SMPS and grounding

[Cornan]

2 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

Over the last month I have been performing extensive tests on leakage currents coming from SMPS power supplies. One of the most important results from this investigations is the makeup of this leakage current.

 

Previously my understanding was that leakage current was mainly a low frequency phenoninum, 60Hz, and its harmonics (60, 120, 180, 240 etc). My early investigations seemed to show that this was true with some high frequency components from the switching operation, but that this was fairly small in comparison to the whole. This turned out to be not true. It turns out that SMPS leakage is very hard to measure, it consists of some VERY high impedance components, on the order of 300 Mega ohms and some much lower impedance components.

 

None of the standard electronics test equipment will properly measure this, there impedance is simply too low and drastically changes the signal while trying to measure it. My only option was to build my own ultra high impedance differential probe (around 10 Giga ohms) so I can measure leakage current directly (rather than its affect on other equipment).

 

Because of this ultra high impedance it turns out leakage current can go all kinds of places you don't think about. It turns out to be extremely difficult to block using normal techniques, the blocking device has to have over a giga ohm to significantly attenuate it, this is VERY tough to achieve.

 

It turns out the best way to deal with this high impedance part is to shunt it around the audio equipment, there is a very easy way to do this, ground the negative output of the SMPS. It seems that even SMPS that include a ground pin don't actually use it for anything. This sounds too simple, but it actually works. PLEASE do not under any circumstances  attempt to modify an SMPS to do this, this is DEADLY, to NOT attempt!!!

 

Fortunately there is a real easy - inexpensive way to do this, it doesn't take any complex knowledge, I'm calling this the power supply grounding adapter, here are a couple pictures:

 

 

This consists of three items and some wire. The yellow item is a three pin AC power plug (shown is the US model), the black parts are male and female DC barrel connectors with screw connectors, no soldering necessary! Amazon has a whole bunch of places selling these for CCTV cameras. The spec is 5.5mm outside and 2.1mm inside. Most you will see will be this spec. The + of the male is wired to the + of the female and - on the male goes to - of the female. Look at the close up picture, in order for the wire to go straight across one of the connectors has to be upside down. This is extremely important to get right. You can use many different types of wire for this, I used solid core 14AWG wire with the insulation stripped off.

 

A green wire goes from the ground pin of the AC plug to the - pin of one of the connectors, strip a little off and just stick it in with the wire going between the two connectors, use a screwdriver to tighten the screws, you are done.

 

The green wire does NOT have to be a heavy duty high power wire. The SMPS are already designed to be double insulated so the AC cannot show up on the DC output, grounding it does not pose any electrical threat. I just used some nice silicon rubber wire I bought on Amazon, but really any green wire will do.

 

You plug the output of the SMPS into the "jack" side, and the "plug" side goes into where you would have plugged the SMPS. The AC plug goes into the SAME power strip or duplex outlet where you plugged in the SMPS. This is very important to properly shunt the high impedance part of the leakage current. If it goes into a different circuit you can wind up making it worse.

 

You should do this on every SMPS that is somehow electrically connected into your sound system. Some items may have different connectors such and Ethernet switches etc. There are a bunch of different adapters available that can convert the 5.5/2.1 to just about anything out there, you may need to use a pair of these.

 

You may ask "how effective IS this?"

 

Here are some graphs, the first is the leakage current of an SMPS, the second is with this adapter plugged in:

 

 

 

That is a significant reduction in leakage for a $10 shunt adapter.

 

If you want to get it all you will have to use something like the LPS-1 which will get rid of it all.

 

Have fun,

 

John S.

 

 

Great write-up John! ?

How about when you are using a floating SMPS, where the safety ground is not connected to the negative output or chassis? I pretty much use these everywhere with truly great results. Especially effective powering network devices.

[Cornan]

30 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

It turns out the floating ones are the worst, the leakage current has nowhere to go except what it is powering. None of the SMPS I have connect the DC output to safety ground so all these tests were done with floating SMPS (I actually have over a hundred tests), grounding really does dramatically reduce leakage from these devices into what they power.

 

John S.

