Paul R Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 No problem. You can see join dates at the top of each posting, as well as the posting date and the total number of comments the poster has left on the system. -Paul Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
kaka Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 kaka, you've mentioned RWA stock USB cable. have you compared it to Wireworld/Audioquest USB cables? No, I'm not sure if Wireworld/Audioquest were in the USB market at that time. My mid-range Wireworld HDMIs are very good for sound, so it is a brand I would check out if I were starting over. Source: Pink Faun Ultra - Chord DAVE Amps: VTV Purifi Speakers: Trenner and Friedel RA Cables : JCAT reference USB, Tellerium XLR, Kubula-Sosna Elation speaker Plus CEC TL 5 Cd transport - Blackcat Tron BNC - Chord DAVE Link to comment
Artmindes Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Thanks for the info! Anybody compared Wireworld Starlight or Ultraviolet to other cheaper or more expensive USB cables? How do they perform soundwise? Link to comment
pilgrum Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I wouldn't go higher. I did but just for looks and reliability. There is no way a higher quality usb cable will make things sound better if its being used as a data transfer cable unless it was somehow rfi related. http://www.locus-design.com/index.php/cynosure-usb-cable Win7pro64>JRiver17>ESI JULI@PCIE>Custom AQ DCoax>AdcomGDA700Mod >GTP450ModAUDIO>AudioquestYIQ3>AdcomGFA5500Mod>12gRomex/MC M1.2s/AQ DB14.2>KEF Q Towers>KEF Reference SBox>ESS AMT1C Mod Link to comment
Jud Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 ...electrical noise, particularly since power's in the same cable with signal and ground. In fact, virtually everything that affects the sound of analog interconnects, other than frequency response, should also affect the sound of digital cables. How much difference would you expect in frequency response between two reasonably well made shortish analog interconnects? So to the extent you hear differences among analog interconnects, there may well be differences of nearly the same extent among digital cables. The differences may or may not be worth more than $60, depending on you and your system. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
pilgrum Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 there is no analog sound just data. you could theoretically tranfer rfi or ground noise to the equipment but unlikely. The only thing i have seen quality in computer networking make a difference was reliability. You can't make it faster past its protocol you can't make it improve the data it just transfers at the rate requested by the equipment. If you are worried about quality use Dcoax RCA or a EAS3/EBU connection alot of times usb is the bottle necked connection or shares the same specs as the POF connection. Win7pro64>JRiver17>ESI JULI@PCIE>Custom AQ DCoax>AdcomGDA700Mod >GTP450ModAUDIO>AudioquestYIQ3>AdcomGFA5500Mod>12gRomex/MC M1.2s/AQ DB14.2>KEF Q Towers>KEF Reference SBox>ESS AMT1C Mod Link to comment
Jud Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 there is no analog sound just data Just happy little 1s and 0s marching down the cable, no electrons subject to any of that nasty electrical stuff, oh no.... you could theoretically tranfer rfi or ground noise to the equipment but unlikely I'm sure electrical noise will stay well away from the system's ground plane as long as you judge it unlikely. This has been done to death elsewhere on this site and on the Web, so I won't take it further here. If you'd like to have some version of the last word, have at it. But you might like to do some further research. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
4est Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I see my 1s and 0s happily marching down the lines. Just brings tears to my eyes from pride and joy! Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
Julf Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Remember the Monty Python sketch? NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! In fact, virtually everything that affects the sound of analog interconnects, should also affect the sound of digital cables. In fact, virtually everything that affects the sound of analog interconnects, other than frequency response, should also affect the sound of digital cables. In fact, virtually everything that affects the sound of analog interconnects, other than frequency response, and harmonic distortion, should also affect the sound of digital cables. In fact, virtually everything that affects the sound of analog interconnects, other than frequency response, and harmonic distortion, and triboelectric effects, should also affect the sound of digital cables. In fact... I'll come in again. Link to comment
pilgrum Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 you are correct sorry. Everyone I have an announcement to make! go out and buy a $150+ AudioQuest cable plug it in and notice an immediate upgrade in the audio quality. It will boggle you mind how much of an improvement the HIFI grade USB digital data transfer cable will make on your system. If you have never experienced a $150+ usb cable then you have never heard HIFI music properly. After some research I realized that usb technology is extremely susceptible to EMI/RFI/ environmental noise and things like kids playing with scissors and paranormal energy so i retract what i mentioned earlier about it not mattering really it is imperative you blow at least $150 on a usb cable. Anyone with graph based results showing the improvement please post them I would but unfortunately my DAC is not USB just AES/RC-5720/RCA sorry. I am really surprised none of the high usb cable manufactures have done this? Can't find anything on google? IMHO if your willing to throw more than $30 at a usb cable take that money an add it to your dac budget. Win7pro64>JRiver17>ESI JULI@PCIE>Custom AQ DCoax>AdcomGDA700Mod >GTP450ModAUDIO>AudioquestYIQ3>AdcomGFA5500Mod>12gRomex/MC M1.2s/AQ DB14.2>KEF Q Towers>KEF Reference SBox>ESS AMT1C Mod Link to comment
