Spacehound Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 8 minutes ago, Spacehound said: Sorry, double post. Link to comment
motberg Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 2 hours ago, plissken said: Read the "The Antenna Myth" by Siemons. CAT6 UTP is basically noise immune up to 30 MEGA hertz. It's CMNR and there are transformer couplings at both the switch and the NIC card. Plus I put a $233 per foot Nordost Heimdall II (3 footer) up against $0.30 a foot CAT5e (315 foot) threw that under a running microwave and then proceeded to capture the output into an ADC, post it here at CA and no one could tell when the cables were swapped. OK.. I took a look at the Siemons article.. so what you are promoting is that although there is some antenna effect, it is not audible ? Link to comment
motberg Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 55 minutes ago, Spacehound said: What is more, these 'network players' and servers are grossly overpriced, and limited. (You have to wait until the manufacturer decides to support some new streaming service, for example. Mine, purchased in a foolish moment, doesn't even support Tidal yet.) Also there is no way whatsoever that they can 'sound' better than a regular PC or a Mac. And further, these various audio software 'optimisers' that claim to cut down the 'overhead' are a total nonsense as audio is extremely trivial for even a low powered home computer. Do you think this is true for serving via USB, or only via Ethernet ? I think most the hardware and software optimizer stuff I have encountered is more relating to USB.. I am only starting on Ethernet with the standard SMS200, but there are options for advanced clocking available, as well as power supplies. Software changes when using a USB path is obvious in my system, and I have seen posts relating to Rednet use that imply software tweaking at the source is audible, although seems to me not as profound as the USB path. Link to comment
Popular Post Spacehound Posted February 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted February 2, 2018 51 minutes ago, motberg said: Do you think this is true for serving via USB, or only via Ethernet ? I think most the hardware and software optimizer stuff I have encountered is more relating to USB.. I am only starting on Ethernet with the standard SMS200, but there are options for advanced clocking available, as well as power supplies. Software changes when using a USB path is obvious in my system, and I have seen posts relating to Rednet use that imply software tweaking at the source is audible, although seems to me not as profound as the USB path. Quite frankly I don't hear the slightest difference between Ethernet and USB, and my equipment is quite good, though I'm not going to brag about what it is. It's easy to say, I know, but I genuinely think most of these 'differences' are expectation biases, particularly when we have put time, and maybe money, into them. And for the same reason, if tried , they are always said to be an 'improvement', which makes me even more suspicious. And I have tried some of these things, it's very easy to convince yourself they are 'better'. Humans don't like doing things and finding out their efforts were futile. I was in the computer business for a very long time, and some of the 'USB' things talked about and sold are utterly nonsensical. Such as USB regenerators and reclockers. Or 'jitter reducing' processes. 'Jitter' on USB and any other 'timing' is controlled entirely by the DAC clock and nothing else. And 'noise' is not transferred by the bits (though there are other causes of noise) as bits aren't 'put into buffers', they are read, and NEW bits are generated in the buffers by the buffers, so the 'quality' of the original bits received simply don't matter. Etc. Etc Etc. It's very easy to be stuck in an 'analog' paradigm and many people are. 'Digital' is completely different. Don Hills, rayooo, mansr and 1 other 4 Link to comment
adamdea Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 3 hours ago, Spacehound said: It's easy to say, I know, but I genuinely think most of these 'differences' are expectation biases, particularly when we have put time, and maybe money, into them. And for the same reason, if tried , they are always said to be an 'improvement', which makes me even more suspicious. And I have tried some of these things, it's very easy to convince yourself they are 'better'. Humans don't like doing things and finding out their efforts were futile. .... It's very easy to be stuck in an 'analog' paradigm and many people are. 'Digital' is completely different. An interesting reality check #1 is to go back to what was supposed to be wrong with S/PDIF in the first place ie "jitter". But by the time the Benchmark dac1 had been invented jitter was demonstrably not a problem even with cables 200ft long. or with a coat hanger as a cable. And there was no reason why it should be. After all the sample rate of the file is not a secret. There never was any reason why the data transmission rate (or any jitter in it) had to affect the conversion clock. Electrical noise Toslink. But that causes jitter. See above. So if we have a toslink interface and a buffer or asrc which enables us to transmit the J test signal with pretty much zero artefacts. Then what effect does the transport have? But it still sounds different to me. Yes that's because you are a human being. But my hobby is buying new bits of electrical kit and enjoying the fact that having makes me listen to my music with renewed interest. Proceed as before. Can I have some stuff that sounds like science to go with that? You are not a sound quality measurement device Link to comment
