The Computer Audiophile Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 "Simple and obvious to anyone possessing a brain cell." Hi Mark - Do you have any more uplifting and encouraging comments for readers? Only kidding of course. Please refrain from using such comments on CA. People thinking about asking a question on the site don't need to be greeted by such an uninviting comment. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Mark Powell Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 It is an old thread, It is also true. If you care to look at my recent posts to those who are sometimes described as 'newbies', several of whom I have gone out of my way to help at some length, as you will see from their thanks (also given in private messages which you are welcome to look at), you will see that I can be most constructive when requested. Especially with those who do not consider themselves 'experts'. I do it because they deserve encouragement, and because I was in a similar position not so long ago. But a small percentage of the stuff here is ridiculous, even posts from 'experienced' people, and serves only to mystify the rest of us. A recent one about 'external clocks' comes to mind. Nor do I take over a 'newbie' thread with lengthy discussion of some flat loudspeaker when he has just purchased something else. Regards Link to comment
Jud Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 It is an old thread, It is also true. So are you saying it is simple and obvious that USB digital cables can and do make an audible difference? (I actually agree with most of the things you've said about cables, with the possible exception of a completely random distribution of sound quality between "hardware store" and "audiophile" cables. I'm just asking if I'm understanding correctly what you're saying here.) One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Mark Powell Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I was mainly thinking about 'analog' cables. I have grave doubts that any USB cable can make a difference, though I will not say that it is impossible. Regards, Link to comment
nemick Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Whether analogue or digital, I have to agree that no cable can improve any of the components it is connected to. However, I do feel that cables can sometimes create a synergy between two disparate components that might not otherwise be created. I certainly think this is more prevalent with analogue cables. If we accept as a given (which I do), that there exist no "perfect" components, perhaps the whole cable debate comes down to this synergy. If that is the case, I could see how the length of any given cable might have an influence, one way or the other. Just my thoughts. Neil M. CA System 2013 i7 Mac Mini, JRiver, AQ Cinnamon, MF V Link 192, Teradak PS, DACiT, W4S STI 1000, Linn Ninka's Main System (Analogue) LP12, Ittock, Klyde, Lingo 2, Kairn, Wavelength Duetto, AvanteGarde Uno's Main System (Digital) CEC TL51, dCS Elgar, dCS Purcell, Wavelength Duetto, AvanteGarde Uno's Link to comment
Jud Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I have grave doubts that any USB cable can make a difference, though I will not say that it is impossible. Interesting. I believe you thought you heard quite a difference in sound upon defeating the power leg of a USB cable, correct? So are you now disbelieving what you heard? One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
4est Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 "A cable can only leave alone, or detract from the quality of the signal given to it." No, a cable can only detract. It is to what extent that it does so that seems to be at play here. Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
tarquineous Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I would like to point out: The "shorter cable" theory leads to integrated components, which brings about their own set of problems. For example, an integrated amp instead of separates. Or worse yet, an integrated amp with a built in CD player. Sure there is less cable length, especially signal path length, but then you have shared power supplies, EMI exchange inside the chassis, and usually downsized or crowded internal parts. Plus the option of changing or upgrading a section such as the DAC or preamp, becomes more difficult. Similar things occur when shortening cables to the least possible. Now the components are closer together, and so are the power cords and other cables. WI-FI even eliminates a few cables completely, but then broadcasts into every part of the system (not that all parts pick it up). So it's hard to win all the way around. Tarq Link to comment
elcorso Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I cancelled my subscription to this thread several days ago, and until now I read your always negative (but never constructive) replies. I you want to impress someone regarding antenna lengths, please get some goods books about, or talk to a good technician. The length I mentioned is regarding how powerful stations or repeaters emit the signal, and the appropriate antenna length you need on your input receiver. If you are not sure about length affecting digital cables, you should! This is a digital forum and you are the specialist. Regarding cable 'direction' I talk about why some cable manufacturers speculate about. The best theory to me (but I don't apply it) is that the shielding is better truncated at the beginning of the cable. But the electrons they have direction: from ground. Is like when you see a thunder getting the earth, but is the contrary, the earth getting the charge from the charged cloud. Then an optical effect. If you study electronic circuits you must know than on balanced configurations you will have two references to ground, one from the balanced connection, and other from ground pin from your AC feed. That means more ground loops, then more noise. And, some frequency increase in about 300 Hz. But I have some friends who like noise also. Could I suggest you to remove your hearing protectors (I'm sorry but I saw it from your photo) and listen carefully to music instead of trying to replicate what are already on some books. Mark Powell, "...A cable can only leave alone, or detract from the quality of the signal given to it. It can *never* improve it. So, the shorter it is the less opportunity to detract from it. Simple and obvious to anyone possessing a brain cell. I do agree with you, a cable should not be used for equalizing. But the shorter the better, I can't agree. If you don't agree with the antenna issues, please take a close look on cable resonances. And also look a at how in nature the length is very important regarding our body 'components': - Neurons lenght varies from 4 microns to 2 meters - Length of myelinated nerve fibers in brain = 150,000-180,000 km - Auditory (or acoustic) nerve length is about 1" - Small intestine length is about 23 feet. Everything depending on his functions. But, optimal pen*s lenght , it depends on your ego. Cheers! Roch Link to comment
Jud Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 optimal pen*s length So we finally got there, you nasty old man! ;-D One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
elcorso Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 If you are younger than me, congratulations! But please remember, time is inexorable. If I'm nasty for you, are you my confessor, you are a puritan or what? But you could be nasty than me when elder, thanks of your lack of sense of humor. If you get there. If you believe you can offend me telling I'm old man, you choose the wrong one, since I have a life plenty of happiness thanks to a lovely family I ground up with my wife. I think I never offended you in this forum, and I don't know you from other places. But I forgive this and God bless you! Roch Link to comment
