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SMPS and grounding


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5 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

 

 

It sounds like cat 6a is ok to use, and may even be better because of the shielding as long as the shield is floating.  Is this accurate?

 

A floating shield is not recommended I think. The shield has to act like a Faraday Cage. Hence the JSSG.

 

 

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8 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

You could purchase two LPS-1's and hook their outputs up in series, with one set to 7V and the other to 5V to obtain 12V.

 

Yes, if the Black Friday offers 2 for 1.....

Or just use a boost converter ?

 

Or modify the internal regulator of those switches. I’m sure someone will do one day, along with a possible clock upgrade. 

 

Hopefully Uptone one day will release an audiophile switch. Maybe even with fiber interface....

 

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Sure glad I'm safely in the USB only universe.  What a mess Ethernet is.

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14)  (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i  (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer)

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51 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Sure glad I'm safely in the USB only universe.  What a mess Ethernet is.

I also love USB for simplicity, but how do you control your jriver? Do you have a screen and a keyboard/mouse attached?

In my case, I need the network at least for Jremote.

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15 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

Each Ethernet channel needs what is called the "magnetics package", this consists of a bunch of transformers and common mode chokes. You can either find these built into an RJ-45 jack or as a separate shielded box and a cheap jack with no magnetics is used. These magnetics boxes come in singles or duals.

 

The switches always use the separate magnetics boxes, they use duals as much as possible. For example an 8 port switch will have 4 dual boxes, a 5 port switch will have 2 duals and 1 single.

 

What seems to happen is that leakage will pass from channel to channel if the two channels use the same dual box. BUT (if the PS is grounded) the leakage gets blocked if the channels are on different boxes.

 

Thus for a common configuration where channels 1,2 are on the same box and 2,3 are on the same box etc, if one cable is on channel 1 you will not block leakage if the other cable is on channel 2, but you WILL get blockage if the other cable is on channel 3. IF one cable is on channel 2 and the other is on channel 3 you WILL get blockage because those two channels are on different magnetics boxes.

 

So the actual rule is somewhat complex, so to make it simpler, just make sure the cable going into the audio system has no other cable in a channel right next to it and you are guaranteed to be good. This guarantees that all other connections are on a different magnetics box from the one going to your audio system. The easiest way to do this is to have the cable going to the audio system on one end or the other on the switch, skip one jack, then you can use all the others for connections to the rest of your system.

 

John S.

Received my FS105 yesterday from B&H in NY and thankfully it was a V3.  Opened the hood to find out how the 2/2/1 boxes indicated by John were wired so that I could optimize IN/OUT connections.  From left to right I found the internal boxes as follows:  [1 2] [3 4] [5]   I  put IN from router to 5, using the other 2 for my PC OUTs with the server PC furthest from the input on [1 2].   Power supply and grounding are both plugged into adjacent outlets on a power strip figuring that pairs may actually be duplexes internally.

 

Not that I have that many ethernet connections but am using Blue Jeans UTP 6a cables which can be ordered in assortment of flavors which assists ID.

 

May have minimal inpact on SQ of system since audio is galvanically isolated with Adnaco Glass/USB system but, regardless, this all is a  "feel good" inexpensive tweak.

 

Glad I joined this thread!  Thanks.

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Got my $10 eBay FS105 (v3) last night. It’s powered by a cheap Y split with the GS108 preceding it from an El Cheapo LPS. Cables in ports as specified. Sounds really good, though only marginally better than the GS108 alone with other traffic on it. Piano and cymbals really sound like such - no glare or artifacts. 

 

I do go from the FS105 with a generic Cat6 cable into a pair of FMC’s, and then with a Melcord Opal UTP cable into the rendu. Tried direct bypassing the FMC’s and while the sound signature overall didn’t change much there was just a bit of hash and sibilance to the top end. Same goes for unplugging the ground shunt for the LPS-1 and downstream FMC both powered by the HDPLEX.

 

Anyway, I’m at the set and forget stage now. The ground shunts are here to stay. Next up 1.4 board upgrade for the rendu, and tweaks needed on the analog side of things. 