Julf Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Just realized my interconnects don't have enough paranormal shielding! Link to comment
pilgrum Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 (212)555-2368 ask for Dr. Peter Venkman Ø Win7pro64>JRiver17>ESI JULI@PCIE>Custom AQ DCoax>AdcomGDA700Mod >GTP450ModAUDIO>AudioquestYIQ3>AdcomGFA5500Mod>12gRomex/MC M1.2s/AQ DB14.2>KEF Q Towers>KEF Reference SBox>ESS AMT1C Mod Link to comment
Julf Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 As long as I don't have to listen to Ray Parker, Jr. again... Link to comment
pilgrum Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 lol Win7pro64>JRiver17>ESI JULI@PCIE>Custom AQ DCoax>AdcomGDA700Mod >GTP450ModAUDIO>AudioquestYIQ3>AdcomGFA5500Mod>12gRomex/MC M1.2s/AQ DB14.2>KEF Q Towers>KEF Reference SBox>ESS AMT1C Mod Link to comment
Paul R Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Well, the humor is interesting. On the other hand, if you buy a Wavelength DAC, it comes with a USB cable. The better the DAC, the better the cable. A Proton, the low end of the DAC line, comes with an AudioQuest Cinnamon cable. I really doubt that Gordon Rankin would be throwing away money on USB cables unless he felt it really made a difference. So essentially, you guys have your opinions, but the fact is, unless you have purchased and tried the USB cables on the DACs in question, then you don't know they don't make a difference. Let's see- you guys or the guy who makes some of the best DACs in the world... that's not really all that funny. -Paul Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Jud Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I'm not dead yet! (Seeing your Monty Python sketch and raising you one.) The last time, long ago, that I asked you about differences in what affects analog vs digital interconnects, Julf, you gave me two references, one to a cable manufacturer's marketing information and one to Wikipedia. They referred to electrical characteristics of cables causing signal loss differing by frequency, so affecting frequency response. Wikipedia says capacitance and inductance effects can each cause as much as 1% loss in 50 and 25 feet, respectively, of lamp cord. These effects don't seem to me like good candidates for major audible differences given: - the low level of losses over long runs of lamp cord, when we are likely talking about much shorter lengths of interconnect; and - the fact that we must see differences in signal loss to get differences in frequency response between cables, so if two ~1 meter interconnect cables are built to minimize even the minuscule signal losses (a fraction of 1%) from capacitance and inductance and they do it equally well, we won't get a difference in frequency response between the two. So I named the one difference affecting analog but not digital cables that you have pointed out to me, Julf, that being frequency response, though as noted above I don't know how much of an audible difference there might be between a couple of shortish interconnects. I'm ready to look at any more references you care to point out to me regarding factors that will cause audible differences among analog but not digital cables. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Julf Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Well, there are people claiming that (analog) cables actually have non-linear behavior, and that would cause harmonic distortion. Here is a link to a paper where Bruno Putzeys of Hypex debunks the distortion, but makes a claim for microphonics, including triboelectric effects. Link to comment
4est Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Ha! I just had to play Raydio's Jack and Jill! Gotta love those "Best songs of the '70s" compilations... I didn't have the Ghost Busters soundtrack. Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
pilgrum Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 The unit costs how much retail? $1800 divide that by 4 and that is probably in the range of what the production cost is to make it (not including marketing and dev costs). Audioquest's dealer prices are anywhere from 50-80% less than retail so that cinnamon cable is about 15-25 dollars and the other one was not stated. It is a nice gesture to include a cable with a product and I would like to see the difference on paper. IMHO its like this are you going to put $5 wiper blades on a bentley? No. So why would you plug in a generic chinese $1 cable into a $1800 DAC? Because you have no taste aesthetically. The Wavelength Brick claims to have error correction and a buffer with two way communication built into the USB controller on the board so I would say it is 99% aesthetics 1% theoretical chance. And if your worried about ground noise and these other things then a high quality custom PC with a platinum grade PSU(not available on stock mac) hardwired power cord, pole pig/line conditioner would be on the list before the $300 usb cable wouldn't it? As far as I know the DAC and clock are going to have the biggest impact on the sound. the cable is out for argument but I have yet to see evidence of it. Trade secret companies demo stuff with tracks that are mastered differently to enhance results so a "well i heard it at a trade show" doesn't fly . Win7pro64>JRiver17>ESI JULI@PCIE>Custom AQ DCoax>AdcomGDA700Mod >GTP450ModAUDIO>AudioquestYIQ3>AdcomGFA5500Mod>12gRomex/MC M1.2s/AQ DB14.2>KEF Q Towers>KEF Reference SBox>ESS AMT1C Mod Link to comment
