FORGETTING the Digital to Analog conversion part, what is BEST Digital source?

[Ralf11]

"computer audio" is for people with a mac mini (used maybe) and a disc reader for their CDs - or who can afford a streamer

- it doesn't have to be hard or expensive (for 1st world types)

 

To get the best SQ may well require some experiments with various DACs, USB Cables, external clocks, etc. but you don't have to go to that level (just as many of us are happy with a lowly $7,000 pre-amp - or even a used $2,500 one - and did not buy a Ref 6.  Or a cheap pair of Maggies or Personas instead of Aida's ($120,000).

 

A meta-analysis by Reiss of high resolution files vs. Redbook found a slightly significant difference (statistically) - that is the best study I know of so far.  Several people on here have said there were large differences however.

 

I agree that the differences in recordings or masterings can be much larger than equipment differences.

 

There are also several people who have come on here and asked about good $250 speakers and so forth.  You don't have to spend a lot to listen to music.

 

You can start a new thread along the lines of: "Best CD only system for $xxx" etc. and I am sure people will try to help.

[asdf1000]

23 hours ago, barrows said:

suspect Beer may actually have some settings in his computer which are compromising his USB performance, this happens pretty easily, especially on Windows.  

 

Hi barrows

 

Can you share some high level tips, for us Windows users, using USB?

 

If I set my Windows playback as the laptop speakers, but in Roon (for example only) I use the ASIO driver for my USB DAC then is that sufficient?

 

This way the default Windows sound engine is not crossing paths with Roon's ASIO selection?

 

 

[barrows]

On high res: these comparisons are hard.  You really have to know a lot about the source of the files to make fair comparisons.  I find hi res is often worth it, and I like DSD a lot (of course i use a DAC which seems to be a little better with DSD).  

Of course the quality of the recording trumps a lot of other things, if not everything.  But I leave this out of discussions because the recordings are what they are, all we can do about that is seek out the best versions of the music we love:  With the possible exception of some really awful recordings, i always listen to the music I want hear!

[barrows]

1 minute ago, Em2016 said:

 

Hi barrows

 

Can you share some high level tips, for us Windows users, using USB?

 

If I set my Windows playback as the laptop speakers, but in Roon (for example only) I use the ASIO driver for my USB DAC then is that sufficient?

 

This way the default Windows sound engine is not crossing paths with Roon's ASIO selection?

 

 

I am not the guy for Windows advice, as I use OSX and linux, I am sure http others can help though.  stuff like JPlay and AO seems really tweaky and of questionable value to me, but you need good software.  Oh i see you are using ROON, OK.  ROON has a lot of oversampling options, you might want to play with those some.

[marce]

7 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

 

Yeah I tried reclocking a switch but can't say it makes a difference. If anything a good switch in between a noisy PC is better. There are cheap LPS which are easy to use. 

Why?

[marce]

9 hours ago, NOMBEDES said:

 

@barrows  I see that you are a computer expert:   "Design/Build Consultant with Simple Design /Sonore".  Good on you!

 

What about the rest of us that do not have your education, work experience and skill?  What about the rest of us that had to sell off a W4S DAC 1 because it would quit working with each so called "upgrade" from Cupertino?  My opinion only; "computer audio" is for experts such as yourself, or the serious hobbyist who likes to experiment with all manner of DACs, USB Cables, external clocks, and god knows what else.   I like to kick back play a CD or an LP and enjoy the music.  I am also unconvinced that high resolution files sound much different than redbook.  If a recording is well done, it should sound good on the common CD player and on a high resolution platform.  A poor recording will sound even worse on a high resolution file and given the state of the recording art industry today, you have a rather good chance of getting some horrid recordings.

 

I do have a modest computer audio system which does work, most of the time!

 

Interesting...

One set of views from someone who has a vested interest in selling audiophile gear.  I understand now the emphasis on audiophile gear... whereas some of just work in the mundane world of electronics (albeit often very low noise design).

 

 

 

 

[asdf1000]

7 hours ago, barrows said:

i see you are using ROON, OK.  ROON has a lot of oversampling options, you might want to play with those some.

