Popular Post JohnSwenson Posted October 30, 2017 Author Popular Post Share Posted October 30, 2017 Update on network leakage issues One of the members sent me a Netgear GS105 to test, it comes out almost as good as the FS105. I have not tested the GS108, but it is PROBABLY the same as the GS108. The one I tested is the V5 version. I can make no claims as to other versions. I can say that for the FS105, both the V2 and V3 (latest version) were both good, so an earlier version of the GS105 has a good probability of also working well. So at this point I think it is safe to say that the current versions of Netgear switches, FS105, FS108, GS105 and GS108 are the list of switches that can be used to to block network leakage from getting into your audio system. Do NOT assume that other models or device types (routers, modems, APs etc) will also do so. It takes a huge amount of time and frustration for me to do these leakage tests. At this point I am through with it, period. Please do not send me anything to test or ask that I test some specific device you have or want to buy. I will not test it. In the last several days I have written several posts that I hope will explain how to use this information, I'm not going to re-write all of it here in this post, just scroll up and read my my last several posts in this thread. One thing that hasn't been covered is what if you have or are buying one of those "audiophile" switches? I have not tested nor will I be testing any of those for their leakage characteristics. Remember that the leakage comes from an SMPS connected to something on your network. Thus if you are using one of the audiophile switches you need to make sure it is powered from an LPS, OR powered from an SMPS with the negative output grounded. This makes sure you are not adding leakage through this switch. To make sure you are not getting leakage from other devices on the network put one of the above named switches (with grounded SMPS or LPS) in front of the audiophile switch. These switches are not expensive, if in doubt just add one in front of your AE. If it is not the last switch before the AE just make sure that the last one is powered from grounded SMPS or LPS. One other thing I have been finding is that common UTP (Un-shielded Twisted Pair) Ethernet cable radiates leakage current like mad. Since leakage is common mode, it doesn't matter that the cable is twisted pair since the same thing is on both wires. These cables make beautiful antennas for leakage. This MAY be why some people like to use shielded Ethernet cables with their audio systems. This also means that if you use one of the above switches, there is no leakage current going through the "output" Ethernet Cable so there can be no radiation from the leakage, because there isn't any leakage going through the cable. This also means that if you do use one of these switches to block leakage it should probably be somewhat far away from the audio system. If the switch is right in the rack with your audio stuff the cable going to the rest of the network can be radiating noise into your audio equipment. If the switch is further away, the only Ethernet cable near the audio equipment is the one without leakage. I hope these recent posts are sufficient for you all to use the information, I really want to get on with things and spend my time developing the new ground breaking products we've been dreaming up. John S. gstew, Cornan, jmontoya21 and 6 others 6 1 2 Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Does anyone know if the GS105 V5 can be powered with 5Vdc? And does it take a 2.1mm or 2.5mm DC plug size? Link to comment
Speed Racer Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 11 minutes ago, Em2016 said: Does anyone know if the GS105 V5 can be powered with 5Vdc? Why would you think it could? It requires 12VDC..... Link to comment
SuperRoo Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 My GS108 is 12V with a 2.1 plug Nearfield setup-Matrix Element H USB>Curious Evolved>Yggy OG>Freya+>Mono Trys>Harbeth P3ESR 40th & Martin Logan Dynamo 1100X & Burson Soloist w/ Super Charger> Mr.Speakers Ether 2,& Technics 1500C, Arcromat> SoundSmith Carmen MkII > Zu Mission>Parks Puffin Toslink.. Blue Jeans interconnects, Pangea power cables, IsoAcoustics feet, Goldpoint SW2X Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 33 minutes ago, Speed Racer said: Why would you think it could? It requires 12VDC..... It’s important (for me) to continue to learn new things: Link to comment
Popular Post Superdad Posted October 31, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 31, 2017 40 minutes ago, Speed Racer said: Why would you think it could? It requires 12VDC..... I have the FS105 (12V version) here and just tested. 7.5V is its lower limit for operating. 7V is too low. I found out by trying to power it with an LPS-1 set first at 5V and then at 7V--neither worked, but 7.5 from the Mean Well I was [the LPS-1] charging with works fine. So there you have it. pl_svn and gstew 1 1 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Speed Racer Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Did you do your test will all ports fully active in both directions? Having run a datacenter full of Ethernet switches and worked with companies producing switches in testing power supplies and usage to see if we could use less.....I would not recommend supplying too little voltage. There is a reason they use a 12VDC power supply if that is what they spec. Link to comment
