Denafrips R2R DAC (plays 512 DSD) reviewed as giant killer

[luisma]

On 3/15/2018 at 5:26 AM, roberto2 said:

 

I have made a test of the USB input using two 20cm Curious Cables coming from my Sotm sms-200 Ultra and a Sotm tx-usbhub in between powered by a Sotm sps-500. The USB input is very good and adding my tweaked Singxer makes a little but noticeable improvement in AES or i2s. The difference between HDMI and AES does not seem to me so great. 

But may be someone else would find it bigger in another context. 

 

Anyway the Terminator is the first DAC that I own that has an USB input of this quality. All my previous DACs (Mytek 192, Dangerous Source, Audio-gd Master 7) were clearly improved by an USB/AES converter. With the Terminator the difference is not so big. 

So basically due to the quality of the inputs it doesn't matter if you use USB or I2S or AES as inputs and the SQ difference should not be that much, and yes ideally you would like to go with I2S whenever possible correct?

 

How about the output, will the balanced output to an amp will be preferred over the unbalanced RCA one?

 

 

[luisma]

2 minutes ago, lmitche said:

When they say there is little dsd512 source material, they obviously missed the point of hqplayer upsampling. Has anyone tried to educate them?

I haven't been able to judge by myself yet, how much difference there is of upsampling to 256 vs 512? 

 

[luisma]

Just now, luisma said:

I haven't been able to judge by myself yet, how much difference there is of upsampling to 256 vs 512? 

 

And why some people swear by pcm and are not interested in dsd at all? 

 

Not trying to argue just learning here, I'm a noob to many of these topics 

[luisma]

32 minutes ago, k6davis said:

 

There are many people who feel that leaving the (usually PCM) data stream unaltered or "bit perfect" is the best way to go. The reality is that nearly every DAC out there (excluding NOS - "non oversampling" DACs) alter the "bit perfect" PCM stream fed to them into a SDM/DSD-like stream internally prior to conversion to analog. So the question is less if DSD conversion should be done, but how and where it should be done. Upsampling to DSD in the server offers far more power, flexibility and upgradability than what you can find in most DACs. 

 

 

 

 

There are certainly some DACs that sound far better at 512 than at lower rates - the T+A DAC 8 DSD is an example. And it could very well be that the Terminator would sound better at 512 than at 256. Hopefully one day, we can find out. But any DAC needs to be looked at as whole.

 

There is such a thing as "DAC A" that's limited to 256 that sounds better than "DAC B" at 512.

 

There are so many more factors involved in the design of a DAC. That is especially true of a unit that is not designed around a standard DAC chip, such as the Terminator, and also what I currently own, a Lampizator L4 DSD Only DAC/Pre. Hearing people's excitement about something like DSD512 can lead to FOMO (fear of missing out), but I've learned from experience that while the bitrate matters, it's only part of the story.

I believe your comment and explanation makes perfect sense, there is much more than just the rendering capabilities and  Denafrips even though delaying the release of the firmware I rather have them to get it right than providing a half a.. solution. I can perfectly enjoy music at PCM or DSD256 with no problems, I have a Pro-ject S2 which is 10 times cheaper and does MQA and DSD512 which I'm going to compare directly with the Termy with the same tracks and config. By the way that is a surprisingly good DAC for the value although I'm sure it won't compare in detail. I have it powered by an Uptone LPS1.2 which really changes the sound of the DAC.

Thank you

[luisma]

On a different note, customs contacted me upon receiving the Terminator, they were very concerned what a "DAC Terminator" was, I hope they weren't thinking on a killing machine from the future 

[luisma]

You can guess the country easily

 

 

[luisma]

I'm sorry, US

[luisma]

Hold that thought

 

I'll be back

 

[luisma]

Anyone using the terminator with bare USB connection? Not through a singer or other streamer. Audirvana PC beta clicking noises and failures, jriver issues with dop, allo bridge fails too maybe because the amanero drivers only on windows I believe I will be purchasing roon + hqp as it seems to be the best supported and tested config. Any feedback on working configurations will be greatly helpful 

[luisma]

Providing an update on my Terminator testing.

 

Purchased Roon, directly connected via USB to the DAC. No issues playing PCM or DSD at all. Using Roon's sample rate conversion. PCM perfect averages 19% CPU usage, DSD averages 31%, SQ wise cannot tell for sure, it sounds very similar to me. No buffering issues, no clicking, continuous perfect play. Question here, internally the DAC should be doing upsampling if what's being fed is not already upsampled, is that an accurate statement?

 

I believe my problems were related to be using a beta version of A+ and in JRiver the DoP option creates issues.

 

My next testing, Roon --> Allo as Roon Endpoint --> TERMY

 

[luisma]

1 hour ago, rothosand said:

To play DSD on the Terminator with JRiver, you mustn't use the DoP mode (DSD over PCM), but the Native DSD mode (DSD data directly passed to the DAC, without being packed in a PCM container). Otherwise, DSD256 won't play on the Terminator.

 

My only issue with the Terminator and JRiver (I didn't try another soft) is when I switch from a PCM signal that is a multiple of 48kHz (24/48, 24/96 or 24/192) to a DXD signal (PCM 24/352.8) : I hear a hissing noise instead of the music. No issue however when I switch to a lower res 44.1 kHz multiple (24/44, 24/88 or 24/176).

Thank you for the answers.

 

I did some testing last night with the Allo Bridge using their DAC 1.1 driver and it worked for a while but after a few songs Roon stops seeing the bridge and I had to power cycle it. I am planning to do some more testing today with the DAC 1.0 driver. I know it is more expensive but the quality and consistency Roon offers with the connection to the DAC and the upsampling options is very good

[luisma]

Just posted on the Allo Bridge discussion

The DAC is working as expected, connected to Roon directly works with no issues, the Allo Bridge is getting overloaded or something as it seems is failing with upsampling from Roon, still have to find out what's happening. Maybe I can find the right settings as the sound with the bridge is different than directly USB connected and I would like to do an A/B comparison and provide feedback. 