 

Hi barrows. Sorry I don't use Roon's up-sampling, I let my DirectStream up-sample to 20x DSD rate.

 

I thought you were hinting at optimizing Windows settings for USB audio playback earlier.

 

[lucretius]

3 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Hi barrows. Sorry I don't use Roon's up-sampling, I let my DirectStream up-sample to 20x DSD rate.

 

I thought you were hinting at optimizing Windows settings for USB audio playback earlier.

 

 

20x -- that would be like DSD1284 

[asdf1000]

26 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

20x -- that would be like DSD1284 

 

 

Hehe yeh it's something like that. I think some of the Chord DAC's FPGA go to even higher sample rates (2048 x original sample rate)

[barrows]

4 hours ago, Em2016 said:

Hi barrows. Sorry I don't use Roon's up-sampling, I let my DirectStream up-sample to 20x DSD rate.

I understand.  If i were using the DS with ROON, I would try this approach, just to see if there is any benefit:

 

Set ROON to convert everything to DSD 128 (AKA DSD2).  As this might make things a little easier on the DS FPGA.  and try the different DSD conversion settings in ROON.  Might be no benefit, but unless you try you will not know.

 

The DS will then still go through its usual process of converting from DSD2 to 20xDSD, etc.

[barrows]

@marce, yes, I work as a consultant with Sonore.  But I am an audiophile first, and the advice I give on these forums is sincere, and based on my own experiences, not on trying to promote our specific products.

I do believe our products can offer a benefit to some, so when appropriate to a question I might recommend them, but I try to do it in a general way.  If you take a look at my posts I think you will see this.  I might say something like: you should try an Ethernet renderer, like the ones offered by Auralic or Sonore.

The level of compensation in my work is not such that I stand to gain much anyway!

The difference between running, say, a standard consumer computer via USB to a DAC, vs. a good purpose built audio source (like a good audiophile company produced server, or Ethernet renderer) is not subtle, so of course I recommend doing that. 

 

 

[NOMBEDES]

2 hours ago, barrows said:

@marce, yes, I work as a consultant with Sonore.  But I am an audiophile first, and the advice I give on these forums is sincere, and based on my own experiences, not on trying to promote our specific products.

I do believe our products can offer a benefit to some, so when appropriate to a question I might recommend them, but I try to do it in a general way.  If you take a look at my posts I think you will see this.  I might say something like: you should try an Ethernet renderer, like the ones offered by Auralic or Sonore.

The level of compensation in my work is not such that I stand to gain much anyway!

The difference between running, say, a standard consumer computer via USB to a DAC, vs. a good purpose built audio source (like a good audiophile company produced server, or Ethernet renderer) is not subtle, so of course I recommend doing that. 

 

 

 

+1.  "The difference between running, say, a standard consumer computer via USB to a DAC, vs a good purpose built audio source (edit) is not subtle."

 

Agree.  The home computer is a poor audio source.   

[jabbr]

10 hours ago, marce said:

Why?

 

I swapped the clock awhile ago in a very cheap fiberoptic switch ($60-70). Figured that since the chip itself is standard, and the SFP modules supplied by me, that the cost cutting was likely in the crystal. There are reports from hackers that these things matter. At least for fiberoptic, I don't notice any difference, and haven't looked at the issue in several years.

 

I know it shouldn't matter but don't like to dismiss without personal experience.

[marce]

13 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

I swapped the clock awhile ago in a very cheap fiberoptic switch ($60-70). Figured that since the chip itself is standard, and the SFP modules supplied by me, that the cost cutting was likely in the crystal. There are reports from hackers that these things matter. At least for fiberoptic, I don't notice any difference, and haven't looked at the issue in several years.

 

I know it shouldn't matter but don't like to dismiss without personal experience.