 

Very interesting. What I found interesting is that in my setup where I use a floating SMPS to power the ISO Regen, Aqvox switch and Aries Mini the ISO Regen did´nt improve much. In fact it descreased the SQ, unless I had the ISO Regens galvanic isolation off. When I tried a Regen Amber pre the ISO Regen the difference was not subtile at all, and it actually improved SQ. I concluded that this had something to do about the Regen Ambers voltage regulator, so I have ordered a bunch of LT3045 voltage regulators (2 regulators per device) to use pre ISO Regen and Aqvox switch. 

For notes. When I had the ISO Regen with ISO off and 5v injection it sounded great as well. When I tried to use the Regen Amber as a voltage regulator for the Aqvox switch it decrease SQ, which I concluded that the leakage went right throught the ISO Regen into the Brooklyn DAC. This told me that there indeed was a internal leakage loop going on (since everything is connected to a IT with grounded secondary and the SMPS is floating).

 

However, I have a star-earthed (and starquad wired) power distributor on order that will have a separate ground pin. What you are telling me now is that I can connect a ground wire this ground pin directly to the negative DC output (screwable banana sockets) of the floating SMPS to reduce this problem?

 

Why do you think Regen Ambers voltage regulator improves SQ pre the ISO Regen in my setup with floating SMPSs?

 

 

 

[Cornan]

@JohnSwenson

Still I wonder? The floating SMPSs have improved SQ vastly in every single spot that I have used them. They are perticularly effective on ethernet connected devices such as routers, network switches, streamers etc. Plugged into a isolation transformer with floating secondary they have even improved upon unregulated/regulated Li-ion battery packs (charger disconnected from ac mains). Still you are telling me that floating SMPS is worse than a normal SMPS? I find that extremely hard to beleive (not to say impossible to beleive in), unless there are other explanations why floating SMPSs have that great impact on SQ that is much more prominent than the leakage?

[Cornan]

30 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

Cornan

Silicon Chip magazine published an article on this in July 2006, complete with measurements from different DVD players, showing the HF rubbish on the AC residual from the SMPS, which could measure as high as half the A.C. Mains voltage.. They used a 3 pin mains plug with only the earth wire connected, and a capacitor to the equipment's metal case.

 Unfortunately, a HDD crash saw me lose my copy of the original article. However several members were sent copies of this and another connected article. several years ago

Attached is a link to a partial copy of the "Tingle Terminator" article.

Regards

Alex

Attached is a link to a copy of one of the pages that I somehow managed to retain.

https://imageshack.com/i/po722bNDj

 

http://archive.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_107106/article.html

 

Thanks for the link Alex! However, I am not sure that this is totally tranferable to a floating SMPS that have both the negative DC output and chassi totally isolated from the safety ground while (quote) "they used a 3 pin mains plug with only the earth wire connected, and a capacitor to the equipment's metal case".

[Cornan]

10 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 

If you were able to read the original articles and see the measurements, you would see that it is.

Most CD/DVD/BR players use SMPS, and are double insulated with no connection to mains earth.(floating)

 

I am going to ground the DC terminal strip in my B setup tonight. This DC terminal have a GND screw that is connected to the DC negative side of the terminal and it is powered by a single Gophert csp-3205II floating PSU. All devices 5v devices (Chromecast Audio/TP-Link UE-300/OTG power split adapter/TP-Link DSG-105 and Oehlbach DAC 40 edition) are connected to this DC terminal and the active speakers are connected to a Ultra IT on a separate ac mains line (but ending up in the same ac wall outlet). I will ground this DC terminal strip to the safety ground receptacle of the Hugo powerstrip where the Gophert is plugged in to see how that turns out.

 

I have actually tried this before with great results, but since I also had a grounding box connected to the same safety ground receptacle at the time I probably made the wrong conclutions that it was the groudning box that made that improvement and not the safety ground connection to the DC terminals GND screw.

 

Anyway I´ll be back with my impressions asap!

 

 

[Cornan]

10 minutes ago, sandyk said:

The schematic at the link shows the mandatory culprits responsible for most of the problems.