SERVER CLOSET (in office directly below living room stereo):NUC 7i5BNH with Roon ROCK (ZeroZone 12V on the NUC)>Cisco 2690L-16PS switch>Sonore opticalModule (Uptone LPS 1.2)>

LIVING ROOM: Sonore opticalRendu Roon version (Sonore Power Supply)> Shunyata Venom USB>Naim DAC V1>Witchhat DIN>Naim NAP 160 Bolt Down>Chord Rumor 2>Audio Physic Compact Classics. OFFICE: opticalModule> Sonore microRendu 1.4> Matrix Mini-i Pro 3> Naim NAP 110>NACA5>KEF Ls50's. BJC 6a and Ghent Catsnake 6a JSSG ethernet; AC cables: Shunyata Venom NR V-10; Audience Forte F3; Ice Age copper/copper; Sean Jacobs CHC PowerBlack, Moon Audio DIN>RCA, USB A>C. Isolation: Herbie's Audio Lab. 

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On 10/31/2017 at 12:56 PM, JohnSwenson said:

This and every other article on Ethernet shielding is talking about the differential signal between the two wires in the pair. Leakage is common mode, it is the same on both wires (NOT differential) thus the twistedness does not matter. Because it is common mode noise the twisted pair just looks like a weirdly shaped single conductor and makes a nice antenna.

 

I do NOT recommend shielded Ethernet in most cases, leakage will go through the shield, bypassing all things I have written about blocking it, none of that works if you have connected shields.

 

That is why I recommend using UTP and putting one of the grounded named swithces some distance away from the audio system, there will be nothing on the cable to radiate.

 

John S.

 

 

18 hours ago, R1200CL said:

 

A floating shield is not recommended I think. The shield has to act like a Faraday Cage. Hence the JSSG.

 

 

 

In John's post linked above he states a connected shield will bypass the shunt.

 

In another post of John's linked above he said this: "If there is not such a path the only shielding that is going to happen is for high frequencies due to capacitance involved with the shield."

 

So, putting the two together the BlueJeans cat 6a with floating shield will not bypass the shunt.  Because it does have a floating shield it will still shield some high frequencies.

 

The only problem with this approach that I can see is that the shielding may cause internal crosstalk since alien crosstalk may not be an issue.  If it could be an issue, or there's a need to shield from external sources then this could be a better solution than UTP.

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On 10/31/2017 at 8:28 PM, JohnSwenson said:

The GS105V2 is old enough that I can't make a guess as to whether it will block external leakage when grounded. I have tested current and previous FS and current GS, these have the proper behavior.

 

That is not enough of a sample to guess well on significantly older versions. I have seen radically different behavior between two versions from other companies, this makes me leery about common behavior between a V5 and a V2.

 

John S.

Hi, so I’m just digging out a bunch of my unused gear and I have a GS108E V2 (the managed “E” version) and a GS105 V2 and a GS105 V4. 

Seems like from this thread that I should only trust the GS105 V4 and the two older V2’s (108E and 105), I should not use ?? 

Also, If I’m understanding this correctly, if I shunt and use that one V4 that I do have and connect only the BJC Cat 6a to my Aurender N100H, I would be okay anyhow? 

I do also have an Amazon Firebox that has LAN cable that is connected into my Pre/Pro. 

Would it be okay to also connect the Amazin Firebox into that one V4 or shall I dedicate one to only the Aurender and buy another newer V 4/5 for all my other devices? 

As of now, only the Aurender and the Amazon Firebox are both connected to my audio system that also have a LAN cable. However, I recently purchased a Synology NAS and may soon start using that to play albums stored on it via the Aurender N100H also, so should I also connect the Synology NAS to the shunted GS105 V4? 

Thanks ! 

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Just picked up a Netgear GS105v5.

 

On a bridged macmini to ultrarendu setup -

— I should connect the macmini ethernet out to the Netgear switch & then into the rendu, & connect the modem-router into the macmini thunderbolt-ethernet adaptor?