pilgrum Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 lets see some results! dynos? tests? or i am filing this under sugar pill cures cancer! Let's be honest the reason why any of us like how a certain DAC sounds its mostly due to the output stage coloring so imho anything before that is not as important. I am personally more interested on whats after the DAC not before it as long as the files are on par with redbook of course. I would say I'd even buy a chinese tube preamp before a hifi usb cable. And I would hear the difference right away or at least after i got the bias calibrated ;p Win7pro64>JRiver17>ESI JULI@PCIE>Custom AQ DCoax>AdcomGDA700Mod >GTP450ModAUDIO>AudioquestYIQ3>AdcomGFA5500Mod>12gRomex/MC M1.2s/AQ DB14.2>KEF Q Towers>KEF Reference SBox>ESS AMT1C Mod Link to comment
Mark Powell Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 "In fact, virtually everything that affects the sound of analog interconnects, other than frequency response, should also affect the sound of digital cables." I don't think this is true. As long as a bit gets to the far end of the cable without being changed from a zero to a one, or the other way around, 'digital' cables cannot have a 'sound'. But a USB cable has ground and power wires as well. Look inside you DAC and you will usually find that the power wire is not connected, so noise on it cannot affect the DAC. It might be that any noise on this wire changes the bits as they go along the cable, as I said above, but this is *very* unlikely. (USB power is often used in 'budget' USB to S/PDIF converters, but not usually in DACs, budget or otherwise.) Noise on the ground wire? A 'good' cable conducts accurately, so any noise on the ground wire seen by the DAC will be an accurate reproduction of the noise on this wire at the computer end. That of course, is 'good', we don't want inaccurate noise You are correct about frequency response. Unless 'we' as a group, stop talking about a particular USB cable sounding 'dull', 'bright', or similar we are fixed in an irrelevant paradigm and will get absolutely nowhere. 'More detail'? I am extremely suspicious of such claims. How important is noise? Unless it is large enough to change the bits (which probably never happens)it cannot matter. Unlike 'analogue' transmission, noise does *not* become part of the signal. Link to comment
4est Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Gordon Rankin, the owner of Wavelength, is on record as saying that one can hear the differences in USB cables on his DACs (even though he does not know why IIRC). Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
Jud Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I don't think this is true. As long as a bit gets to the far end of the cable without being changed from a zero to a one, or the other way around, 'digital' cables cannot have a 'sound'. This is pretty much what people used to say (still do in some forums) to show why, logically, jitter couldn't make a difference to analog sound. They were quite certain, and quite wrong. It is just an electrical wire, and it behaves according to all the same laws that other electrical wires do. Why the word "digital" seems to convince people that this should not be so (in your case, Mark, to the extent that you heard a clear difference in sound when snipping the power lead of your USB cable, then comment here that the presence of the power lead should make no difference as long as the DAC isn't USB powered) is a puzzle to me. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
elcorso Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Mark, Even if your DAC, USB interface don't need the (+) leg, then non USB power needed, OK? But you need the (-) wire connected in the USB cable, since this is only way the DAC or interface is 'sensed' by the computer, OK? What do you think this (-), or reference ground, is carrying? Are carrying current, or not? This way everything is in 'communication' with the reference ground, or, by the reference ground. The only 'perfect' way to isolate it could by optical interface, but as lot of people believes (or knows), this is not the best way. I know, by Firewire or USB connection between computer and DAC, each manufacturer has to do his 'magic' in the way to get the isolation achieved. But what about to help them (and us) with some nice cable? Roch Link to comment
pilgrum Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 show me results on a graph not "is on record saying". How many people on this forum have recording equipment and a usb dac with a decent cable and a generic one? Its easy hook up a usb dac to rca in of a pc record it with a shit cable and a good one. post the screenshot. even just record silence maybe. Win7pro64>JRiver17>ESI JULI@PCIE>Custom AQ DCoax>AdcomGDA700Mod >GTP450ModAUDIO>AudioquestYIQ3>AdcomGFA5500Mod>12gRomex/MC M1.2s/AQ DB14.2>KEF Q Towers>KEF Reference SBox>ESS AMT1C Mod Link to comment
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