Denafrips R2R DAC (plays 512 DSD) reviewed as giant killer

[luisma]

Sorry to jump in but I believe since he is a developer therefore he needs to create interops with different manufacturers equipment and be sure it is tested with HQP with no issues. So, you can call it lab equipment for testing that would be the main purpose for him, test a different manufacturer, possibly different DAC input interface etc.

[Reggy]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

I don't yet have a discrete DAC in my living room system, and Ares would fit on the small shelf there. I would like to have a discrete DAC in all of my systems. Currently I have Holo Audio Spring DAC L2 and T+A DAC8 DSD in the listening room and Holo Audio Cyan DSD on my office desk headphone system. Of course I have big bunch of other DACs too, but I like to have a discrete choice available in all systems.

 

But other than that, I'd like to measure/test it with HQPlayer just like all the other DACs too. Every additional DAC improves QA coverage...

 

Then again, having said that I think getting the Venus would be a benefit for the community because it hasn't been measured and it is in the same price range as the Schitt Yggydrasil, I haven't heard it but I believe it would be a much stronger upgrade over the Ares, and the Pontus. Unfortunately there is no coverage on that mid-tier product.

[Miska]

2 minutes ago, Reggy said:

Then again, having said that I think getting the Venus would be a benefit for the community because it hasn't been measured and it is in the same price range as the Schitt Yggydrasil, I haven't heard it but I believe it would be a much stronger upgrade over the Ares, and the Pontus. Unfortunately there is no coverage on that mid-tier product.

 

Fancier would be nicer, but at ~2400€ vs ~1400€ of Pontus there's quite a bit of price difference. Technically from Pontus to Terminator these seem to quite similar architecture, so I wonder if it would make any big difference in measurement results.

 

[Reggy]

16 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Fancier would be nicer, but at ~2400€ vs ~1400€ of Pontus there's quite a bit of price difference. Technically from Pontus to Terminator these seem to quite similar architecture, so I wonder if it would make any big difference in measurement results.

 

Pontus

Technical Highlights

• Proprietary R2R + DSD Architecture
• True balanced 24BIT R2R + 6BIT DSD (32 steps FIR Filters)
• Native DSD decoding with 0.01% precision resistors           
• Encapsulated Ultra Low Noise Power Supply
• Amanero USB Interface
• Ultra Low Jitter Digital Receiver AK4118
• Adaptive FIFO Buffer Reclocking

Venus

Technical Highlights

• Proprietary R2R + DSD Architecture
• True balanced 26BIT R2R + 6BIT DSD (32 steps FIR Filters)
• Native DSD decoding with 0.005% precision resistors           
• Encapsulated Premium Ultra Low Noise Power Supply
• Amanero USB Interface
• Ultra Low Jitter Digital Receiver AK4118
• CRYSTEK Flagship CCHD-957 Femto Clocks
• Adaptive FIFO Buffer Reclocking

           True from Ares to Pontus there are differences however there are also major differences from Pontus to Venus, while Terminator the differences are a bit minimal compared to Venus.

 

With the Venus there are the 0.005% precision resistors vs 0.01% for the Pontus and the added Femto clocks.Whether there are measurable differences, I suspect so.

 

There seems to be very noticeable grain with the USB connections on the Pontus less so than the Ares, and while the Pontus can be a step up for resolution over the Ares it has trouble competing with its counterparts at the same price level. I haven't listened to it but I can paraphrase what Torq said on SBAF:

 

Torq said: "On detail and resolution, I feel that the PONTUS, while meaningfully ahead of the ARES here, is not quite on the same level as something like Gungnir MB, the Spring DAC L1 and definitely not where the dac1541 exhibits its biggest strength. This is more noticeable using dynamic cans (Utopia, HD800S) than it was with planar units (LCD-4, Abyss, Abyss Phi). I wouldn’t go as far as to say that detail is being “smeared over”, but the unit is not resolving at the quite same level as its principal competition.  

 

Using the USB input resulted in immediately audible grain and some edginess/etch in the upper treble that was present, but very much less evident, via other inputs. This was more apparent in NOS mode. Using different USB source connections (direct USB 2.0 and/or USB 3.0, and the one off the Aries) resulted in different levels of audibility here … with the USB 3.0 connection (operating in USB 2.0 mode) being clearly the most audible.

Using my lonely, “have-it-for-curiosity-only” Jitterbug and/or my special USB power-isolating cables made no difference here."

 

Anyway the measurements have been done with both the Ares and the Pontus so that has been covered, its hard to know where the Venus stands in the ring at the sub $2800 level.

[Miska]

1 minute ago, Reggy said:

           True from Ares to Pontus there are differences however there are also major differences from Pontus to Venus, while Terminator the differences are a bit minimal compared to Venus.

 

With the Venus there are the 0.005% precision resistors vs 0.01% for the Pontus and the added Femto clocks.Whether there are measurable differences, I suspect so.