Popular Post adamdea Posted February 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted February 2, 2018 4 hours ago, Spacehound said: 'Digital' is completely different. Reality check#2 While we are on that subject. No one in the hifi press or the industry ever wants to discuss what digital is all about namely that, once digitised, the information content of a signal can be transmitted without any loss whatsoever. It's enormous. And even spdif can accomplish this task easily. So easily that no one even bothers testing it most of the time. But you can with an mdac (using its handy test facility) or using the old dts passthrough test. Now really, the weird thing is that everyone is told to recite some crap about jitter (usually with no verification whatsoever) without pausing to consider the enormity of that the entire information content has been successfully transmitted. Now consider that any wire/transport/noise effect is entirely beside the fact that there is nothing which the receiving device needs to decode this information which it does not have (and that includes the requisite conversion clock rate, which is known). Now it isn't actually impossible that somehow the way the information was transmitted might to some extent affect the output. But shouldn't we have a sense of proportion? If you are hearing more bass, well isn't that a little surprising. There really really really isn't more bass in the signal. Is it possible that the effect is down to something else other than the electrical signal itself? As a thought experiment imagine a book club discussing Joyce's Ulysses. One member X says that he wasn't able to get going because he just couldn't find an edition with a suitably high quality type face. Whatever typeface he tried, it just interfere with his concentration so much that the meaning was concealed, or it was just too painful to go on. Next month, when they have moved on to Moby Dick, X announces that he has bought a $10k super-kindle. He is now working his way though Ulysses and has discovered that what previously seemed like a jumble of words, many of which were in poor taste, has begun to take on a deeper allegorical form, with some of the stranger sections now being clearly revealed as representing fractured inner monologues, and others as bold stylistic experiments. Unfortunately Moby Dick is not available in a format which this super-kindle can read. He suggests that the others forget their penguin classics, whose yellowy pages and smudgy print conceal the depth of the writing, buy a super kindle and start reading Ulysses again. They object that the typeface cannot possibly affect the experience of reading the book, provided it is reasonably legible to conventional standards in ordinary typeface. X defends himself by referring to a number of articles which demonstrate that it is indeed possible. X is vindicated and shares with the other members of the group his belief that he as a highly trained reader is more sensitive to visual nuance than the other members of the group. He hyothesises that if the other members of the group had better reading glasses then like him they would appreciate the importance of the super kindle Next month the manufacturers of the super kindle bring out a screen upgrade..... plissken, marce, Nikhil and 4 others 7 You are not a sound quality measurement device Link to comment
Don Hills Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 7 hours ago, vmartell22 said: ... there is nothing wrong with any individual hearing a difference. However (and I repeat): It cannot be accepted as evidence that there is a difference. 5 hours ago, Spacehound said: Quite frankly I don't hear the slightest difference between Ethernet and USB ... It cannot be accepted as evidence that there is no difference. The Computer Audiophile 1 "People hear what they see." - Doris Day The forum would be a much better place if everyone were less convinced of how right they were. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 7 hours ago, vmartell22 said: I posted this over at part-time audiophile in the discussion of a Nordost ethernet cable review: I repeat - there is nothing wrong with any individual hearing a difference. However (and I repeat): It cannot be accepted as evidence that there is a difference. v That’s a very reasonable and kindly worded post. If only everyone presenting facts or opinions took the same route :~) Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Spacehound Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 29 minutes ago, Don Hills said: It cannot be accepted as evidence that there is no difference. True. Simply because it is impossible to prove a negative. And you can't even find 'evidence' for non-existence either Cables: I recently saw a 'report' in a well-known US hifi magazine on a short USB cable costing 10,000 dollars! And it isn't even USB certified, which certification most DACs are designed to work with. It wasn't a Nordhost but if Chris thinks I'm (or most other reasonably sane people) are going to look on such stuff "kindly" he's got far too much faith in his fellow human beings Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted