophile powerbar with good filtering approach. 

 

Fortunately, my audio room has its own Ethernet wired through the wall from the switch. I think I will pair the PLC upstairs to bridge the network connection between study room and my bedroom so that study room can be part of the network and transmit data to the audio room downstairs. 

 

Also thanks for mentioning the Sonore's opinion. Good to know. I personally agree to their comment regarding wireless transmission is a bad idea for audio playback and try to avoid it. 

 

 

Software: Roon, Tidal, HQplayer 

HQplayer PC: i9 7980XE, Titan Xp; i9 9900K, Titan V

DAC: Holo Audio MAY L2, T+A DAC8 DSD, exasound e12, iFi micro iDSD BL

USB tweaks: Intona, Uptone (ISO) regen, LPS-1, LPS-1.2, Sbooster Vbus2, Curious cables, SUPRA Certified HiSpeed USB cable

NAA: Logic CL100, Uptone JS-2

AMP: Spectral DMC 30SV, Spectral DMA 300RS

Speaker: Magico S3 MKII

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 18/10/2017 at 3:52 PM, louisxiawei said:

Study room on 2nd floor: a PC with strong horsepower for HQplayer DSP. (BTW, I'm still waiting for intel i9 7980XE) 

Audio room on 1st floor:  my main audio playback system with NAA receiving the DSD512 data from the PC in study room upstairs ( through local home Ethernet network)

Any help would be appreciated.

 

 

I decided against Ethernet over power line for the reasons quoted in this thread. Instead I installed a wireless bridge. Initially I was worried about dropouts given the number of negative comments I read on various fora. While I had a few hiccups at the start, once sorted this wireless ethernet bridge has worked superbly, with no sign of dropouts. I stream music from a remote NAS, mainly CD quality with a small quantity of higher-res music. I use 2 of the newest airport extremes to form the bridge.

David

ALAC iTunes library on Synology DS412+ running MinimServer with Samsung Galaxy Tab S2 tablet running BubbleUPnP for control >

Hi-Fi 1: Airport Extreme bridge > Netgear switch > TP-Link optical isolation > dCS Network Bridge AND PS Audio PerfectWave Transport > PS Audio DirectStream DAC with Bridge Mk.II > Primare A60 > Harbeth SHL5plus Anniversary Edition .

Hi-Fi 2: Sonore Rendu > Chord Hugo DAC/preamp > LFD integrated > Harbeth P3ESRs and > Sennheiser HD800

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3 hours ago, DavidL said:

 

I decided against Ethernet over power line for the reasons quoted in this thread. Instead I installed a wireless bridge. Initially I was worried about dropouts given the number of negative comments I read on various fora. While I had a few hiccups at the start, once sorted this wireless ethernet bridge has worked superbly, with no sign of dropouts. I stream music from a remote NAS, mainly CD quality with a small quantity of higher-res music. I use 2 of the newest airport extremes to form the bridge.

David

I think you made the correct decision. I might follow the wireless bridge as well. At the beginning, I'm worried about RFI from the wireless will be bad for audio equipment. But I'm going to put a wireless router in my audio room anyway to do the headless control for Roon, NAA and HQplayer PC. Sometimes there is no perfect solution at all.

 

Is airport extremes good? I'm considering buying multiple Netgear orbi in the house. 

 

Software: Roon, Tidal, HQplayer 

HQplayer PC: i9 7980XE, Titan Xp; i9 9900K, Titan V

DAC: Holo Audio MAY L2, T+A DAC8 DSD, exasound e12, iFi micro iDSD BL

USB tweaks: Intona, Uptone (ISO) regen, LPS-1, LPS-1.2, Sbooster Vbus2, Curious cables, SUPRA Certified HiSpeed USB cable

NAA: Logic CL100, Uptone JS-2

AMP: Spectral DMC 30SV, Spectral DMA 300RS

Speaker: Magico S3 MKII

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