Speed Racer Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 1 minute ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: I think Ralph is saying that - rejecting the null hypothesis ? That is not what his sentence says..... Link to comment
sandyk Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 50 minutes ago, marce said: Pathetic, all we are doing is asking for data, that's how design works in the real world. Must admit some on here do act like my Granddaughter's sometimes... Then try asking for it in a Forum that doesn't have Audiophile in it's name ! Audiophiles generally do not have Electronics training, or the ability to provide the data that some of you so desperately crave, nor do they have any interest in trying to provide it. If the Objective members want Data , then get up off your backsides and try working with those "Subjectivity"oriented members who can provide suitable material/ modified equipment/after market add-ons etc. I have worked behind the scenes with several members from the Objective side, as well as directly with 2 Qualified E.Es from Sydney by way of direct demonstrations at the house of one of them. No, I am NOT singling you out here, as you appear to have a more open mind to other possibilities than many of the other participants in this thread. Teresa 1 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
sandyk Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 39 minutes ago, marce said: Testing would be nice and a DBL study is easy -- you guys could do it at a show, or a club meeting in a large city. Several years ago, Chris organised a Symposium where the bulk of those present were able to hear clear differences between the same material saved on SSD vs. saved on HDD. They preferred that on the SSD. IIRC, Chris thought that from the HDD sounded "muddy" in comparison. How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Popular Post marce Posted October 13, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, sandyk said: Then try asking for it in a Forum that doesn't have Audiophile in it's name ! Audiophiles generally do not have Electronics training, or the ability to provide the data that some of you so desperately crave, nor do they have any interest in trying to provide it. If the Objective members want Data , then get up off your backsides and try working with those "Subjectivity"oriented members who can provide suitable material/ modified equipment/after market add-ons etc. I have worked behind the scenes with several members from the Objective side, as well as directly with 2 Qualified E.Es from Sydney by way of direct demonstrations at the house of one of them. No, I am NOT singling you out here, as you appear to have a more open mind to other possibilities than many of the other participants in this thread. I am asking as are others for data from the manufacturers of these products, be they USB Hubs or cables, not your average audiophile. Where your average audiophile comes up with some NEW thing, we try to determine what mechanism could be responsible for the sound changing, if it does, and whether the change is an improvement in ultimate fidelity or adding extra distortions making the sound fuller and more satisfying to many to listen to... That's all. lucretius, pkane2001 and Teresa 1 1 1 Link to comment
marce Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 11 minutes ago, sandyk said: Several years ago, Chris organised a Symposium where the bulk of those present were able to hear clear differences between the same material saved on SSD vs. saved on HDD. They preferred that on the SSD. IIRC, Chris thought that from the HDD sounded "muddy" in comparison. Actually Ralf11 said that, I just quoted him. Link to comment
sandyk Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Just now, marce said: I am asking as are others for data from the manufacturers of these products, be they USB Hubs or cables, not your average audiophile Unfortunately, you are one of the very few qualified E.E. members in this Forum who doesn't also demand this of Audiophiles. It's all too often a "put up, or shut up" scenario. Teresa 1 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
sandyk Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 4 minutes ago, marce said: Actually Ralf11 said that, I just quoted him. Sorry. I was in too much of a hurry. I didn't mean to attribute that comment to you. How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Popular Post Allan F Posted October 13, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 13, 2017 2 hours ago, firedog said: I don't think this is possible. Even if you have no knowledge of something your brains perception of sight, sense, and smell is pre programmed from previous experience. Your brain makes all sorts of assumptions and the interpretation is what you see, sense, and smell. It's one of the reasons illusions work. I respectfully disagree. For example, If I decide to compare the sound of two cables not knowing if I will hear a difference between them, and I have no initial expectation one way or another, how is that starting with a preconceived notion? OTOH, if we are talking about preferences, then what you say about bias from previous experience is valid. Teresa and Audiophile Neuroscience 2 "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
Popular Post esldude Posted October 13, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 13, 2017 12 minutes ago, Allan F said: I respectfully disagree. For example, If I decide to compare the sound of two cables not knowing if I will hear a difference between them, and I have no initial expectation one way or another, how is that starting with a preconceived notion? OTOH, if we are talking about preferences, then what you say about bias from previous experience is valid. If you didn't think a difference was somewhat probable/possible, you wouldn't engage in the exercise. I still remember the early days of the notion and the queer look some older people had at even the idea such a thing could be different. It was a copper wire! If you made connection the signal flows. So you already without realizing it are looking for a possible difference. And you are prone to find one. Without even being conscious of it you will notice if one is thicker or the insulation looks different. You'll be soaking up any little difference prior to listening for a difference. Which you wouldn't do otherwise. Now if you are