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Suggestions for audio upgrade


uyire

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I personally wouldn't waste my money on a dac ...you will be much hiappier putting that $1500 into the best used speakers you can get...and before dac I would also upgrade AMP.

 

ime dacs have made little difference in this budget...Embedded dacs in blurays and avrs or even a used ifi for $200 and then put the rest into speakers.  You can get some great speakers that will make a huge difference.

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This will be the best money you can spend, and you will have a center channel for if you ever go to multi-channel...center is necessity for home theatre voice.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-pc-B-W-Bowers-Wilkins-CDM-7NT-Matching-Center-Audiophile-Speakers-High-End-/172897741737?hash=item2841822ba9:g:k5sAAOSwIWtZ0PGe

 

To connect to pc, you can use a $50 sony bluray (bdps7200)....supports dsd via DLNA and usb drive...also gets you SACD and 4K support.

 

Get a used Roger Pass (Pass Labs) nakamichi stassis TA3 for $150

 

 

 

 

 

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From my understanding by asking the OP some questions (hey it's how I roll) he's looking at replacing Active Monitors driven directly from headphone out of a PC.

 

If you are getting rid of active monitors then you are going to at least need an amp.

 

The UMC204HD provides a lot of flexibility, competes with 3/400 boutique DAC's and doesn't meaningfully take away from speaker choices.

 

Used is also good but that's up to the OP if they want to go that route.

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1 minute ago, plissken said:

From my understanding by asking the OP some questions (hey it's how I roll) he's looking at replacing Active Monitors driven directly from headphone out of a PC.

 

If you are getting rid of active monitors then you are going to at least need an amp.

 

The UMC204HD provides a lot of flexibility, competes with 3/400 boutique DAC's and doesn't meaningfully take away from speaker choices.

 

Used is also good but that's up to the OP if they want to go that route.

oh, ok..i will have to re-read...i didnt catch that.

 

I would still recommend against that and to just do dlna.

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14 minutes ago, plissken said:

From my understanding by asking the OP some questions (hey it's how I roll) he's looking at replacing Active Monitors driven directly from headphone out of a PC.

 

If you are getting rid of active monitors then you are going to at least need an amp.

 

The UMC204HD provides a lot of flexibility, competes with 3/400 boutique DAC's and doesn't meaningfully take away from speaker choices.

 

Used is also good but that's up to the OP if they want to go that route.

 

ok, i was just responding to his first post, and then i see in his 2nd post he is thinking of dac/amp.

 

My response is pretty much the same though...with his current onkyo/klipsch, and $1500 budget, i would forget about an expensive dac...he would be MUCH happier going with cheap dac (the $84 one would be fine), if he didn't want to mess with DLNA, and the rest on speakers.  Also to entertain his amp, i would recommend used NAD or the Nakamichi TA3.....

 

He will appreciate money spent on speakers MUCH more than a dac in his current budget.

 

 

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22 hours ago, uyire said:

@plissken @gmgraves I do have infinity surrounds and emotiva sub but not using them these days due to space constraints. With kids, I find myself using my office computer for listening. Hence, am interested in upgrading my office audio setup which is primarily nothing but MacBook pro, Windows pc and audio engine 5 and audio engine 2+ speakers.

 

I would like to spend my budget as efficiently as possible hence am open to any suggestion that can help me achieve better quality. Though I am happy with the current output for whatever I am listening to, I am eager to see what my investment of 1.5k/2k can do for me. 

 

Any speakers/amps suggestions? I can also wait a month or so to add another 1k to my budget and do the upgrade in one shot. I am afraid I won't have the luxury to spend anymore on equipments for the next  2/3 years. 

 

Thanks

Hi Uyire,

 

Your head spinning yet? Amazing isn't it that a bunch of people in a hobby of similar age would have such large discrepancy in their attitudes.

 

In your position I would take a deep breath and redefine what it is you are trying to achieve. When my family was young I also did all my "serious" listening in the sanctuary of my office. If that is going to be the case, and money is an issue, then stick with your gear in your lounge room for the kids and family (it will get trashed) and concentrate on your office gear.