[luisma]

Thank you Alvin, folks at Allo are trying to help me out troubleshooting, this has nothing to do with the Terminator DAC, it is an issue upsampling from Roon to Allo and there are many things that can be tweaked.

 

 

[luisma]

Someone provided advice on the Roon forums, switching the included USB to Ethernet adapter from the USB3 to the USB2 port on the Allo Bridge seems have fixed my specific problem. I will still diagnose and troubleshoot the issue with Allo which are kindly helping me to determine what could be wrong with the USB3 connection and Roon.

 

In case you would like to see the entire response

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/allo-usbridge-board/27487/869?u=zbyte

 

[luisma]

Had some time to test audio today, finally properly listening the terminator on my system. Nuc - USB cable - terminator - balanced cable - Yamaha as2100 Amp. I removed the allo bridge from the mix, for some reason I prefer the USB direct connection. With my project S2 I preferred the allo bridge. I guess the USB input on the terminator guarantees a better SQ when directly connected. I'm using exclusively NOS for all testing. 

Dsp up sampling from roon sounded good, I added HQP into the mix and let roon to play with no filters, better SQ with HQP, Roon does a pretty good job considering things but HQP is just a step above. 

Now pcm 384 VS dsd 256, well in my system (and I understand some other systems may be different) it sounds better to me with pcm, now my Nuc is doing dsd with the poly sinc shrt mp 2s due to cpu limitations so maybe going with better specs and better filter (sorry Jussi, oversampling) dsd may sound better. I will do some testing tomorrow with NOS off which I don't know how it will sound which brings a question. 

With NOS in theory termy won't upsample and should play native input whichever this may be. When in OS mode will it still oversample to max settings even if content fed is already at max rate dsd or pcm? Or will it oversample to meet the max settings? For example dsd64 will oversample to dsd256 or pcm 192 will be upsample to 384, and pcm384 or dsd256 will it be passed through transparently? 

@alvin1118 do you know?

Thanks 

[luisma]

May I ask, are you up sampling or playing native content? I think the Sq it depends a lot on these factors

 

 

[luisma]

8 hours ago, coach65 said:

Up sampling. All of my cd's are on a hard drive and I do stream Spotify.

 

if you are upsampling your content then I don't think NOS or OS would make any difference, I believe the DAC will leave it as is if it comes already at max settings therefore no matter the position of the button the DAC will be in NOS mode

 

Again I'm not sure of this maybe Alvin can jump in and provide some more info

[luisma]

Thank you Alvin, your answer does help, and that's what I thought, if you are feeding upsampled content at Max settings it will let it pass transparently, therefore the NOS / OS is irrelevant.

 

And I guess if the content comes at PCM 192 or DSD 64 and it is in OS mode then it will indeed upsample to the max settings

 

[luisma]

@alvin1118 Do you have any updates on the DSD512 update for the terminator? is this something we can expect to see soon or is it still in beta? would it be a DIY type of thing?

Thanks

 

[luisma]

Without creating much of a stir which firmware are you guys using on your terminators? using CPLD for 1080 and 1099c

 

What's exactly the CPLD option?

 

But there is 2003be with 512 support (of course the DSP won't support it) but can it be applied regardless as long as you respect the DSD256 limit?

 

And there is a 2001 as well

 

 

[luisma]

33 minutes ago, barrows said:

No, Alvin mentioned that the Ares decodes native DSD, 768 kHz would not be native DSD.  Like other Denafrips DACs the Ares has both an R2R ladder for PCM conversion and a separate, discrete, DSD conversion stage (likely a discrete FIR filter similar to Jussi's DSC design).  Now since Denafrips does not tell all one does not know if their oversampler also oversamples DSD, but because this DSC style conversion for works better with DSD 4 and DSD 8, it is likely that the Denafrips oversamples DSD to at least DSD 4.

I think it was already confirmed like you said that when not using NOS the dac will upsample to 384 or dsdx4 

[luisma]

Sorry to jump in but I believe since he is a developer therefore he needs to create interops with different manufacturers equipment and be sure it is tested with HQP with no issues. So, you can call it lab equipment for testing that would be the main purpose for him, test a different manufacturer, possibly different DAC input interface etc.

[luisma]

I am an owner of a Terminator and I don't agree with you on the price shipping +import duties based on my personal experience.

 

I'm in the US and my Terminator came in very fast less than a week from ordering, I had no duties to pay or anything else. After 2 weeks or so something got loose on the inside, Vinshine Audio has a repair center in the US in Atlanta and they took care of the shipping both ways with FEDEX pickup white glove service. I believe that has a lot to say about the company and warranty policies and the product has warranty of course which I believe they have no reason not to honor been in the business for quite some time already, it will be stupid of them with the sales they have not to provide good service.

 

It is true after 1 year if you need to send the product for warranty repairs then you will have to pay for shipping (which in the US is nothing major) you don't have to ship back to Asia, I personally believe that's totally acceptable and negligible based on the high quality product  you are getting.

 

This is just my opinion of course, yours can be different but I did have an actual real good service experience and I am very satisfied with the product and Vinshine Audio

 

 

 

[luisma]

And I am just a customer and for what is worth I'm not related in any way to Denafrips or Vinshine Audio.

[luisma]

7 hours ago, alvin1118 said:

Hello guys,

 

My apologies for the delay. I may have good news soon. (hint?)

 

Alvin w/ ♥️

Alvin should I start packing my Termy and send it over to Mike ?