Jump to content
IGNORED

Is Audiophiledom a confidence game?


crenca

Recommended Posts

50 minutes ago, marce said:

Pathetic, all we are doing is asking for data, that's how design works in the real world. Must admit some on here do act like my Granddaughter's sometimes... 

 

Then try asking for it in a Forum that doesn't have  Audiophile in it's name !

Audiophiles generally do not have Electronics training, or the ability to provide the data that some of you so desperately crave, nor do they have any interest in trying to provide it.

If the Objective members want Data , then get up off your backsides and try working with those "Subjectivity"oriented members who can  provide suitable material/ modified equipment/after market add-ons etc.

I have worked behind the scenes with several members from the Objective side, as well as directly with 2 Qualified E.Es from Sydney by way of direct demonstrations at the house of one of them.

No, I am NOT singling you out here, as you appear to have a more open mind to other possibilities than many of the other participants in this thread.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

Link to comment
39 minutes ago, marce said:

Testing would be nice and a DBL study is easy -- you guys could do it at a show, or a club meeting in a large city.

 

Several years ago, Chris organised a Symposium where the bulk of those present were able to hear clear differences between the same material saved on SSD vs. saved on  HDD.

They preferred that on the SSD.

IIRC, Chris thought that from the HDD sounded "muddy" in comparison.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

Link to comment
11 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

Several years ago, Chris organised a Symposium where the bulk of those present were able to hear clear differences between the same material saved on SSD vs. saved on  HDD.

They preferred that on the SSD.

IIRC, Chris thought that from the HDD sounded "muddy" in comparison.

Actually Ralf11 said that, I just quoted him.:D

Link to comment
Just now, marce said:

I am asking as are others for data from the manufacturers of these products, be they USB Hubs or cables, not your average audiophile

 

Unfortunately, you are one of the very few qualified E.E. members in this Forum who doesn't also demand this of Audiophiles. It's all too often a "put up, or shut up" scenario.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

Link to comment
4 minutes ago, marce said:

Actually Ralf11 said that, I just quoted him.:D

 Sorry. I was in too much of a hurry. I didn't mean to attribute that comment to you.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

Link to comment
17 hours ago, Allan F said:

..."Not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts can be counted."

-William Bruce Cameron

 

By way of example, there was an interesting panel discussion at RMAF which included four well known designers of audio equipment. John Curl noted how, in his experience in designing and building amplifiers, he found that different brands of resistors that measured the same did not sound the same. Some sounded great while others sounded awful. Notwithstanding his background in physics, he was unaware of any "technical explanation". His mantra is, "Trust your ears".

 

This is also what John Curl has told me. I've been to his apartment and seen his entire room of test equipment. He tells me we can only measure a small percentage of what we can hear and what we can measure is not even the most important. That's why after measuring, good audio designers listen by ear to select the best sounding parts that work well together and whose cost are within the projected retail price point of the component. Compromises have to be made in all components except for cost-no-object statement components. Minimizing the sonic consequences of cost compromises is the art of a great designer IMHO.

 

I'll look forward to hearing that RMAF panel discussion when it appears on YouTube.

I have dementia. I save all my posts in a text file I call Forums.  I do a search in that file to find out what I said or did in the past.

 

I still love music.

 

Teresa

Link to comment
12 hours ago, Teresa said:

Most DBTs fail to show any statistical differences between most everything, and the few that do, only show a very small statistical difference. Thus I put zero stock in DBTs. On the other hand long-term listening lets me hear any accumulative effects on sound quality that increase over time.

 

Teresa, I know this has been mentioned before, but it is worth repeating: DBTs do not preclude you from doing long term evaluations. What DBTs do is eliminate one very likely source of bias, confirmation bias. In my experience, blind tests do often produce significant statistical results... but not with USB or ethernet cables.

 

Link to comment
2 hours ago, marce said:

This is part of creating the aura and belief in audio... hand made, tuned by ear, we can't measure, etc. create and build the myths it helps sell hi end audio.

 

Nice summation of Audiophiledom as a confidence game.

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
2 hours ago, marce said:

This is part of creating the aura and belief in audio... hand made, tuned by ear, we can't measure, etc. create and build the myths it helps sell hi end audio.