Popular Post Superdad Posted October 31, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 31, 2017 52 minutes ago, Speed Racer said: There is a reason they use a 12VDC power supply if that is what they spec. Yes, there is a reason: So they can supply them with a cheap 500mA $1 wall wart instead of a higher current supply. Nothing in the box runs from 12V--the chips run 3.3V or even 1.1. All these things just use switching regulators that run from a range of input voltages. Give them lower voltage and they just draw a little more current. That's all. pl_svn and MikeyFresh 1 1 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
chetthejet Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 For either John or Alex... I have an isoRegen powered by an LPS-1. I've made a couple of John's shunts---one for the microRendu and the other for the isoRegen/LPS-1 combo. My question is regarding the location of the shunt in the isoRegen/LPS-1 chain. Should the shunt go in at the isoRegen connection or at the connection between the LPS-1 and the Meanwell??? Thanks! Link to comment
Superdad Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 1 minute ago, chetthejet said: Should the shunt go in at the isoRegen connection or at the connection between the LPS-1 and the Meanwell??? Ground ONLY the Mean Well's zero-volt ("ground")! Do NOT ground the output of the LPS-1 or you will defeat both its "floating"/isolation feature and the galvanic isolation of the ISO REGEN. UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Speed Racer Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 42 minutes ago, Superdad said: Yes, there is a reason: So they can supply them with a cheap 500mA $1 wall wart instead of a higher current supply. Nothing in the box runs from 12V--the chips run 3.3V or even 1.1. All these things just use switching regulators that run from a range of input voltages. Give them lower voltage and they just draw a little more current. That's all. Then your LPS-1 at 5VDC should work just fine, right? But it doesn't...... The reason is that they needed 12VDC to get the required power to the board to power it when fully utilized. Link to comment
Superdad Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 15 minutes ago, Speed Racer said: Then your LPS-1 at 5VDC should work just fine, right? But it doesn't...... Wow, you really want to argue this? The fact that it is not happy with 5V input simply means that with the synchronous buck regulator chip used, combined with whatever surrounding caps and inductor, 5V falls outside the input range. There really is very little sophistication in the PS of these cheap switches. UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Speed Racer Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 2 minutes ago, Superdad said: Wow, you really want to argue this? The fact that it is not happy with 5V input simply means that with the synchronous buck regulator chip used, combined with whatever surrounding caps and inductor, 5V falls outside the input range. There really is very little sophistication in the PS of these cheap switches. So, it was designed for a higher voltage input....wow....they didn't use a 12VDC supply JUST because they were cheap. This is all quite ridiculous. We don't need an LPS-1 on every DC powered device connected to our audio systems. Just ground the damn zero voltage line after it leaves the SMPS and be done with it. Link to comment
Popular Post Superdad Posted October 31, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 31, 2017 By the way, over the weekend John made another very interesting (and provocative to some I'm sure) post in thread that may have been overlooked. I think a lot of you here might enjoy it: While we won't yet reveal the new products we are working on, I can promise that all of what John has been posting lately--and some of the pieces that many of you are experimenting with--is germane to the directions we are going in. Cornan and pl_svn 2 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
jamesg11 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Now that JS is closing shop on this epic investigation, for the time being I’ll at least assume, ... who is putting their hand up to write & post the summary/take-away? Self-interest here, because I need to get someone more competent than me to implement, & they’re not going to wade all thru the extensive above. I’ll start with locating one of those Netgear switches, pronto. macmini M1>ethernet / elgar iso tran(2.5kVa, .0005pfd)>consonance pw-3 boards>ghent ethernet(et linkway cat8 jssg360)>etherRegen(js-2)>ghent ethernet(et linkway cat8 jssg360) >ultraRendu (clones lpsu>lps1.2)>curious regen link>rme adi-2 dac(js-2)>cawsey cables>naquadria sp2 passive pre> 1.naquadria lucien mkII.5 power>elac fs249be + elac 4pi plus.2> 2.perreaux9000b(mods)>2x naquadria 12” passive subs. Link to comment
Popular Post Superdad Posted October 31, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 31, 2017 41 minutes ago, Speed Racer said: So, it was designed for a higher voltage input....wow....they didn't use a 12VDC supply JUST because they were cheap. This is all quite ridiculous. We don't need an LPS-1 on every DC powered device connected to our audio systems. Just ground the damn zero voltage line after it leaves the SMPS and be done with it. Okay, it is becoming clear you may be among the group that likes to twist things around to prove some conspiracy. Let's clear this up in hurry: a) The person asked if he could use a lower voltage supply to power his switch. He said nothing about an LPS-1 and I was not promoting such. All I said was that I tested the range of the MP1482DS buck regulator as implemented in the Netgear FS105 switch and found that it works fine down to about 7.5V. Could handle up to 18V I suspect. b) As with laptops and many other computer devices, the widespread use of wide-input range synchronous buck converters allows the manufacturer to supply a higher voltage, lower current