Best USB cable to use between computer and dac?

[Paul R]

When I reverse the cables I hear a change, and when I undo the reversal, they change back. I cannot explain that, but they do, and I get better than 90% accuracy picking out when they are reversed, with my wife swapping the cables around so I don't know which is which.

 

That compelled me at least to believe something I don't understand is happening. Not sure I really care why, as the effective result in any case, is that the cables work better in one direction than the other.

 

So don't be too sure of your conclusions. After all, A/C current was once opposed as a standard because everyone knew it could not possibly do any work!

 

-Paul

 

 

 

 

[tarquineous]

Quite a few manufacturers use a different material for the signal vs the ground for single ended interconnects and AC power.

 

The difference with these cable/signal paths, is one side is connected to chassis or ground(non balanced cables). I still don't know why it would make a difference, because like you say, the electricity(or current), reverses direction, in time with frequency.

 

Wywires, Bybee Labs, and Mojo Audio do this. Might be enlightening to ask them why.

 

I asked Lessloss audio why they double the wire on one leg of their power cord. I did not like the answer because he started talking about one side being the "return" path. I explained to him how both legs are the return path, one at a time of course.

 

To make a long story short, he did not have a good technical answer, but said during listening tests, the configuration used, sounded best.

 

[Julf]

"The difference with these cable/signal paths, is one side is connected to chassis or ground(non balanced cables). I still don't know why it would make a difference, because like you say, the electricity(or current), reverses direction, in time with frequency."

 

Here is a great powerpoint from part of a tutorial workshop at the 2005 IEEE-EMC Symposium. that "includes Bill Whitlock's groundbreaking work on balanced interfaces, and shows why when a cable shield is connected only at one end to prevent shield current, the connection point should always be at the sending end."

 

Audio Interfacing for Non-Audio Professionals

 

 

 

[jjavan]

Dear Chris:

 

First, thank you for starting this site; it has helped me out tremendously in setting up my digital system for the 21'st century.

 

I would also like to retract my statement about quantum tunneling and Synergistic Research cables. Pumping 3 million volts through a Tesla coil certainly changes the nature of the sound of the cable, but it certainly cannot induce a state where an electron passes through a barrier producing a better sounding cable.

 

Given that Ted Denney was a philosophy major, and supposedly self-taught, I won't believe his hypothesis until I read the white paper.

 

The idea of quantum tunneling is that the electron borrows energy from it's surrounding electrons to pass through the barrier, and then pays it back by making the reflected electrons more energetic. An understanding of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle helps grasp the concept of quantum tunneling.

 

Still, after doing blind tests with a series of cables, and audiophiles present, all agreed that the Tesla Tricon sounded the best.

 

Therefore, I postulate that there is something we don't know about the transfer of digital packets through a cable yet. Just like jitter in a digital cable was poo-pooed in the '90s I suspect were going to discover things about the interaction between a digital cable, computer, and D.A.C.

 

[Julf]

"after doing blind tests with a series of cables, and audiophiles present, all agreed that the Tesla Tricon sounded the best"

 

Did any of the other cables in the test have separately shielded power conductors?

 

 

 

[Mark Powell]

I was more than just skeptical about their QT claim, I thought, and still think it is pure, unadulterated BS. Denney being a philosophy major means he may knows as little about QT as my cat. And I have never seen, with this or any other other subject, how a 'white paper' carries any more weight than any other method of communication, such as, for example, an advertisement (I'm in the UK, such unprovable claims are not allowed in advertising here).

 

However, having got all that off my chest, I emailed them and received a courteous and thought provoking reply, though it did include the phrase 'QT treated cables'. Nevertheless, I had heard good reports of their cables, and they also said that musicians bring their brass instruments in for treating. And that, I believe, would be done on the recommendation of other musicians. So there may be something in his treatment, but not QT. Don't think even 'real' QT affects air being blown down a brass tube.

 

I went so far as to check the prices of the 'Tesla' interconnects and on finding prices up to 5000 dollars for a one metre interconnect, my reaction was 'here we go again' and did not pursue it further. (I see in another thread an office chair lookalike 'listening chair' costs 13,000 dollars.) Frankly, I have never known such mugs as some members of the hi fi community. And obviously, some chair and cable manufacturers know it.

 

Regards

 

[elcorso]

Here on the Rainforest there are a lot of mountains, then sometimes cellular phone communications are difficult.