 

http://imageshack.com/a/img923/6873/7NUrjX.jpg

 

 

 

Thanks Alex! Here is how the Gophert csp-3205II looks like on the inside (borrowed picture):

 

 

I am no good with schematics. Are we talking about the same thing?

 

 

 

[Cornan]

3 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 In the schematic, you will see 2 capacitors highlighted in yellow.

They connect the mains side of the SMPS to the secondary side.

IIRC, they are mainly there to meet RF/EMI regulations.

 

Please check your PMs for a DL link to a copy of the 2 articles mentioned.

Do not repost the link, as it is copyright material.

 

Thanks Alex! I will check it out asap and ofcourse not repost the link or the paper.

 

Micael

[Cornan]

Here is my first impression grounding the DC output of my Gophert csp-3205II! ?

 

A small step towards better sq, but not at all a night and day improvement.

[Cornan]

5 hours ago, sandyk said:

 In the schematic, you will see 2 capacitors highlighted in yellow.

They connect the mains side of the SMPS to the secondary side.

IIRC, they are mainly there to meet RF/EMI regulations.

 

Please check your PMs for a DL link to a copy of the 2 articles mentioned.

Do not repost the link, as it is copyright material.

 

Thanks for the info Alex! I have quickly read it through. Even if the "Tingle Terminator" is a fairly similar idea it is connected to the case of a CD player (which is grounded) and almost used as a shield for the AC mains power cable and a drain for shield currents. Since the Gopherts safety ground is not passed through to the case of the Gophert I am not sure it will work. Does this stop me trying? Ofcourse not! ? I will try this as well asap. Do you know if the capacitor is absolutely neccessary? Can I just run an additional ground wire from the chassi to the safety ground pin, maybe twisted with the DC output ground wire?

[Cornan]

12 minutes ago, octaviars said:

 

Are you really shure about that? If the case is not grounded then it should have a dubble isolated symbol. 

 

If you look at the picture of a Ghopert you see a ground connection screw next to the incoming ground wire from the IEC inlet. Have you measured between the case and the ground pin in the IEC to see if there is any connection? 

 

 

 

Yes, I am 100% sure. I have both got it confirmed from the manufactorer and confirmed it myself using a hand-held battery powered multimeter between safety ground pin as DC output and chassi.

[Cornan]

6 minutes ago, octaviars said:

 

Ok good to know that. Do you know what the chassi is connected to on the PCB? 

 

 

It is the IEC fuse (soldered) as far as I can see.

[Cornan]

12 minutes ago, octaviars said:

 

No I mean the screw next to the green and yellow wire that is soldered to the PCB? If you look at other photos of Ghopherts there is a metal flange going up from the PCB which is attatched to the screw on the chassi. To me this did look like the chassi was grounded but if you have measured it I belive you so hence my question what the purpouse of connecting the chassi to the PCB if it is not for safety grounding?

 

The green/yellow cable is a ground wire ofcourse. It would be really dangerous without the IEC inlet grounded. However, it is not passed by to the chassi or to the DC negative output. It is isolated. You can clearly see the isolation border on the picture I posted.

[Cornan]

12 minutes ago, octaviars said:

 

Yes but what is the ground used for on the PCB? If the chassi is isolated why would it be dangerous if there was no earth? 

 

I just want to know what they use the earth for if it is not connected to the chassi for safety reasons and if the chassi is not grounded it must be double isolated. I suppose the connect the filter capacitors to ground.

 

If you want to know more in details I suggest you ask the supplier for answers. They are usually quite quick to reply on Banggood.com.

The safety ground connection should be there for personal safety if something goes wrong.

[Cornan]

1 minute ago, jaaptina said:

Has anyone actually experienced a boost in SQ after applying John's SMPS grounding hack? I have read through the posts but haven't read about someone trying this in his system currently. 

 

Yes, I have experianced a boost in SQ. The DC - grounding of my floating SMPSs connected to a Entreq Minimus grounding box improved SQ, possibly by blocking a leakage loop going to both my ISO Regen and AQVOX switch-8. Before the DC- grounding I could use ISO Regen alone without getting a hollow sound with GI on. I had a Regen Amber pre the ISO Regen and the GI off until I tried this little "tweak". Also grounding the AQVOX switch-8 improved SQ a lot before the DC- grounding. After the DC- grounding the AQVOX grounding did´nt give as much SQ boost as before.