February 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted February 2, 2018 32 minutes ago, adamdea said: While we are on that subject. No one in the hifi press or the industry ever wants to discuss what digital is all about namely that, once digitised, the information content of a signal can be transmitted without any loss whatsoever. It's enormous. And even spdif can accomplish this task easily. So easily that no one even bothers testing it most of the time. But you can with an mdac (sung a handy test facility) or suing the old dts passthrough test. Now really, the weird thing is that everyone is told to recite some crap about jitter (usually with no verification whatsoever) without pausing to consider the enormity of that the entire information content has been successfully transmitted. Now consider that any wire/transport/noise effect is entirely beside the fact that there is nothing which the receiving device needs to decode this information which it does not have (and that includes the requisite conversion clock rate, which is known). S/PDIF does require that the receiver somehow synchronises its clock with the sender. The standard simple solution is a PLL, which necessarily passes through jitter below its cut-off frequency, and even if the source is perfect, the PLL output will never be as stable as a good crystal oscillator. Adaptive interfaces like USB obviously have no such issues since they place the master clock at the DAC, where it belongs. It is still conceivable, however, that some kind of noise is carried by the data cable makes its way into the DAC output. In fact, this can be readily demonstrated in a deliberately pathological setup. 13 minutes ago, adamdea said: Now it isn't actually impossible that somehow the way the information was transmitted might to some extent affect the output. But shouldn't we have a sense of proportion? If you are hearing more bass, well isn't that a little surprising. There really really really isn't more bass in the signal. Is it possible that the effect is down to something else other than the electrical signal itself? Yes, this is where it gets ridiculous. I can't fathom any mechanism by which random noise could affect the sound in such specific ways. tmtomh, semente and sarvsa 3 Link to comment
Spacehound Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 4 minutes ago, Spacehound said: Sorry, double post (again) Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, Spacehound said: It wasn't a Nordhost but if Chris thinks I'm (or most other reasonably sane people) are going to look on such stuff "kindly" he's got far too much faith in his fellow human beings No need to personally look on such stuff kindly, only a request that comments are reasonable and kind towards others. I’m all for people loving or hating things and expressing opinions. semente 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Spacehound Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 7 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: No need to personally look on such stuff kindly, only a request that comments are reasonable and kind towards others. I’m all for people loving or hating things and expressing opinions. I think I am reasonable kind about people. But I don't have to be kind about short lengths of 'domestic' wire costing 10,000 dollars - I don't think 'They' even spend that much taxpayers money on short lengths wire for the F-35!!! Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 7 minutes ago, Spacehound said: I think I am reasonable kind about people. But I don't have to be kind about short lengths of 'domestic' wire costing 10,000 dollars - I don't think 'They' even spend that much taxpayers money on short lengths wire for the F-35!!! I’m certainly not defending it, but if there was a gov customer willing to pay that much for an F35 cable, there’d be a company willing to sell it at that price. Doesn’t make it right, wrong, or indifferent. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
rando Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 It very well does make it your gently placed middle option in a large number of countries. Going to stop replying to you this morning. Be better and happier along with it. Link to comment
plissken Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 8 hours ago, Spacehound said: And further, these various audio software 'optimisers' that claim to cut down the 'overhead' are a total nonsense as audio is extremely trivial for even a low powered home computer. I run JRiver 23, Tidal, and Duet Display (thank you Chris for drawing my attention to it) and CPU usage has never exceeded 6% and that only when changing tracks. Funny you mention that. I took a fresh Windows 10 install and stripped it down of un-needed services. I then went into perf-mon and turned on all the different cache counters/tracing. Even with a system dragging along at maybe 1% CPU usage you could see all the system I/O still going on as cache, paging, irq processes. I posted a screen shot in another thread here and it was 'Silence of the Subjectivists'. rando 1 Link to comment
plissken Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 7 hours ago, motberg said: OK.. I took a look at the Siemons article.. so what you are promoting is that although there is some antenna effect, it is not audible ? You didn't read the article obviously. Link to comment