 

Don't forget "designed, engineered, and built by renowned, respected and revered craftsmen utterly committed to the highest quality sound reproduction".:)

Link to comment
1 minute ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Don't forget "designed, engineered, and built by renowned, respected and revered craftsmen utterly committed to the highest quality sound reproduction".:)

 

And here is the deal, there is an certain amount of craft involved in building electronics.  It's just that in Audiophiledom, the culture absolutely refuses to limit it in any way - it has the status of a sacred cow who carries all expectations, unknowns, and finger licking goodness.  It becomes a moral issue when anyone dare challenges "what I hear", "in my system".  

 

As the OP says though, digital audio is a real thorn in the side of this radically subjectivised confidence game.  Turns out, there is balance and limits in the world that no amount of earned or unearned trust can hide.

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
6 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Nice summation of Audiophiledom as a confidence game.

I have been thinking about this,  the ultra top end is an exclusive club, some of the prices are the same as my house! So is it a confidence game, not really the participants don't mind, people make money, people are working and people are having fun. JC knows my views, I respect him greatly as an audio designer, but have debated the wilder side of the hobby with him for 10 years or so.

There is an element of money is no object and nothing is to far out, just add quantum or ground:D

Me I crave some ATC monitors or some Parasound Halo's JC1's with some bling speakers... Why not, but I wouldn't fork out for fancy cables. So no one is immune from the fun aspect, its just some of the wild claims...

Link to comment

Oh I can't afford either... and a divorce would ensue as I did broach the subject and compared the cost to our (i.e. I am paying) new kitchen, the wife in the kitchen told me in no uncertain terms what I could do with a large studio monitor, it was not pleasant. :)

Link to comment
11 minutes ago, marce said:

 

Me I crave some ATC monitors or some Parasound Halo's JC1's with some bling speakers... Why not, but I wouldn't fork out for fancy cables. So no one is immune from the fun aspect, its just some of the wild claims...

 

 

I hear ya.  Often in my dream ideal system I set up a pair of lower end Magico's, powered by a pair of JC1's, with a nice tube pre from ARC (though this get's traded for a SS pre about 1/2 the time) :)

 

Edit:  Oh, and cables are the thickest they sell at Home Depot :D

 

Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math!

Link to comment
1 minute ago, crenca said:

 

And here is the deal, there is an certain amount of craft involved in building electronics.  It's just that in Audiophiledom, the culture absolutely refuses to limit it in any way - it has the status of a sacred cow who carries all expectations, unknowns, and finger licking goodness.  It becomes a moral issue when anyone dare challenges "what I hear", "in my system".  

 

As the OP says though, digital audio is a real thorn in the side of this radically subjectivised confidence game.  Turns out, there is balance and limits in the world that no amount of earned or unearned trust can hide.

 

I entered audiophile forums when I started noodling with turntables after a 20+ year hiatus.  Back then, the dividing line between "real" audiophiles and Philistines was basically, "vinyl is the best, digital sucks".  In my experience, that line has now moved to those who respect the old school of audiophilia and those who challenge it.  It really has moved away from technology.  MQA is nothing more than a proxy for old school vs. impetuous upstarts, or a way to bring old school to new tech (DACs).  The "just listen" mantra from the pro-MQA camp kind of confirms this.

 

I agree there is craft involved.  But today's unbelievably awesome audio product is tomorrow's entry on Audiogon.  It's just gear in the end.

Link to comment
17 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

While one may think that "a difference was "somewhat probable/possible", your conclusion simply that "you are prone to find one" does not logically follow. To talk about "without realizing it" or "without even being conscious of it" is nothing more than speculation on your part, absent an evidentiary basis. To suggest that physical differences are inevitably going to influence what one hears is similarly speculative and, IMO, simply wrong. I readily agree that some or,  perhaps, many people may conform to your scenario but, IMO,  it does not apply to experienced listeners whose focus is limited to the fundamental issue.

 

For some reason, your insistence that you are able to override the deeply-ingrained human propensity to judge based on appearance, etc., reminded me of this old cartoon character who had a similar self-image:

 

Mug Retro Yogi Bear4.jpg

 

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

Link to comment
11 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

For some reason, your insistence that you are able to override the deeply-ingrained human propensity to judge based on appearance, etc., reminded me of this old cartoon character who had a similar self-image:

 

Coincidentally,  you and elsdude also bring to mind an image. :)

 

broken-record-765056.jpg

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...