Interesting, actually I agree, worked on some comms stuff, long distance and there the clock is critical, wonder what difference it would make in a domestic situation... I know for long distance it minimises the number of packets lost as timing becomes critical at the receiving end especially for signals over copper. Re-doing my new house from scratch so instead of basic switches etc. from the local catalogue I'll look round and see what the alternates are. Tried cadging some liquid cooled stuff but they wouldn't give away a free system...

Fibre optic, not an area I have looked at a lot lately, but that has given me an idea. Any info you have on home fibre network would be greatly appreciated. No copper, distributed nodes, no interference, fast... Hmmm

[marce]

15 hours ago, NOMBEDES said:

 

+1.  "The difference between running, say, a standard consumer computer via USB to a DAC, vs a good purpose built audio source (edit) is not subtle."

 

Agree.  The home computer is a poor audio source.   

I do agree using the best low noise source is the optimum way, but isolation is easy, use wireless or an optical link and you can totally isolate the main source, be it PC, NAS whatever. Then have a simpler set up at the DAC to receive the data and transmit it to the DAC. 

 

[jabbr]

4 hours ago, marce said:

Any info you have on home fibre network would be greatly appreciated. No copper, distributed nodes, no interference, fast... Hmmm

I rewired  my house, roughly measured out lengths and then got LC-LC preterminated cables from fs.com (there are many sources). You can connect to Keystone jacks in the wall.

 

I found Brocade VDX 6720 10g switches on eBay for a few hundred $$. These are noisy but in the basement. My "legacy" copper 1gbe network comes into a 1gbe switch with a 10gbe uplink.

 

My NAS in the basement as well as my workstation in my upstairs office as well as music playing box (NAA/XXHE) all have Intel x520 NICs.  My NAS controls a 15 bay SAS3 box and uses ZFS under Ubuntu. 64 g RAM.

 

Ive had great luck with 10gbe equipment for p on the dollar on eBay with the usual caveats. 

 

This is thread has additional info 

(when getting long cables use thicker jackets because they coil less)

[jabbr]

For me, the improvement with fiber optic Ethernet was substantial and this allowed by to run 10gbe throughout my house. We have multiple TVs, video screens each running HD screens as well as laptops running streams via wireless. I have a fiber optic 1gbe internet connection. All for very inexpensive. I got industrial strength 10gbe switches for the price of a so-called "audiophile" Ethernet cable.

[jabbr]

5 hours ago, marce said:

Interesting, actually I agree, worked on some comms stuff, long distance and there the clock is critical, wonder what difference it would make in a domestic situation...

Yeah I concluded that short of actual phase error measurements, this was literally a shot in the dark -- with 10gbe eq from Intel, Brocade and others I'm less likely to be able to improve. 

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

I rewired  my house, roughly measured out lengths and then got LC-LC preterminated cables from fs.com (there are many sources). You can connect to Keystone jacks in the wall.

 

I found Brocade VDX 6720 10g switches on eBay for a few hundred $$. These are noisy but in the basement. My "legacy" copper 1gbe network comes into a 1gbe switch with a 10gbe uplink.

 

My NAS in the basement as well as my workstation in my upstairs office as well as music playing box (NAA/XXHE) all have Intel x520 NICs.  My NAS controls a 15 bay SAS3 box and uses ZFS under Ubuntu. 64 g RAM.

 

Ive had great luck with 10gbe equipment for p on the dollar on eBay with the usual caveats. 

 

This is thread has additional info 

(when getting long cables use thicker jackets because they coil less)

I don't think you would have gone through that effort and expense if you didn't think optical was best, and i sure hear a difference in sq in my setup (but again, i am sure my pc is noisy commercial pc).  Only issue with optical is dsd 64 is highest right?  will that ever change or limit of optical?  I guess i could live with dsd 64 if i have truly clean sound. 

 

Question, can i have standard ethernet into nas and toslink out, and could i use jriver to dlna with nas and send out toslink?

 

If so, what hardware would i need to buy?

 

I am convinced optical produces best sq.

[jabbr]

@beerandmusic fiber optic Ethernet is entirely different than fiber optic SPDIF/TOSlink -- entirely different. The DSD rate with fiber optic Ethernet is unlimited. For example even a 1000base-X connection can support 16 channels of DSD1024. 