 

With the analog FIR type DSD DAC the resistor precision doesn't really matter much. And R2R beyond 20-bits certainly doesn't make any difference. The clocks could make a difference, but paying 1000€ extra to get 25€ clock component instead of let's say 10€ clock component is not something I'm ready to do. And usually clocks are spoiled so much more elsewhere that what I've measured those "femto" clocks don't necessarily make any real difference in actual output.

 

8 minutes ago, Reggy said:

Torq said: "On detail and resolution, I feel that the PONTUS, while meaningfully ahead of the ARES here, is not quite on the same level as something like Gungnir MB, the Spring DAC L1 and definitely not where the dac1541 exhibits its biggest strength. This is more noticeable using dynamic cans (Utopia, HD800S) than it was with planar units (LCD-4, Abyss, Abyss Phi). I wouldn’t go as far as to say that detail is being “smeared over”, but the unit is not resolving at the quite same level as its principal competition.

 

I wonder what was used to do oversampling in this case and whether it was comparing PCM or DSD side of the DAC.

 

 

[Reggy]

26 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

With the analog FIR type DSD DAC the resistor precision doesn't really matter much. And R2R beyond 20-bits certainly doesn't make any difference. The clocks could make a difference, but paying 1000€ extra to get 25€ clock component instead of let's say 10€ clock component is not something I'm ready to do. And usually clocks are spoiled so much more elsewhere that what I've measured those "femto" clocks don't necessarily make any real difference in actual output.

 

 

I wonder what was used to do oversampling in this case and whether it was comparing PCM or DSD side of the DAC.

 

 

I believe only PCM can be oversampled while DSD is fed native and kept at that native rate.

 

You can read here: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/life-after-yggdrasil-watering-the-ash.4036/page-39

But conclusion was

Spring DAC (DSD) > PONTUS (DSD) > General DACS w/ software DSD-to-PCM Conversion

And just looking at the PONTUS in isolation:
 

PONTUS (DSD) > PONTUS (OS) > PONTUS (NOS).

[Ben-M]

On 8/17/2018 at 9:56 AM, alvin1118 said:

Hello guys, there is no firm date yet. But I'm positive that it will be released by end of this year

Hi Alvin,

 

I was wondering if you have any updates on the DSSD512 firmware update on the Terminator yet? I've been holding off from purchasing directly because of this topic. I understand the Terminator is highly lauded at all formats and has great feedback with DSD256 content, but I'm still holding out for DSD512 capability via USB and I2s inputs. 

 

For now, I am trying to do a source shootout to find which one will be able to stream/render DSD512 over USB the best way. Unfortunately for DSD512 over I2s, there are only a couple options that I know of: Singxer SU-1 and Magna Hifi Mano Streamer. I wish there were others, but at least the SU-1 has a very respected track record. 

[tipunch]

Waouw, tweak of the week:

forum-hifi.fr

 

And thank you Roberto for report ;-)

 

[m.i.c.k.e.y]

John Darko's Review. His thoughts vs Yggdrasil w/ Analog 2, DirectStream and La Scala.   

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tGmD6j8fC0

[Milt99]

Excellent, thoughtfully subjective comparison review.

Far better than the "impressions" posted on the Lavorgna etc., version of Audiostream.

Seriously if I hadn't invested in 2 Oppo-205s & a 203 I would've sprung for the Terminator.

Thanks

[rickca]

Yeah I liked the review as well.  I didn't expect to like it because I don't enjoy his writing style.

[Milt99]

6 minutes ago, rickca said:

Yeah I liked the review as well.  I didn't expect to like it because I don't enjoy his writing style.

I found his youtube video to very real & revealing in delivery.

Comparatively modest for a reviewer but excellent gear.

More like what people in the real world might have.

I could listen to music & have drinks with this guy.

[juanitox]

On 8/28/2018 at 6:58 PM, Miska said:

 

With the analog FIR type DSD DAC the resistor precision doesn't really matter much. And R2R beyond 20-bits certainly doesn't make any difference. The clocks could make a difference, but paying 1000€ extra to get 25€ clock component instead of let's say 10€ clock component is not something I'm ready to do. And usually clocks are spoiled so much more elsewhere that what I've measured those "femto" clocks don't necessarily make any real difference in actual output.

 

 

I wonder what was used to do oversampling in this case and whether it was comparing PCM or DSD side of the DAC.

 

 

+1   1000$ for Femto clock ,  Russian MICA bypass capacitor ( instead of polyester) , and .005 vs .01% resistors

the Pointus also use others filter bank capacitors but they are Nichicon FineGold  and they are very also good for this task..

i think at this price the POINTUS is the real deal..

but perhaps they are other hidden differences between the two.

[Cortes]

17 hours ago, m.i.c.k.e.y said:

John Darko's Review. His thoughts vs Yggdrasil w/ Analog 2, DirectStream and La Scala.   