[Cornan]

49 minutes ago, John769 said:

FWIW, I've noticed more bass and darker background when the ground wire is attached directly to the negative banana plug (on the Gophert smps) compared to wrapping it around the screw terminal.  The wire goes to a ESD plug on my powerstrip.

 

 

 

Interesting John769!

I have actually ordered these fork spades a while ago to try at the screw terminals of my Gopherts just to see if better contact at the banana plugs will translate to better SQ http://www.ebay.com/itm/Y-U-Type-Brass-Speaker-Plugs-Audio-Screw-Fork-Spade-Connector-Gold-Plated-Plug/142466085228?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=441464685440&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

 

Based on your impressions it looks like it could be a good move!

 

 

[Cornan]

5 hours ago, mourip said:

This is a great thread. It is definitely why I keep coming back to CA.

 

I have a question regarding the broad concepts discussed here but not specifically involving an Uptone product.

 

What about a device that has an internal SMPS that is fed via an external IEC socket and connected to a three plug AC cable. Is it most likely that given the fact that there is a ground pin being used that the SMPS has a ground connection to it or is it more likely that the ground pin is just a chassis safety ground?

 

I can probably answer my own question with "It depends on how it was designed" however is there any harm to making sure that the negative output of the SMPS is in fact tied to the IEC ground or would this be ill advised?

 

Regarding personal electrical safety I have done a lot of DIY and scratch building and am comfortable making that kind of a change.

 

Thanks!

 

+1 I would be very interested to know this as well. My Brooklyn DAC have a SMPS connected to a grounded IEC. Just thinking out loud. If the IEC is connected to the chassi, would'nt a ground wire from chassi to safety ground (or grounding box) do pretty much the same thing as internally rewiring the IEC socket so it is connected to the safety ground?

 

Looking at a picture inside Brooklyn DAC it does look like the SMPS is actually connected to the IEC ground pin.

 

[Cornan]

28 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Not entirely following you.  We are talking about grounding the (non-positive) OUTPUT of the SMPS.  So it really depends upon if the ground-plane of the circuit board is common with the chassis (which IS most likely common to AC mains ground).  There is a chance that only the SMPS INPUT is grounded to the chassis/inlet.  You would need to use a meter to check.

 

 

Well again, the SMPS input is most assuredly connected to the IEC ground pin.  But the photo does not give enough detail to tell if the OUTPUT of the supply is.  I see just the two black wires going to the PCB.

 

Thanks Alex! ?

 

I was thinking that the output of the SMPS was connected to the chassi, but on the other hand if the IEC output is connected to the chassi the SMPS would actually be common with AC ground. Sorry, I wrote before I thought things through completely! ?

 

Looks like it is time to ask Mytek support about it and if they do not answer I'll dig out my multimeter from the drawer and measure DC - OUTPUT to safety ground pin continuity or simply add a external floating SMPS with DC- grounding to the Brooklyn DAC. ?

[Cornan]

1 minute ago, flkin said:

How would one perform the grounding if using a floating isolation transformer? There is no ground to connect to.

 

A isolation transformer, even one with floating secondary, have the safety ground intact. It is just the output that is not grounded to the secondary of the isolation transformer.

 

[Cornan]

6 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 It takes something like 50mA of A.C. to kill you.

That is unlikely to be noticed by an RCD on the Primary side when the output is far, far, greater than that amount of current ?

Just because the AC output is floating, doesn't mean that devices powered by it don't have any return path to earth.

Please correct me if my thinking in this area is incorrect.

One and a half is the resident expert in this area.

 

Alex 

 

I was only anwering the question from @flkin. He never asked for any advices regarding safety. Since he already own a isolation transformer with floating secondary I assume he already knows about this or ask about it.

 

A RCD/GFCI should always be used at the output of a isolation transformer with floating secondary. As @One and a half have kindly explained to me before a balanced isolation transformer needs a 2-pole RCD/GFCI. These can be pretty hard to find if you are looking for a portable one, so here is a 240v Schuko plug one that I have ordered for my balanced isolation transformer with floating secondary. I will receive two today and will use one the output of my isolation transformer with floating secondary (replacing my 1-pole ditto) and on the output of my balanced isolation transformer with floating center tap.