 

The Audioengine speakers are by all accounts very good (I have not heard them) so despite the comments of others all you really need do is add a USB DAC to your MAC Book Pro. The DAC in the MAC is simply inadequate for serious listening.

 

I have the The SMSL IDEA USB DAC recommended above by beerandmusic and it is surprisingly good for US$85. Checkout their web site as they make more sophisticated equipment such as the M8A for $250 with more connectivity (optical and coaxial) if you want to add other gear. I have both DACs and they do a very good job and IMO you do not have to spend a lot more money for a desk top system. I have a much more expensive Benchmark DAC 1 HDR and they hold there own against it.

 

SMSL is Chinese and you may be wishing to support the "red white blue" so US products such as the Emotiva mentioned above would be good alternative. Being Australian I have no problem buying Chinese as US products here are greatly marked up and a rip off.

 

Next purchase some decent software such as Audirvana, HQ Player, J River etc. All have 30 day trials.

 

If you want to go to another level of sound quality then purchase a pair of Active speakers. The Audioengine are powered speakers meaning that there is a single built in power amp, which comes BEFORE a passive cross over. One of the speakers has the amp built in and the other is a slave. In an active speaker each individual driver has its own amp, which are therefore located AFTER the crossover, which is active. All things being equal an active speaker will produce better sound.

 

The beauty of either a powered or active speaker is that your system is greatly simplified and already has synergy built in - that is you don't have to match amps and speakers. Also from a practical point of view you will have less gear on your desk top.

 

For many years I had my Benchmark playing into a pair of Adam A7 active speakers (now upgraded to the A7X) and the sound was awesome. Originally in 2009 I paid 2k for the Benchmark and $1500 for the Adams, however, today you would get the lot second hand for less than $2k. 

 

To summarise work out where you are going to do your listening and then spend your money there. Read up on DACs and Active speakers and go that route. Alternatively the Active KEF LS50 speakers with built in DAC could be ideal but this limits your upgrade path.

 

Most speaker companies manufacture active speakers.

 

Good luck,

 

Ajax

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

LOUNGE: Mac Mini - Audirvana - Devialet 200 - ATOHM GT1 Speakers

OFFICE : Mac Mini - Audirvana - Benchmark DAC1HDR - ADAM A7 Active Monitors

TRAVEL : MacBook Air - Dragonfly V1.2 DAC - Sennheiser HD 650

BEACH : iPhone 6 - HRT iStreamer DAC - Akimate Micro + powered speakers

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Based on the suggestions here, I am considering these options. Please let me know if this looks okay: I will be using this setup from my office MacBook pro. 

 

1) BMR philharmonitor $1350

 

2) Schiit BiFrost($399), BiFrost Multi bit ($599),  Emotiva X1DC($499)

 

3) Emotiva BasX A150 $229. Any other suggestions for amps? Do I need it at all? Looks like for BMR I will need it. 

 

Also considering KES LF50W $2200

 

I don't have any knowledge on the specs. Could someone help me understand this? BMR spec says this:

 

Sensitivity

84.5 dB (dB/2.83v/1M)

 

 

I also came across this: is BMR inefficient? 

 

https://www.lifewire.com/amp-power-speaker-efficiency-3135077

 

Speakers range in efficiency or sensitivity from about 85dB (very inefficient) up to 105dB (very efficient). As a comparison, a speaker with 85 dB efficiency rating will take twice the amplifier power to reach the same volume as a speaker with 88 dB efficiency. Similarly, a speaker with an 88 dB efficiency rating will require ten times more power than a speaker with a 98 dB efficiency rating to play at the same level

 

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19 hours ago, plissken said:

 

The Behringer kills the Dragonfly it in the utility department and I doubt anyone here, blind, could tell the difference in the SQ department. So that's where I'm coming from. 