PS--which are cheaper and more efficient. That IS why they do it and that is why you see 18-19V laptop power supplies. There are no logic chips running from 12V--few even run from 5V. Lower voltage, higher current. c) We have never promoted the use of our UltraCap LPS-1 for Ethernet switches (though people are free to do whatever they wish with out popular, ultra-low-noise, "floating"/isolated supply). d) "Earthing" the zero-volt ("ground") output of an SMPS only removes its high-impedance leakage component. It does not deal with any of the following: low-Impedance leakage, output noise/ripple, high output impedance, or anything else. Since you seem to just now be joining this thread, I suggest you scroll back and read John's long treatise on the issues of leakage: auricgoldfinger, Les Habitants, Bricki and 3 others 4 2 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Popular Post sonata Posted October 31, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 31, 2017 On 28/10/2017 at 8:08 AM, Superdad said: Here is the same Mean Well unit with its DC zero-volt ("ground") tied to the ground pin of its IEC320-C14 inlet this way: --Alex C. Alex, Thanks for this idea - really neat & less clutter. I have modified all 3 of my Meanwell SMPS's being used with my LPS-1's. I have also created a slightly different grounding adapter, using parts from Jaycar here in Oz. It works out cheaper for me. Here is what I used ... And I have applied this grounding adapter to my Netgear GS-108 switch and to my NAS - I am quite impressed with the improvement in SQ. Thanks John and Alex! Regards, Rob MikeyFresh, gstew, Cornan and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment
Superdad Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 12 minutes ago, jamesg11 said: Now that JS is closing shop on this epic investigation, for the time being I’ll at least assume, ... who is putting their hand up to write & post the summary/take-away? Self-interest here, because I need to get someone more competent than me to implement, & they’re not going to wade all thru the extensive above. I though @gstew did a really nice job summarizing and giving practical tips in the first half of this post: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/37034-smps-and-grounding/?do=findComment&comment=735506 Les Habitants 1 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Superdad Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 2 minutes ago, sonata said: Now that's clever Rob! Very nice for those who don't mind soldering and using heat shrink. Thanks for posting. UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Popular Post sandyk Posted October 31, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 31, 2017 34 minutes ago, Superdad said: Since you seem to just now be joining this thread, I suggest you scroll back and read John's long treatise on the issues of leakage: Alex C Best to put this member on your Ignore list along with the usual disruptive types who like to crap in Audiophile threads in general, even where the poster is as highly qualified and experienced as John is ! Les Habitants, asdf1000, austinpop and 1 other 2 2 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Popular Post austinpop Posted October 31, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 31, 2017 52 minutes ago, sandyk said: Alex C Best to put this member on your Ignore list along with the usual disruptive types who like to crap in Audiophile threads in general, even where the poster is as highly qualified and experienced as John is ! Yes, ignorance (of disruptive trolls) is bliss! MikeyFresh, tapatrick, Jiffi32 and 1 other 1 2 1 My Audio Setup Link to comment
BigGuy Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 10 hours ago, jamesg11 said: Now that JS is closing shop on this epic investigation, for the time being I’ll at least assume, ... who is putting their hand up to write & post the summary/take-away? Self-interest here, because I need to get someone more competent than me to implement, & they’re not going to wade all thru the extensive above. I’ll start with locating one of those Netgear switches, pronto. Definitely appreciate the patience shown by both John and Alex in answering our questions. I too will be looking to purchase a Netgear switch, e.g., Fs105, to insert between my router and PC but wonder how one knows if the switch is V5 or higher per John's recent post particularly buying onnline? Link to comment
chetthejet Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 11 hours ago, chetthejet said: For either John or Alex... I have an isoRegen powered by an LPS-1. I've made a couple of John's shunts---one for the microRendu and the other for the isoRegen/LPS-1 combo. My question is regarding the location of the shunt in the isoRegen/LPS-1 chain. Should the shunt go in at the isoRegen connection or at the connection between the LPS-1 and the Meanwell??? Thanks! Thanks, Alex. So, to confirm, the chain should go Meanwell-->shunt-->LPS-1-->IsoRegen-->Dac?? Link to comment
Superdad Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 4 minutes ago, chetthejet said: Thanks, Alex. So, to confirm, the chain should go Meanwell-->shunt-->LPS-1-->IsoRegen-->Dac?? That is correct. UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Forehaven Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Alex/John, would the ground wire coming loose off shunt device cause it to interrupt the LPS1 to not power up? Ryzen 7 2700 PC Server, NUC7CJYH w. 4G Apacer RAM as Renderer/LPS 1.2 - IsoRegen/LPS-1/.2 - Singxer SU-1/LPS1.2 - Holo Spring Level 3 DAC - LTA MicroZOTL MZ2 - Modwright KWA 150 Signature Amp - Tidal Audio Piano's. . Link to comment
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