 

ie. switch is best between macmini & rendu, rather than between router & macmini?

macmini M1>ethernet / elgar iso tran(2.5kVa, .0005pfd)>consonance pw-3 boards>ghent ethernet(et linkway cat8 jssg360)>etherRegen(js-2)>ghent ethernet(et linkway cat8 jssg360) >ultraRendu (clones lpsu>lps1.2)>curious regen link>rme adi-2 dac(js-2)>cawsey cables>naquadria sp2 passive pre> 1.naquadria lucien mkII.5 power>elac fs249be + elac 4pi plus.2> 2.perreaux9000b(mods)>2x naquadria 12” passive subs.

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8 hours ago, BigGuy said:

regardless, this all is a  "feel good" inexpensive tweak.

 

That's a nice way to put it! I said something similar earlier - it's more about doing things a little more correctly than expecting earth shaking improvements.

 

Of course if someone has a tremendous amount of leakage current coming through their DAC and this DAC is sensitive to this stuff, maybe the improvements could be significant for them.

 

As you say, it's an inexpensive tweak to implement anyway.

 

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Yes, thought so - thanks for confirmation.

/& I now need to get JS’s shunt-gear sorted. At the moment this switch is the only smps in use.

 

Is that recommendation re shunting a lps applicable to all of them in an audio setup?

macmini M1>ethernet / elgar iso tran(2.5kVa, .0005pfd)>consonance pw-3 boards>ghent ethernet(et linkway cat8 jssg360)>etherRegen(js-2)>ghent ethernet(et linkway cat8 jssg360) >ultraRendu (clones lpsu>lps1.2)>curious regen link>rme adi-2 dac(js-2)>cawsey cables>naquadria sp2 passive pre> 1.naquadria lucien mkII.5 power>elac fs249be + elac 4pi plus.2> 2.perreaux9000b(mods)>2x naquadria 12” passive subs.

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Hi @JohnSwenson

 

I know your research is still on-going on all this stuff and will take some amount of time.

 

But given the fact that FMC's aren't that much more expensive than the network switches you've recommended, I wonder why this isn't the preferred option for the most downstream ethernet point, given leakage currents would be fully blocked by the optical isolation?

 

We could still use your SMS grounding method on the FMC SMPS's.

 

Would be interested in your preliminary thoughts, if that's possible.

 

Cheers! Sean.

 

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Got to thinking about this while hooking up the FS105 y'day...

 

We have treated the noise generated by SMPS upstream of our computers using Netgear switches and grounding umbilicals and the noise generated by SMPS downstream between computer and DAC.

 

What about the noise generated by SMPS inside the computer feeding USB busses, aftermarket cards by SoTM and Adnaco, etc.?

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1 minute ago, BigGuy said:

Got to thinking about this while hooking up the FS105 y'day...

 

We have treated the noise generated by SMPS upstream of our computers using Netgear switches and grounding umbilicals and the noise generated by SMPS downstream between computer and DAC.

 

What about the noise generated by SMPS inside the computer feeding USB busses, aftermarket cards by SoTM and Adnaco, etc.?

 

CA got started by a series of articles that covered building a PC for dedicated audio use. In time most of these builds involved using system boards that could be run by an external DC linear power supply. There are some companies that sell music servers preconfigured. Also HDPlex makes great cases and LPSs for this purpose. So one big key to an electrically quiet PC is running it from an LPS. Add-on cards that allow for external powering also can help.


"Don't Believe Everything You Think"

System

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38 minutes ago, mourip said:

 

CA got started by a series of articles that covered building a PC for dedicated audio use. In time most of these builds involved using system boards that could be run by an external DC linear power supply. There are some companies that sell music servers preconfigured. Also HDPlex makes great cases and LPSs for this purpose. So one big key to an electrically quiet PC is running it from an LPS. Add-on cards that allow for external powering also can help.

Definitely not interested in a custom or DIY build.  Have a Dell 3010 Pro machine in service as music server nor modifying it with an internal LPS unless that is something  "the average homeowner" can do.  ;-)  ( I DO have some electronic build skills.)

 

Would be interested in further details if only to be able to connect a grounding umbilical to the cable feeding my Adnaco board

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10 hours ago, Em2016 said:

Hi @JohnSwenson

 

I know your research is still on-going on all this stuff and will take some amount of time.