 

HP output

4 analog out

TRS and RCA I/O

 

The UMC204HD is most certainly a DAC. It also has ADC and HeadPhone capabilities. I'm using it right now for my office setup. I have two cables: USB and HP.  You plug it in, you install the drivers, you connect the L/R outs to your amp and away you go. The rest of the stuff? If you don't need it you don't use it. 

 

Try this with the DragonFly:

 

Take the main outs on the Behringer and feed your L/R into your monitors. Then take the additional playback outputs and feed a pair of subs that have their own DSP. 

 

The OP want's the best possible SQ for the budget. I think  my approach nets him that plus the ability to add to the setup down the road in form of additional sound reinforcement in the lowest octaves. Heck the 204HD even has better Jitter performance than the popular iFi that people like here. 

 

Mr. Plissken, I still don't think you get what I'm trying to get across, here. The OP obviously doesn't need to: "try this with a DragonFly"! He just want's a DAC. And I mentioned the DragonFly only as a more practical USB-to-audio-only alternative to the Behringer. Frankly, since the OP is just getting started in digital audio, he doesn't know what he's going to need in even the short-term future. I wouldn't suggest a solution to him that restricted him only to USB. He's certainly going to need USB, but he's also possibly going to need Toslink S/PDIF as well as Coaxial S/PDIF. Your Behringer, while probably a fine solution for someone who want's to record themselves playing a midi instrument and singing, but I doubt that's what the OP wants to do. If it were, I suspect he'd have mentioned it. Now I understand where you're coming from, and I can see where the gadgeteer in you (or me) would find the UMC204HD attractive (and I do), but I just don't feel it's anywhere near the best solution for our OP.  

George

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1 hour ago, uyire said:

Based on the suggestions here, I am considering these options. Please let me know if this looks okay: I will be using this setup from my office MacBook pro. 

 

1) BMR philharmonitor $1350

 

2) Schiit BiFrost($399), BiFrost Multi bit ($599),  Emotiva X1DC($499)

 

3) Emotiva BasX A150 $229. Any other suggestions for amps? Do I need it at all? Looks like for BMR I will need it. 

 

Also considering KES LF50W $2200

 

I don't have any knowledge on the specs. Could someone help me understand this? BMR spec says this:

 

Sensitivity

84.5 dB (dB/2.83v/1M)

 

 

I also came across this: is BMR inefficient? 

 

https://www.lifewire.com/amp-power-speaker-efficiency-3135077

 

Speakers range in efficiency or sensitivity from about 85dB (very inefficient) up to 105dB (very efficient). As a comparison, a speaker with 85 dB efficiency rating will take twice the amplifier power to reach the same volume as a speaker with 88 dB efficiency. Similarly, a speaker with an 88 dB efficiency rating will require ten times more power than a speaker with a 98 dB efficiency rating to play at the same level

 

Easy. The less efficient the speaker (like the 84.5 dB/1 Watt that you posted) the more minimum power it takes to operate them effectively. The BMRs are VERY inefficient and need lots of power. I don't know how the Philhamonitors sound, I've never heard them, but their specs are impressive (30Hz-20KHz ±2 dB ), especially the frequency response. If they can really do that (they measured that response in anechoic chamber, so all bets are off in a real room) then they are some speaker. But they're going to need at least 100 Watts (RMS) per channel for an amplifier and I would recommend 150!

George

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14 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Easy. The less efficient the speaker (like the 84.5 dB/1 Watt that you posted) the more minimum power it takes to operate them effectively. The BMRs are VERY inefficient and need lots of power. I don't know how the Philhamonitors sound, I've never heard them, but their specs are impressive (30Hz-20KHz ±2 dB ), especially the frequency response. If they can really do that (they measured that response in anechoic chamber, so all bets are off in a real room) then they are some speaker. But they're going to need at least 100 Watts (RMS) per channel for an amplifier and I would recommend 150!