 

Several years ago a neighbor about a block away from my home had a powerful radio station in the 1.5 meters band. On Saturday evenings when I was listening to music, his voice irrupted on my speakers! After this, and two or three heavy words with this guy, I began my cable investigation:

 

70 to 140 cms: FM stations (like the length of your car antenna)

 

125, 150 or 200 cms: Radio communication.

 

Consulted an expert, and he guided me to to 183 cms cable length (6'), or double, triple, etc. I did it and my problem finished forever.

 

I don't know on digital cables, I use a 100 cms for Firewire or USB, but 183 cms (6') on coaxial for cable reflections issues. You can read about this after some google search. It also affect analog cables.

 

Then I don't know how to believe if shorter is better.

 

Directional cables? Some of them they are marked with an arrow in order you use it all the time in the same electrons flow way... Others, because of the shielding... And some others as a marketing strategy.

 

I have the same opinion as Forrest on balanced cables (or circuits), since they were stablished for pro users on long lengths. For us, single ended will be OK. A component designed 'full balanced' will expensive than a SE. And worst if not built this way, but with Op-Amp noisy transformers.

 

My 2 cts (about 5 Colones). And please don't do this a matter of heavy discussions. I share what I do, but also learn from you.

 

Roch

 

 

[Jud]

Be careful when using Wikipedia not to take it as gospel, especially when the article itself tells you it's not being literal. The quote you paraphrased, unattributed, from Wikipedia is as follows:

 

Here, the ball could, in a sense, borrow energy from its surroundings to tunnel through the wall or roll over the hill, paying it back by making the reflected electrons more energetic than they otherwise would have been.

 

Note the phrase you deleted, "in a sense." Also note the article says "from its surroundings," not your paraphrase "it's (sic) surrounding electrons." The tunneling electron, conceptually speaking, is thought of as borrowing energy from nowhere at all. See http://webphysics.iupui.edu/warmup/iupui_archive/stm.html - "In the case of tunneling, the particle briefly 'borrows' an extra bit of energy from nowhere, uses it to travel through a barrier and then gives the enrgy back after it is done."

 

An electron actually can receive real energy from surrounding electrons in the classical sense, and when that happens it isn't quantum tunneling. That classical energy transfer is the sort that could be induced by human agency, whereas the "energy transfer" in quantum tunneling is a conceptual framework used to describe a probabilistic phenomenon that cannot be affected by humans, whether through zapping materials with Tesla coils or otherwise.

 

[jjavan]

Tarq,

 

A show is no place to hear a cable, or any other equipment in my opinion.

 

Anyway, glad that helped, and let me know what you think.

 

Sincerely,

 

Justin

 

[wgscott]

Well, unless the manufacturer is very careful about this, there should be two populations of cables, one with the correct orientation, and the other inverted. In other words, half of the cables should be better than the other half.

 

I do wonder, however, whether spin-up electrons might prefer one cable directionality, and spin-down electrons the other?

 

[Elk]

". . . he may knows as little about QT as my cat."

 

Cats have a Zen-like appreciation of quantum mechanics, even more so of string theory.

 

[jjavan]

Hi Jud,

 

I was a biochem major at UCLA, so we had to take physical chemistry. Rather than go into my version of all this, I was busy, so I used the Wikipedia version because it was put in understandable terms, and I didn't have to write out any formulas.

 

Furthermore, you are right, in my rush to reply this morning I didn't properly attribute my source, which is a big no-no.

 

Thank you for pointing that out.

 

In the classical sense, yes, free electrons at lower energy levels colliding with an electrons at a higher energy level will transfer said energy until equilibrium (given that energy can neither be created or destroyed) is achieved (if memory serves).

 

Just curious, what's your background?

 

Justin

 

[jjavan]

My cat is doing his graduate thesis on QT!

 

[wgscott]

Rather than derail this, I wrote up a blog entry:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/Quantum-mechanical-tunneling-and-cables

 

 

 

[jjavan]

They're very nice over there from top to bottom, and their components have had a profound effect on my system.

 

In the end, that's all any of us should care about.

 

Justin

 

[jjavan]

I'll only read the blog if we can solve equations afterwords. God, I can't believe I actually pulled out my chemistry books this evening over this subject.

 

Well it's my own damn fault now isn't it?

 

Justin

 

[jjavan]

The Audioquest Coffee USB cable; however, as you know, the theory and implementation is completely different.