 

But given the fact that FMC's aren't that much more expensive than the network switches you've recommended, I wonder why this isn't the preferred option for the most downstream ethernet point, given leakage currents would be fully blocked by the optical isolation?

 

We could still use your SMS grounding method on the FMC SMPS's.

 

Would be interested in your preliminary thoughts, if that's possible.

 

Cheers! Sean.

 

 

I’ve left my TP-Link 10/100 FMC’s in, on both my main system (microRendu 1.3 with USBCP, LPS-1, into Naim DAC V1) and office (naim UnitiQute). I can hear a difference with or without, and prefer with. The expense is not that big. For how basic my system is - the V1 feeds a rebuilt vintage Naim 110 amp into Rega RX3 speakers - it sounds much bigger for a lot less than one might think. The ground shunt trick has been transformative for my system - I did EVERYTHING, including Vortexbox server, Roku’s nearby, FMC’s, two GS108 switches (one directly before office system), an FS105 directly before FMC’s to rendu, the HDPLEX to LPS-1 connection, the iFi SPDIF purifier into the V1 for the TV connection, (also HDPLEX). Switch upstairs not done yet (Roku is), but hey, I’m not obsessing about it. :)

 

Anyway, even if all of this has no direct effect on the sound quality, things should be grounded, right? It’s a cheap tweak, fun to do, and will only do good (big no no on double insulated Class II devices though). I wouldn’t doubt we’ll see audiophile ones on the market soon enough. Due to family considerations space is tight. The server and switches are in a closet in the office directly below - I think anything to bring down the EMF of this mess is a good thing. I can feel it. Anyway, as is required to state, YMMV. I also wouldn’t put these adapters on anything high level, such as the LPS-1 to Rendu connection. 

 

I have serious tinnitus from being a rock and roll photographer, and also anything to attenuate high frequencies is fine by me. My system is so damn fatigue free now. I also had a few Ethernet cables on hand to “tune” things. In the end it was AQ Cinnamon from Vortexbox to switch, Monoprice Cat 6 to FMC, Melcord Opal to rendu. I also tried some basic Cat 7 Teragrand in the mix,. Pretty good, very neutral. Wanted to seek the Cinnamon as I always found it too thin in bass in the system, but now just right out of the server (still too thin up top), and also in the office for the last leg to the UQ. The increase in bass, and frankly decibels, has been that great. My 30 watt amp suddenly feels like a 45. (Which in Naim world is like many others 75). 

 

Anyway, much thanks to John Swenson for this tweak. How are you settling in in our fine state? Here come the cold and rain. We find skiing and/or a Hawaii vacation is the way to make it through. 

 

Best,

 

CP

 

 

SERVER CLOSET (in office directly below living room stereo):NUC 7i5BNH with Roon ROCK (ZeroZone 12V on the NUC)>Cisco 2690L-16PS switch>Sonore opticalModule (Uptone LPS 1.2)>

LIVING ROOM: Sonore opticalRendu Roon version (Sonore Power Supply)> Shunyata Venom USB>Naim DAC V1>Witchhat DIN>Naim NAP 160 Bolt Down>Chord Rumor 2>Audio Physic Compact Classics. OFFICE: opticalModule> Sonore microRendu 1.4> Matrix Mini-i Pro 3> Naim NAP 110>NACA5>KEF Ls50's. BJC 6a and Ghent Catsnake 6a JSSG ethernet; AC cables: Shunyata Venom NR V-10; Audience Forte F3; Ice Age copper/copper; Sean Jacobs CHC PowerBlack, Moon Audio DIN>RCA, USB A>C. Isolation: Herbie's Audio Lab. 