Dennis Murphy the designer of the Philhamonitors has a great reputation so I trust the claims. As far as amplification goes you can get a very fine 150 watts with the TI TPA3255 and a Meanwell SMPS for less than $150 if you don't mind a little diy. I'm listening to this amp now and can't say I notice any difference between this and the NCore.

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1 hour ago, Mordikai said:

Dennis Murphy the designer of the Philhamonitors has a great reputation so I trust the claims. As far as amplification goes you can get a very fine 150 watts with the TI TPA3255 and a Meanwell SMPS for less than $150 if you don't mind a little diy. I'm listening to this amp now and can't say I notice any difference between this and the NCore.

So I have to ask.  Why a Meanwell SMPS?  It's not even a good SMPS.

mQa is dead!

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10 minutes ago, lucretius said:

So I have to ask.  Why a Meanwell SMPS?  It's not even a good SMPS.

You're welcome to use a better power supply, either an smps or linear. I only pointed out the Meanwell because its cheap and readily available. The TPA3255 has very good noise rejection and I have not found the Meanwell to be a problem.

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2 hours ago, gmgraves said:

 

Mr. Plissken, I still don't think you get what I'm trying to get across, here. The OP obviously doesn't need to: "try this with a DragonFly"! He just want's a DAC. And I mentioned the DragonFly only as a more practical USB-to-audio-only alternative to the Behringer. Frankly, since the OP is just getting started in digital audio, he doesn't know what he's going to need in even the short-term future. I wouldn't suggest a solution to him that restricted him only to USB. He's certainly going to need USB, but he's also possibly going to need Toslink S/PDIF as well as Coaxial S/PDIF. Your Behringer, while probably a fine solution for someone who want's to record themselves playing a midi instrument and singing, but I doubt that's what the OP wants to do. If it were, I suspect he'd have mentioned it. Now I understand where you're coming from, and I can see where the gadgeteer in you (or me) would find the UMC204HD attractive (and I do), but I just don't feel it's anywhere near the best solution for our OP.  

 

Is this some sort of joke on your part?

 

The OP listed his sources: 1. PC and 1 Mac. Also we are at COMPUTERAUDIOPHILE where 99% of connectivity is going to be USB. The Behringer provides much more flexibility than the AQ DF. It is what it is.

 

Didn't know the Dragon Fly took other input sources than USB.  Again you let me know when you want to put some 24/192 material through the DF and UMC204HD blinded.

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20 hours ago, plissken said:

 

Is this some sort of joke on your part?

 

The OP listed his sources: 1. PC and 1 Mac. Also we are at COMPUTERAUDIOPHILE where 99% of connectivity is going to be USB. The Behringer provides much more flexibility than the AQ DF. It is what it is.

 

Didn't know the Dragon Fly took other input sources than USB.  Again you let me know when you want to put some 24/192 material through the DF and UMC204HD blinded.

 

C'mon, try reading for content! :) I said that the DragonFly is a better solution for the OP than the Behringer IF WE ARE RESTRICTING HIM to USB. I never said nor intimated that the DragonFly was anything other than USB. Also, what about if he decides to stream, via WiFi to his main stereo from one of his desktops using server software and a server client such as an Auralic Mini or some other server client? They don't generally output USB. Neither do "universal" disk players (Blu-Ray, SACD, DVD, CD) such as those from Oppo, Sony, and Marantz. The OP also stated that he will be in the market for one of those, soon.

 

There is no way to justify recommending a device to this OP that has the following characteristics: 1) Primarily a recording ADC with DAC capability only as an adjunct to the ADC capability to allow playback of what was just recorded. 2) A feature set aimed at amateur recording, not audiophile listening. 3) Only a USB interface and no S/PDIF, meaning it cannot be used with a disk player, an audio server client or a local storage NAS solution.