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tGmD6j8fC0

 

thx, good link. However,  I consider the perceived 'value' of the Denafrips a joke. If this thing stops working, and that happens with DACs from time to time, the price of shipping+import duties, delay and prayers to the distributor  to continue in business by then,  will put the final price in the level or above the competition. That, even without considering that the resell value can be near zero in a few years in a product without track record. 

[luisma]

I am an owner of a Terminator and I don't agree with you on the price shipping +import duties based on my personal experience.

 

I'm in the US and my Terminator came in very fast less than a week from ordering, I had no duties to pay or anything else. After 2 weeks or so something got loose on the inside, Vinshine Audio has a repair center in the US in Atlanta and they took care of the shipping both ways with FEDEX pickup white glove service. I believe that has a lot to say about the company and warranty policies and the product has warranty of course which I believe they have no reason not to honor been in the business for quite some time already, it will be stupid of them with the sales they have not to provide good service.

 

It is true after 1 year if you need to send the product for warranty repairs then you will have to pay for shipping (which in the US is nothing major) you don't have to ship back to Asia, I personally believe that's totally acceptable and negligible based on the high quality product  you are getting.

 

This is just my opinion of course, yours can be different but I did have an actual real good service experience and I am very satisfied with the product and Vinshine Audio

 

 

 

[luisma]

And I am just a customer and for what is worth I'm not related in any way to Denafrips or Vinshine Audio.

[Ben-M]

On 9/2/2018 at 1:37 AM, Ben-M said:

Hi Alvin,

 

I was wondering if you have any updates on the DSSD512 firmware update on the Terminator yet? I've been holding off from purchasing directly because of this topic. I understand the Terminator is highly lauded at all formats and has great feedback with DSD256 content, but I'm still holding out for DSD512 capability via USB and I2s inputs. 

 

For now, I am trying to do a source shootout to find which one will be able to stream/render DSD512 over USB the best way. Unfortunately for DSD512 over I2s, there are only a couple options that I know of: Singxer SU-1 and Magna Hifi Mano Streamer. I wish there were others, but at least the SU-1 has a very respected track record. 

@alvin1118

Any updates as per the last time I asked, nearly 2 months ago?

[Triplefun]

20 minutes ago, Ben-M said:

@alvin1118

Any updates as per the last time I asked, nearly 2 months ago?

Any DAC with an xmos xu 208 USB interface, such as that used by the singxer su-1 and topping d50, will support native dsd512 over USB. FYI, the matrix x-sabre pro supports native dsd1024 over USB. But these are all delta sigma and not really in the same league as the denafrips.

 

You might also be interested in the holo audio spring DAC also mentioned in this forum and capable of dsd512.

[smodtactical]

Do you guys find the terminator or any of the other R2R dacs sound better when leaving it on versus putting it in standby mode when not using it ?

[Ben-M]

On 10/19/2018 at 4:19 PM, Triplefun said:

Any DAC with an xmos xu 208 USB interface, such as that used by the singxer su-1 and topping d50, will support native dsd512 over USB. FYI, the matrix x-sabre pro supports native dsd1024 over USB. But these are all delta sigma and not really in the same league as the denafrips.

 

You might also be interested in the holo audio spring DAC also mentioned in this forum and capable of dsd512.

Thanks for the heads up. My T+A DAC 8 DSD already does DSD512 and I've been very impressed with is vs. DSD256. 

 

DSD512 is not currently supported on the Terminator, but it was in development as of ~6 months ago. I'm hoping to hear an update as that's currently the limiting factor in my purchase of this DAC. I know that might sound unreasonable, but I've got to slow my roll somehow...

[alvin1118]

Hello guys,

 

My apologies for the delay. I may have good news soon. (hint?)

 

Alvin w/ ♥️

[Ben-M]

6 hours ago, alvin1118 said:

Hello guys,

 

My apologies for the delay. I may have good news soon. (hint?)

 

Alvin w/ ♥️

Thanks a lot for replying, Alvin. 

 

I'm not sure what to expect, but I've been crossing my fingers for months now and I'm hoping to hear some great news. I hope you can expand on your news soon ?

[tboooe]

7 hours ago, alvin1118 said:

Hello guys,

 

My apologies for the delay. I may have good news soon. (hint?)

 

Alvin w/ ♥️

Good news = bad news for my wallet.  I've been waiting for DSD512 support before I buy this DAC.

[luisma]

7 hours ago, alvin1118 said:

Hello guys,

 

My apologies for the delay. I may have good news soon. (hint?)

 

Alvin w/ ♥️

Alvin should I start packing my Termy and send it over to Mike ?

 

[luisma]

On 10/21/2018 at 3:29 AM, alvin1118 said:

My apologies for the delay. I may have good news soon. (hint?)

Alvin? good or bad news?

On a separate note someone asked about leaving the DAC ON all the time, how does that affects the life of the product? this is all digital I presume the consumption will be nothing and since there are no fans ... Can you provide some advice?