asked into an area and asked to listen and report any difference, but you know not what they might be, why there might be a difference or see anything except an acoustically transparent curtain, you still are primed to report a difference when none exists a little above normal levels. You wouldn't know what any such difference was about however. If your choosing of different coincided almost every time with a wire change, then hey you might be onto something. mansr, sarvsa, kumakuma and 1 other 3 1 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Teresa Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 17 hours ago, Allan F said: ..."Not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts can be counted." -William Bruce Cameron By way of example, there was an interesting panel discussion at RMAF which included four well known designers of audio equipment. John Curl noted how, in his experience in designing and building amplifiers, he found that different brands of resistors that measured the same did not sound the same. Some sounded great while others sounded awful. Notwithstanding his background in physics, he was unaware of any "technical explanation". His mantra is, "Trust your ears". This is also what John Curl has told me. I've been to his apartment and seen his entire room of test equipment. He tells me we can only measure a small percentage of what we can hear and what we can measure is not even the most important. That's why after measuring, good audio designers listen by ear to select the best sounding parts that work well together and whose cost are within the projected retail price point of the component. Compromises have to be made in all components except for cost-no-object statement components. Minimizing the sonic consequences of cost compromises is the art of a great designer IMHO. I'll look forward to hearing that RMAF panel discussion when it appears on YouTube. I have dementia. I save all my posts in a text file I call Forums. I do a search in that file to find out what I said or did in the past. I still love music. Teresa Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 1 hour ago, esldude said: If you didn't think a difference was somewhat probable/possible, you wouldn't engage in the exercise. Assumption Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 19 minutes ago, Teresa said: John Curl has told me. I've been to his apartment and seen his entire room of test equipment. He tells me we can only measure a small percentage of what we can hear and what we can measure is not even the most important. An enlightened and legendary engineer! Teresa 1 Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 12 hours ago, Teresa said: Most DBTs fail to show any statistical differences between most everything, and the few that do, only show a very small statistical difference. Thus I put zero stock in DBTs. On the other hand long-term listening lets me hear any accumulative effects on sound quality that increase over time. Teresa, I know this has been mentioned before, but it is worth repeating: DBTs do not preclude you from doing long term evaluations. What DBTs do is eliminate one very likely source of bias, confirmation bias. In my experience, blind tests do often produce significant statistical results... but not with USB or ethernet cables. -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
Popular Post marce Posted October 13, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 13, 2017 2 hours ago, Teresa said: This is also what John Curl has told me. I've been to his apartment and seen his entire room of test equipment. He tells me we can only measure a small percentage of what we can hear and what we can measure is not even the most important. That's why after measuring, good audio designers listen by ear to select the best sounding parts that work well together and whose cost are within the projected retail price point of the component. Compromises have to be made in all components except for cost-no-object statement components. Minimizing the sonic consequences of cost compromises is the art of a great designer IMHO. I'll look forward to hearing that RMAF panel discussion when it appears on YouTube. This is part of creating the aura and belief in audio... hand made, tuned by ear, we can't measure, etc. create and build the myths it helps sell hi end audio. rayooo, sarvsa, lucretius and 4 others 4 3 Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted October 13, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 13, 2017 39 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: Teresa, I know this has been mentioned before, but it is worth repeating: DBTs do not preclude you from doing long term evaluations. What DBTs do is eliminate one very likely source of bias, confirmation bias. In my experience, blind tests do often produce significant statistical results... but not with USB or ethernet cables. Someone mentioned a proclivity of people to disregard studies that do not show the desired output. That's exactly what Teresa is doing. wgscott and sarvsa 2 Link to comment
crenca Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share Posted October 13, 2017 2 hours ago, marce said: This is part of creating the aura and belief in audio... hand made, tuned by ear, we can't measure, etc. create and build the myths it helps sell hi end audio. Nice summation of Audiophiledom as a confidence game. Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Samuel T Cogley Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 2 hours ago, marce said: This is part of creating the aura and belief in audio... hand made, tuned by ear, we can't measure, etc. create and build the myths it helps sell hi end audio. Don't forget "designed, engineered, and built by renowned, respected and revered craftsmen utterly committed to the highest quality sound reproduction". Link to comment
crenca Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share Posted October 13, 2017 1 minute ago, Samuel T Cogley said: Don't forget "designed, engineered, and built by renowned, respected and revered craftsmen utterly committed to the highest quality sound reproduction". And here is the deal, there is an certain amount of craft involved in building electronics. It's just that in Audiophiledom, the culture absolutely refuses to limit it in any way - it has the status of a sacred cow who carries all expectations, unknowns, and finger licking goodness. It becomes a moral issue when anyone dare challenges "what I hear", "in my system". As the OP says though, digital audio is a real thorn in the side of this radically subjectivised confidence game. Turns out, there is balance and limits in the world that no amount of earned or unearned trust can hide. Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