Paul R Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Jud was making a very funny joke, but it is a little culture dependent. Trust me, it is a joke that you only attribute to people you like. It was a play on words. -Paul Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
sandyk Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Roch I think you may have misinterpreted Jud's sense of humour? Perhaps if he had said dirty old man instead ? (wink) Kind Regards Alex P.S. That is I think, another example of where "smilies" may help to cross language and cultural barriers. How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
tarquineous Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 This is what happens when people try to invalidate the experience of others. Back to the subject. I believe it was Mr. Powell who compared two different brands of Firewire cables, one shorter than the other. The shorter one sounded better to him. Was it because of the length difference, or because of the different construction of the two brands ? A better test would be two different lengths of each brand, all of them run in for a week or so. Even better, more than two brands of different length. Tarq Link to comment
elcorso Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I'm so sorry! Roch back to school again, take some more English lessons! I's the same on my small country (Spanish spoken), a lot of the same words in the nearest countries, but also in Mexico, Spain, et al, means the reverse... I do apologize, but a least I didn't offend you (I believe). Google translators help a lot with some spelling, but not with concepts. Kind regards, Roch Link to comment
Mark Powell Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 It wasn't me. I don't have any Firewire equipment. Also, as I have have a 'technical' background I would not make such an elementary mistake in such an experiment Link to comment
Mark Powell Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Roch. I find you and I are 'on the same page' much of the time, but not on this occasion. I do know about cable resonance, but I do not think they are relevant at the fairly low frequencies here. However, that is not my main point. Ideally, one might buy the 'boxes' having their inputs on the left side, and their outputs on the right, lay them out in a line like a schematic diagram, and have the cables only an inch or two long. Link to comment
Mark Powell Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I know, I only put the 'leave alone' in so as not to upset those who had paid mad amounts of money for a piece of wire Link to comment
Mark Powell Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I think a 'powered' USB, such as I made, or, maybe better still, but I could not be bothered, opening the relevant box, disconnecting the power pin from the USB socket, and running wires to a good power supply or a battery is a different issue. It makes the box independent of the maybe noisy power supplied by the computer. It is not really a cable issue at all. To further clarify my USB comment, I think that, assuming a USB cable change can make any difference at all, which I tend not to, though am not entirely sure about, a shorter cable will give the 'bits' (I know they are not quite what they look like in the usual diagram) less opportunity to jiggle about, up and down or side to side. Link to comment
Jud Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 It is not really a cable issue at all. Cables, as you pointed out, can only do harm. And your design (shared by various commercial cables) resulted in a cable that did less of it by carrying less electrical noise into the rest of the system. This is important for any cable, especially digital cables. But if you prefer to think of it as not a cable issue, OK. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
steve2701 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I'm off in an hour to get my brain cells counted. If I'm 'correct' the statement made to justify this is completely 'incorrect'. I just hope I have more than one cell or I'm going to look silly. Link to comment
Julf Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 "And your design (shared by various commercial cables) resulted in a cable that did less of it by carrying less electrical noise into the rest of the system. This is important for any cable, especially digital cables." Well... One way to look at it is that as long as the other characteristics of the cable are "good enough" for the communication to work, the only audible contribution of a digital cable is through inducing electrical noise and/or ground loops. Whereas any electrical noise picked up by an analog cable immediately becomes part of the signal itself, the electrical noise introduced by a digital interconnect only affects the audible sound *if* and to the degree the DAC circuitry is affected by the noise. I see no justification for your statement that suppression of electrical noise is any more important in a digital cable than in an analog one. A digital cable doesn't carry any *more* noise and ground current than an analog cable or an earthing wire. Link to comment
audiozorro Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 observation by many audiophiles. In some cases this may very well be a sonic improvement as in the case when an excessively bright system is tamed by cables that attenuate some harsh high frequencies. Cable material, shielding, length, and connections (just to name a few) can also make a sonic difference for better or worse. What's next? Is someone going to claim that resistors of the same value or capacitors of the same value cannot make a sonic difference? Wouldn't it be great if all analog and digital cables sounded the same regardless of design, construction or cost? Keep dreaming. When it comes to music and audio, everything matters and many things matter more than others. I am not an advocate for spending big bucks on cables, but if you have the money and your music and system are sonically impressive (sounding like real beautiful music) to you and most others who hear it, then why not? But if you don't have the money to splurge or the fundamentals of your audio system are deficient in so many other or more important areas, then you should not be spending lots of money on cables, expecting new or different cables to solve all your system ills. Link to comment
Julf Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 "The fact that cables can make a sonic difference is a well known observation by many audiophiles" Analog, yes. Digital less so. Could we please keep remembering the difference? This discussion is about *digital* cables. Digital cables behave differently with regards to the audio signal. No, not saying they are perfect, but different. They do not affect the signal content directly, they only (possibly) affect the analog parts and clock indirectly, through conducted noise and ground loops. Link to comment
Paul R Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 You have any facts to back that up? Surveys, comprehensive and statistically significant testing? Or is that, your own opinion stated as fact? Most people I know can hear a difference in say, USB cables between a computer and a DAC here even in my most modest system. That includes a couple dozen friends and aquaintances. Ancedotal evidence of course. But those same people, including me cannot hear any difference whatsoever using different USB cables between the same computer and storage devices. Or using different ethernet cables. Which is again, ancedotal evidence and proves exactly nothing. So again, do you have some peer reviewed test results or is this just opinion? The point of course, is opinion is not equivalent to fact, and you should label it as IMO or IME. Paul Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
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