 

https://www.brennenstuhl.com/de-DE/personenschutz-adapter-bdi-a-2-30-ip54

 

 

Another thing. Do not feel totally safe even with a RCD/GFCI at the output of a IT. A RCD/GFCI should be regulary checked to ensure functionallity.  

 

[Cornan]

20 minutes ago, flkin said:

 

Thanks for helping Cornan. I do have an Isolation Transformer with floating secondary today. And around Dec 2016 I believe it was either you or One and a Half that gave me instructions on how to wire it up. I eventually got an electrician to do so for my 230V system.

 

In my floating secondary, only the Neutral and Live wires are connected. The Neutral is attached to the chassis of the transformer. There is no Earth/Ground. On the primary side the Earth/Ground is attached to the chassis also.

@JohnSwenson says that the DC negative should be connected to the Earth/Ground where the SMPS is plugged in. In my case, I cant do that so does it mean I have to connect the DC negative out to the primary side Earth/Ground? I don’t see any other choice.

 

As One and a half explained the grounds will go back to where they orginally came from, ie. the Isolation transformer. The IT is your 0v reference where the SMPSs is connected to.

 

If you want to free up a socket with the help of a power splitter plug like this one.

 

You can also buy a grounding box if you feel adventurous. I have my SMPS powering my network devices to a Entreq Minimus. It sounds way better than connected to the safety ground. Just be careful not to cause any leakage loops into other devices. I had some problems myself when grouding the DC- output of the floating SMPS powering my ISO Regen. I had to ground it to the safety ground and keep the network devices grounded to the Minimus to get rid of the loop.

 

[Cornan]

 

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

I assume you realize that by not connecting the center tap it is no longer a "balanced transformer."  A hamburger without the meat patty in the middle is just a bun... 

 

Maybe I choose the wrong words for it? In any case, here is the schematics. I have added a toggle switch at the outside of the balanced IT which cut the the center-tap ground. Balanced and floating. ?

[Cornan]

This might help someone that, just like me, have searched for DC2.5/5.5mm plugs and sockets without success. These have seemed to only be available in the dimension DC2.1/5.5mm. Guess what? Now they have started to appear. I´ve just ordered them here:

 

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/2-5mm-dc-power-plug-with-screw-terminal-block-5pcs.html

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/2-5mm-dc-power-socket-with-screw-terminal-block-5pcs.html

 

 

 

[Cornan]

11 minutes ago, thyname said:

 

Good find!

 

So, if I get these, what else do I need to implement the trick? Just the plug?

 

You just need short wires between the + and - terminals of the plugs & socket, a long ground wire (long enough to reach the power strip where the SMPS in plugged into) from the - terminal to a normal AC mains plug where you connect the ground wire to the GND of the plug. Pretty straight forward and very well explained by John on the first post on this thread:

 

 

What ever you do. Be careful not to get it wrong!

 

 

 

[Cornan]

28 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

REMINDER!  One of the screw connectors needs to be rotated 180deg so that the +'s and -'s line up.  When you do this, there will be quite an offset between the two connectors so I actually made an offset connecting wire to get them on same plane, e.g....

 

                    ________

                    |

       _______

 

I then used 3/4 inch shrink to make a neat package.

 

You cannot be too careful! ? Otherwise the + and the - are clearly noted on the top of the plugs & sockets. Ofcourse you can miss it. But you shouldn't! ?

 

[Cornan]

56 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

To overcome a similar problem, I used a "4 Way/Port Manual Sharing Switch Box Network Ethernet Selector Splitter Switcher " between the PC and the Broadband Modem.

 When ripping CDs and playing music I switched off the connection between the modem and the PC by just pushing a push button.

 

 

Nice one Alex!  I did´nt even know they existed. Do you mean that this "4 Way/Port Manual Sharing Switch Box Network Ethernet Selector Splitter Switcher " completely cut the ports (the magnetic boxes inside the switch) of choise? Do you have a link where to find them?