 

Finally, 24/192, like DSD, is not mainstream now, nor is it likely to be so in the near future. Having recorded in both 24/96 and 24/192 simultaneously (as well as DSD), I can tell you that 192 is overkill. There is simply no reason for it. All it does is eat-up more storage and fill it with nothing as there is no musical content to the signal above the mid 30KHz region, and even then, we aren't recording for dogs, we're recording for humans. Even the keenest hearing humans (pre-pubescent girl children) can't hear above about 24 KHz. And most of us aging audiophiles are lucky if we can still hear 15 KHz! 24/96 is what the lion's share of digital audio is or is going to be. Even SACD, which I like very much, will eventually die out -  sorry to say. 

George

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2 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

C'mon, try reading for content! :) I said that the DragonFly is a better solution for the OP than the Behringer IF WE ARE RESTRICTING HIM to USB. I never said nor intimated that the DragonFly was anything other than USB. Also, what about if he decides to stream, via WiFi to his main stereo from one of his desktops using server software and a server client such as an Auralic Mini or some other server client? They don't generally output USB. Neither do "universal" disk players (Blu-Ray, SACD, DVD, CD) such as those from Oppo, Sony, and Marantz. The OP also stated that he will be in the market for one of those, soon.

 

The UMC204HD has TRS (analog) inputs for stereo. 

 

I would encourage the OP to get a $30 BR drive for his PC and still output over USB. 

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22 hours ago, Mordikai said:

Dennis Murphy the designer of the Philhamonitors has a great reputation so I trust the claims. As far as amplification goes you can get a very fine 150 watts with the TI TPA3255 and a Meanwell SMPS for less than $150 if you don't mind a little diy. I'm listening to this amp now and can't say I notice any difference between this and the NCore.

 

I'm primarily an ESL guy (Martin-Logans and Sound-Lab with an occasional detour into Isodynamic land [Magnepan]) but with a frequency response as flat as the Philhamonitors' graphs show it, they have to sound spectacular.

George

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1 minute ago, plissken said:

 

The UMC204HD has TRS (analog) inputs for stereo. 

 

I would encourage the OP to get a $30 BR drive for his PC and still output over USB. 

 

Fine. USB is by far the worst sounding and most difficult of all the digital audio interfaces. So, by all means encourage folks to do that.

Yes, the UMC204HD does have analog inputs (designed primarily for microphones) but the device does allow them to be padded down for line-level inputs. It also will supply 48 Volts phantom power for condenser microphones and has inputs/outputs to be inserted into a MIDI bus, but I'm at a loss to see how any of these fine features will benefit our OP. Look, Plisskin, We're never going to agree that the UMC204HD is a correct solution for a fellow audiophile who is just starting to dip his toes into the waters of digital audio. Why don't we just agree to disagree on this issue before it turns into a full-blown and ultimately useless feud? We agree on so many things, and I'd love to discuss them with you on another thread. Cheers

George

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Not sure what I was thinking, just ordered a TEAC UD301 DAC. And, am going to purchase a BMR or Kef LF50W during Thanksgiving. I will use this DAC with my current setup of MB pro and Audioengine 5 until I get Kef. If I choose to get BMR or another non-DAC speaker instead, I will keep the DAC and simply replace AE5. 

 

Hope it's worth $399.

 

BTW, did a A/B with AE5(aux) and AE2+($249, USB) , which has an integrated DAC, with a few sample aif files downloaded from HDTracks, I could not perceive much difference. Maybe, limited by speakers?

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1 hour ago, uyire said:

Not sure what I was thinking, just ordered a TEAC UD301 DAC. And, am going to purchase a BMR or Kef LF50W during Thanksgiving. I will use this DAC with my current setup of MB pro and Audioengine 5 until I get Kef. If I choose to get BMR or another non-DAC speaker instead, I will keep the DAC and simply replace AE5. 

 

Hope it's worth $399.

 

BTW, did a A/B with AE5(aux) and AE2+($249, USB) , which has an integrated DAC, with a few sample aif files downloaded from HDTracks, I could not perceive much difference. Maybe, limited by speakers?

 

You ordered a solid DAC. If it's up stream sibling is any indication (the 501 I had) then you'll be happy. It's a competent DAC. 