adamdea Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 23 minutes ago, mansr said: S/PDIF does require that the receiver somehow synchronises its clock with the sender. The standard simple solution is a PLL, which necessarily passes through jitter below its cut-off frequency, and even if the source is perfect, the PLL output will never be as stable as a good crystal oscillator. Yes this was an exciting discovery because it opened out the possibility of solving this problem. Then they did and it changed nothing. You are not a sound quality measurement device Link to comment
Spacehound Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 6 hours ago, motberg said: Do you think this is true for serving via USB, or only via Ethernet ? I think most the hardware and software optimizer stuff I have encountered is more relating to USB.. I am only starting on Ethernet with the standard SMS200, but there are options for advanced clocking available, as well as power supplies. Software changes when using a USB path is obvious in my system, and I have seen posts relating to Rednet use that imply software tweaking at the source is audible, although seems to me not as profound as the USB path. I don't know, I've only tested a few things and except for streaming, when AFAIK there is no alternative from the service providers router to your box I rarely use local ethernet for data transmission of what eventually will become sound. And with some software players including JRiver (which I use) you can detach the Ethernet cable completely and the music will continue until the music has ended, even if it is more than an hour long, so Ethernet is out of the picture and it's going from computer RAM (16 Gb in my case) via USB to the DAC. Even the computers disks are usually stopped. Software 'optimizers' work on shutting down non-relevant parts of the operating system, but as the total load including any music player software rarely exceeds single digit percent CPU load without such 'optimisation' I don't think it can achieve much. Personally I don't know what a 'network player' does with ethernet data (as my only 'professional' dealings with ethernet was as a 'cable layer' at weekends for extra pay ). But my 'network player' is a regular USB DAC too so I can listen either way with a flick of the input selector switch and a matching JRiver 'zone' change. As I said earlier, I don't hear any difference no matter how much I fiddle about. As I am sure you know, 'digital' either works or it doesn't. Unlike 'analog' there is no gradual degradation as the signal gets worse. And noise is not carried over from one part of the process to the next, any noise is 'new' noise at each stage, though there can always be noise pickup from the external surroundings and on ground leads. In my case it is always totally inaudible even at full volume, and even in the worst case which is JRiver playing 'silence' (thus placing a load on the computer as 'silence' still consists of bits to process) and my ear against the speaker. I have a feeling we 'tweak' simply because in the days of 'analog', particularly with a vinyl turntable, you could tweak endlessly, often having an effect, and we miss that pleasure Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 1 hour ago, plissken said: Funny you mention that. I took a fresh Windows 10 install and stripped it down of un-needed services. I then went into perf-mon and turned on all the different cache counters/tracing. Even with a system dragging along at maybe 1% CPU usage you could see all the system I/O still going on as cache, paging, irq processes. I posted a screen shot in another thread here and it was 'Silence of the Subjectivists'. Got that link? I missed it. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
plissken Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 10 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Got that link? I missed it. I will try and find it... Link to comment
plissken Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Here you go. Rather easy with the forum software as it gives you a chronological list of items that have been attached to threads! Nice. The Computer Audiophile 1 Link to comment
motberg Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 8 hours ago, plissken said: You didn't read the article obviously. third sentence The fact is that both screens and shields and the copper balanced twisted-pairs in a UTP cable will behave as an antenna to some degree. Link to comment
plissken Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 12 minutes ago, motberg said: third sentence The fact is that both screens and shields and the copper balanced twisted-pairs in a UTP cable will behave as an antenna to some degree. You need to read the article in full and then gain appreciation for that 3rd sentence and the context it is written in. "The good news is that the balance performance of the cable itself is sufficient up to 30 MHz to ensure minimum susceptibility to disturbance from these noise sources regardless of the presence of an overall screen/shield" Anyways I'm a huge proponent of wireless. Link to comment
motberg Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 8 minutes ago, plissken said: You didn't read where it's immune to about 30MHz.... to me "minimum susceptibility" is not the equivalent of "immune" but if that is how you read it then OK..... Link to comment
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