 

Justin

 

[Julf]

"70 to 140 cms: FM stations (like the length of your car antenna)"

 

The waqvelength of a radio signal (in m) is the speed of light in empty space (c = 299 792 458 m/s) divided by the frequency (in Hz). So for a 100 MHz FM signal, the wavelength is 3 m. You want to avoid multiples of half the wavelength, or 1.5 m.

 

"I don't know on digital cables, I use a 100 cms for Firewire or USB, but 183 cms (6') on coaxial for cable reflections issues. You can read about this after some google search. It also affect analog cables."

 

It definitely affects analog cables if they don't have enough HF attenuation. Not so sure about digital ones.

 

"Then I don't know how to believe if shorter is better."

 

The shorter your cable, the more likely you are to be less than half a wavelength of any significant RF, and the less HF it picks up. Unfortunately the half wavelength of 2.4 Ghz, the frequency of wireless networks and other stuff, is only 6 cm.

 

"Directional cables? Some of them they are marked with an arrow in order you use it all the time in the same electrons flow way... "

 

The electrons don't really flow this way or that, they just oscillate. The audio signals are AC, alternating current, that has no "direction".

 

"I have the same opinion as Forrest on balanced cables (or circuits), since they were stablished for pro users on long lengths. For us, single ended will be OK. A component designed 'full balanced' will expensive than a SE."

 

Since when has cost been an issue for a true audiophile?

 

Agree, full balanced will be somewhat more expensive, but it will be far superior in rejecting noise. I find it interesting that a lot of people spend hundreds of dollars on unbalanced cables, when the same money spent on the slightly higher cost of balanced gear would bring much better results.

 

 

 

[Jud]

Just curious, what's your background?

 

Attorney.

 

Lawyers - Just Helping to Make the World a Better Place

 

Quantum Physics and Doing Fast Fourier Transforms in Your Head were a couple of the basic first year courses at law school, before we went on to more advanced topics like Patent Trolling, Ensuring Kids Have No Place To Play Due To Liability Concerns, and of course Evil-Sounding Laughs.

 

I'll be here all week [rimshot].

 

(Elvis) Thank you. Thankyouverymuch. Can I have another jelly donut? (/Elvis)

 

 

 

[Jud]

Cats have a Zen-like appreciation of quantum mechanics....

 

Schrödinger, is that you? Open up this damned box!

 

- Signed, The Cat

 

P.S. On second thought, maybe you'd better not.

 

[Julf]

"The Audioquest Coffee USB cable"

 

Too bad they don't do the "Vodka" as an USB cable...

 

"however, as you know, the theory and implementation is completely different."

 

Indeed. They seem to use battery power, but only to "create a strong, stable electrostatic field which saturates and polarizes (organizes) the molecules of the insulation", not to power the USB device.

 

And of course, not everybody agrees with their theories of molecular reorganization:

 

Audioholics: Audioquest Cable Theories Exposed.

 

 

 

[lotriwer]

I had a very interesting experience today. Always used a generic USB cable between my PC and DAC before. Got new cable from ebay and plugged it instead of the old one last night. Completely forgot about it, as I thought USB cable is just a USB cable. Someone came to my place today and I offered to demo my audio system. As I played it to the guy, I noticed that it sounded much brighter, thinner and narrower. Couldn't understand why... Until I remembered that the USB cable was different.

 

[thegoodarcher]

I've had great results with the DH Labs USB Cable - very clean and articulate sound

( and i am using a 4 meter run) which not short, This is my 3rd USB cable after Audioquest Cinamon and the overpriced Synergistic Research, and i am sticking to DH Labs.

 

[57gold]

Great values.

 

4 meters seems awfully long for a USB.

 

I tried a 3 meter specialty FW cable and a generic 1 meter sounded way better than the longer, more expensive one. Gordon Rankin, Mr USB to me, encouraged customers to keep the USB short (0.5 meter signficantly better than 1 or 2 meter, was his opinion). You played around with various lengths?

 

Anyone else try the DH Labs USB versus some of the usual suspects (AQ, Cardas, WW, Transparent....)?

 

[Mark Powell]

A cable can only leave alone, or detract from the quality of the signal given to it.

 

It can *never* improve it.

 

So, the shorter it is the less opportunity to detract from it.

 

Simple and obvious to anyone possessing a brain cell.