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1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

 

Fine. USB is by far the worst sounding and most difficult of all the digital audio interfaces. So, by all means encourage folks to do that.

Yes, the UMC204HD does have analog inputs (designed primarily for microphones) but the device does allow them to be padded down for line-level inputs. It also will supply 48 Volts phantom power for condenser microphones and has inputs/outputs to be inserted into a MIDI bus, but I'm at a loss to see how any of these fine features will benefit our OP. Look, Plisskin, We're never going to agree that the UMC204HD is a correct solution for a fellow audiophile who is just starting to dip his toes into the waters of digital audio. Why don't we just agree to disagree on this issue before it turns into a full-blown and ultimately useless feud? We agree on so many things, and I'd love to discuss them with you on another thread. Cheers

 

Why are you so hung up on extended feature sets that one can simply ignore? Also the front inputs are Mic inputs. However on the back there are two line level TRS inputs. 

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3 hours ago, uyire said:

Not sure what I was thinking, just ordered a TEAC UD301 DAC. And, am going to purchase a BMR or Kef LF50W during Thanksgiving. I will use this DAC with my current setup of MB pro and Audioengine 5 until I get Kef. If I choose to get BMR or another non-DAC speaker instead, I will keep the DAC and simply replace AE5. 

 

Hope it's worth $399.

 

BTW, did a A/B with AE5(aux) and AE2+($249, USB) , which has an integrated DAC, with a few sample aif files downloaded from HDTracks, I could not perceive much difference. Maybe, limited by speakers?

like my posts suggests, you will not tell much difference, if any, between a $100 and $1000 dac with your hardware...but the teac is as fine as any in your budget...enjoy....i would have stuck the money in speakers or amp....

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3 hours ago, gmgraves said:

 

I'm primarily an ESL guy (Martin-Logans and Sound-Lab with an occasional detour into Isodynamic land [Magnepan]) but with a frequency response as flat as the Philhamonitors' graphs show it, they have to sound spectacular.

Yeah- to each his own. I've heard some of the bigger Magnepans and thought they were awesome!! I'm a diyer and standard drivers are easier to work with, I'm also a little obsessed so I'm constantly changing my system up. I do have some of the big B&G planars that I'm gonna do something with soon though.

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18 hours ago, Mordikai said:

Yeah- to each his own. I've heard some of the bigger Magnepans and thought they were awesome!! I'm a diyer and standard drivers are easier to work with, I'm also a little obsessed so I'm constantly changing my system up. I do have some of the big B&G planars that I'm gonna do something with soon though.

 

I was a DIYer when I was a teen (had to be, no money!). and I went through the obsessive-compulsive stage where I constantly upgraded when I finished college and went out on my own. I don't do that so much anymore. I think the main reason is because I became an equipment reviewer. I'm always getting new stuff to play with. Sure it has to go back when the review period is over, but there's always something new coming in the front door to replace it. The best part is that I get the joy of playing with new equipment and I don't have to buy it (unless I find that I like it so much that I just have to have it -that doesn't happen that often). 

I've often wondered about those B&G panels ever sense I first saw them in the Parts Express catalog. They look as if they might make the basis for a really good dipole hybrid system.

 

For the last 10-or-so years, I've had a pair of Martin-Logan Vistas, and they are so good, that I have found no compunction to change them. They sound magnificent! Overall frequency response, dispersion, imaging, stereo soundstage, dynamic contrasts - everything. They just do it! I love that listeners can sit anywhere in the room and get a really good stereo image due to the curvature of the panels. I reviewed a flat-panel ESL system from Innersound (Roger Sanders former company) once,  and found that that they were strictly a one-listener system, and that listener had to sit with his/her head in a vice in order to remain in the "sweet spot" if you moved your head but one iota, the entire sound field collapsed. The highs went away, the imaging disappeared, etc. Sure when you were in the right spot, they sounded magnificent, but were totally impractical due to their dispersion, or rather lack of it.

George

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