marce Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 6 minutes ago, crenca said: Nice summation of Audiophiledom as a confidence game. I have been thinking about this, the ultra top end is an exclusive club, some of the prices are the same as my house! So is it a confidence game, not really the participants don't mind, people make money, people are working and people are having fun. JC knows my views, I respect him greatly as an audio designer, but have debated the wilder side of the hobby with him for 10 years or so. There is an element of money is no object and nothing is to far out, just add quantum or ground Me I crave some ATC monitors or some Parasound Halo's JC1's with some bling speakers... Why not, but I wouldn't fork out for fancy cables. So no one is immune from the fun aspect, its just some of the wild claims... Link to comment
marce Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Oh I can't afford either... and a divorce would ensue as I did broach the subject and compared the cost to our (i.e. I am paying) new kitchen, the wife in the kitchen told me in no uncertain terms what I could do with a large studio monitor, it was not pleasant. Link to comment
crenca Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share Posted October 13, 2017 11 minutes ago, marce said: Me I crave some ATC monitors or some Parasound Halo's JC1's with some bling speakers... Why not, but I wouldn't fork out for fancy cables. So no one is immune from the fun aspect, its just some of the wild claims... I hear ya. Often in my dream ideal system I set up a pair of lower end Magico's, powered by a pair of JC1's, with a nice tube pre from ARC (though this get's traded for a SS pre about 1/2 the time) Edit: Oh, and cables are the thickest they sell at Home Depot Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Samuel T Cogley Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 1 minute ago, crenca said: And here is the deal, there is an certain amount of craft involved in building electronics. It's just that in Audiophiledom, the culture absolutely refuses to limit it in any way - it has the status of a sacred cow who carries all expectations, unknowns, and finger licking goodness. It becomes a moral issue when anyone dare challenges "what I hear", "in my system". As the OP says though, digital audio is a real thorn in the side of this radically subjectivised confidence game. Turns out, there is balance and limits in the world that no amount of earned or unearned trust can hide. I entered audiophile forums when I started noodling with turntables after a 20+ year hiatus. Back then, the dividing line between "real" audiophiles and Philistines was basically, "vinyl is the best, digital sucks". In my experience, that line has now moved to those who respect the old school of audiophilia and those who challenge it. It really has moved away from technology. MQA is nothing more than a proxy for old school vs. impetuous upstarts, or a way to bring old school to new tech (DACs). The "just listen" mantra from the pro-MQA camp kind of confirms this. I agree there is craft involved. But today's unbelievably awesome audio product is tomorrow's entry on Audiogon. It's just gear in the end. Link to comment
Popular Post Allan F Posted October 13, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 13, 2017 7 hours ago, esldude said: If you didn't think a difference was somewhat probable/possible, you wouldn't engage in the exercise. I still remember the early days of the notion and the queer look some older people had at even the idea such a thing could be different. It was a copper wire! If you made connection the signal flows. So you already without realizing it are looking for a possible difference. And you are prone to find one. Without even being conscious of it you will notice if one is thicker or the insulation looks different. You'll be soaking up any little difference prior to listening for a difference. Which you wouldn't do otherwise. While one may think that "a difference was "somewhat probable/possible", your conclusion simply that "you are prone to find one" does not logically follow. To talk about "without realizing it" or "without even being conscious of it" is nothing more than speculation on your part, absent an evidentiary basis. To suggest that physical differences are inevitably going to influence what one hears is similarly speculative and, IMO, simply wrong. I readily agree that some or, perhaps, many people may conform to your scenario but, IMO, it does not apply to experienced listeners whose focus is limited to the fundamental issue. Teresa and Audiophile Neuroscience 2 "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
kumakuma Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 17 minutes ago, Allan F said: While one may think that "a difference was "somewhat probable/possible", your conclusion simply that "you are prone to find one" does not logically follow. To talk about "without realizing it" or "without even being conscious of it" is nothing more than speculation on your part, absent an evidentiary basis. To suggest that physical differences are inevitably going to influence what one hears is similarly speculative and, IMO, simply wrong. I readily agree that some or, perhaps, many people may conform to your scenario but, IMO, it does not apply to experienced listeners whose focus is limited to the fundamental issue. For some reason, your insistence that you are able to override the deeply-ingrained human propensity to judge based on appearance, etc., reminded me of this old cartoon character who had a similar self-image: Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
Allan F Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 11 minutes ago, kumakuma said: For some reason, your insistence that you are able to override the deeply-ingrained human propensity to judge based on appearance, etc., reminded me of this old cartoon character who had a similar self-image: Coincidentally, you and elsdude also bring to mind an image. Teresa 1 "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now