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49 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

 

I’ve left my TP-Link 10/100 FMC’s in, on both my main system (microRendu 1.3 with USBCP, LPS-1, into Naim DAC V1) and office (naim UnitiQute). I can hear a difference with or without, and prefer with. The expense is not that big. For how basic my system is - the V1 feeds a rebuilt vintage Naim 110 amp into Rega RX3 speakers - it sounds much bigger for a lot less than one might think. The ground shunt trick has been transformative for my system - I did EVERYTHING, including Vortexbox server, Roku’s nearby, FMC’s, two GS108 switches (one directly before office system), an FS105 directly before FMC’s to rendu, the HDPLEX to LPS-1 connection, the iFi SPDIF purifier into the V1 for the TV connection, (also HDPLEX). Switch upstairs not done yet (Roku is), but hey, I’m not obsessing about it. :)

 

Anyway, even if all of this has no direct effect on the sound quality, things should be grounded, right? It’s a cheap tweak, fun to do, and will only do good (big no no on double insulated Class II devices though). I wouldn’t doubt we’ll see audiophile ones on the market soon enough. Due to family considerations space is tight. The server and switches are in a closet in the office directly below - I think anything to bring down the EMF of this mess is a good thing. I can feel it. Anyway, as is required to state, YMMV. I also wouldn’t put these adapters on anything high level, such as the LPS-1 to Rendu connection. 

 

I have serious tinnitus from being a rock and roll photographer, and also anything to attenuate high frequencies is fine by me. My system is so damn fatigue free now. I also had a few Ethernet cables on hand to “tune” things. In the end it was AQ Cinnamon from Vortexbox to switch, Monoprice Cat 6 to FMC, Melcord Opal to rendu. I also tried some basic Cat 7 Teragrand in the mix,. Pretty good, very neutral. Wanted to seek the Cinnamon as I always found it too thin in bass in the system, but now just right out of the server (still too thin up top), and also in the office for the last leg to the UQ. The increase in bass, and frankly decibels, has been that great. My 30 watt amp suddenly feels like a 45. (Which in Naim world is like many others 75). 

 

Anyway, much thanks to John Swenson for this tweak. How are you settling in in our fine state? Here come the cold and rain. We find skiing and/or a Hawaii vacation is the way to make it through. 

 

Best,

 

CP

 

 

 

Make sure to experiment and remove some of the DC- output groundings in your system. In my own experience with it less is surely more. I started out with DC- output grounding to Aqvox switch, ISO Regen, Auralic Aries Mini, Brooklyn DAC and Aqvox GND screw. I am now at DC- output to Aqvox switch and Aqvox switch only as the optimal choise. It sounds better without ISO Regen, Brooklyn DAC and Auralic Aries Mini in the end.

As always it is system dependent, but surely worth a step-back to find out.

 

 

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Sage advice. I’ve tried ungrounding the last leg FMC and the LPS-1 and it sounds worse. Always at the very top end. Maybe a tad more exciting for lack of a better term but that quickly gets fatiguing. Like I said, nothing grounded post FMC and both the Naims of course plug grounded to their own dedicated circuit, the HDPLEX with ground shunt on it’s own circuit, the upstream FMC on the TV circuit with an iFi, the server and switch on the basement office circuit, modem on another circuit, and so on. So pretty well sussed on the network side and I’m pretty happy to just sleep on it for now. Next challenge to get the AirPort Extreme up and out of the basement into a centrally located closet. Then a 1.4 board grade, Herbie’s footers for the Rega’s, a starquad cable for the LPS-1 to rendu. 

SERVER CLOSET (in office directly below living room stereo):NUC 7i5BNH with Roon ROCK (ZeroZone 12V on the NUC)>Cisco 2690L-16PS switch>Sonore opticalModule (Uptone LPS 1.2)>

LIVING ROOM: Sonore opticalRendu Roon version (Sonore Power Supply)> Shunyata Venom USB>Naim DAC V1>Witchhat DIN>Naim NAP 160 Bolt Down>Chord Rumor 2>Audio Physic Compact Classics. OFFICE: opticalModule> Sonore microRendu 1.4> Matrix Mini-i Pro 3> Naim NAP 110>NACA5>KEF Ls50's. BJC 6a and Ghent Catsnake 6a JSSG ethernet; AC cables: Shunyata Venom NR V-10; Audience Forte F3; Ice Age copper/copper; Sean Jacobs CHC PowerBlack, Moon Audio DIN>RCA, USB A>C. Isolation: Herbie's Audio Lab. 

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