 

I use the Solid-Run Clearfog Base as a network access point to convert to USB for DAC connection. It runs Linux.Fiber or copper Ethernet in.

[gstew]

Listening to my SDTrans384 -> Soekris DAM 1021 setup right now. It is my reference setup among the various I play with and not by a small amount. It has a lot going for it:

 

- VERY low noise source due to the very limited processing and both good and rational (though now a little dated) power supply networks.

 

- Plays up to 384 PCM & 256 DSD.

 

- I2S, S/PDIF, & PS Audio-compliant I2S over HDMI outputs. I2S is best (but requires a very close DAC chip, <3" best), the S/PDIF implementation is good, but definitely not today's SOTA, and the I2S over HDMI is limited by the PS Audio standard in that the player is the master, where the "correct" way to do it is to have the clocks at the DAC and they be the master.

 

- Very tweakable from a power perspective.

 

- Good (not great according to current standards) NDK clocks with the ability to take external clocks of appropriate frequencies.

 

 

On 9/20/2017 at 12:12 PM, beerandmusic said:

 

Please make the sdcard library so you can control song selection from a web browser and that it can play dsd.

 

 

On 9/19/2017 at 9:30 AM, barrows said:

I was referring to using Foobar as a way of browsing/library management for the D card player built into the Mirus Pro.  You can only find a song/album anyway if the correct card is in the Mirus Pro as well.  but, like i said, if these are not issues for you, you might very much the SD card approach.

 

On 9/19/2017 at 5:04 AM, beerandmusic said:

Huh?  they make 1tb sd cards...my entire library would fit on a 512GB sd card, and i have no problems managing that much data?  Everything is organized by genre, then artist, then album...takes a couple seconds to find anything.

 

 

BUT to make it a low-noise setup, it uses a fairly low-power (electrically & in capability) FPGA as the main processor.

 

- It only knows about the SD card inserted, nothing about any others in your library. AND it has no connectivity beyond power in and I2S-S/PDIF-HDMI out and a few power and clock inputs. So no browsing in Foobar. BTW, it does not work with all SD cards... that has been pretty hit or miss for me.

 

- Max SD card size is 32Gb and it only recognizes WAV, RIFF, and DFF files. So not a large portion of a library on a single card AND as Barrows so aptly noted, you have to figure out how to manage having your library split across a bunch of cards... I expect my entire library to take between 35-50 cards. I am still dealing with how to best manage my library in that format. AND making it capable of handling larger cards means more processing capability, which will be hard to do without compromising its inherent low noise and SQ.

 

- No FLAC, MP3, or any compression is supported, which of course is in line with minimal processing, BUT that means you have your files at native size, meaning fewer on an SD card and more cards.

 

- With limited processing capability, functionality is also VERY limited. 4 buttons...

     #1 Mode: Skip folders on the current card, set repeat mode (none, all, folder, one)

     #2 Skip to next file or folder (if folder skip mode selected)

     #3 Skip to previous file or folder (if folder skip mode selected)

     #4 Start (at the beginning of ALWAYS) or Stop playing current file

 

One can add a remote capability to these functions (and I have), but that is of limited utility as you have no way to see what's on the small screen remotely.

 

I would LOVE to have 2 functions added:

 

    1 - Phase reversal... could be another function on the Mode button

    2 - Fast forward/reverse. Not sure the architecture of the unit could handle this, but it would be nice, most of my music is ripped into single files per CD, so I have no way to navigate in a file, just start it at the beginning, stop it, start it at the beginning again.

 

On 9/18/2017 at 11:34 PM, barrows said:

<SNIP>

On the SDtrans, I am well aware of that approach, but it is too tweaky for most these days.  I have a Resonessence Mirus PRO DAC at home right now and it has a built in SD card player, but the user experience is too far from the convenience which most are used to gain much acceptance.  A library on SD cards is hard to imagine managing.  Sound quality is good on the Mirus Pro via SD card, but not better than the Signature Rendu SE via USB.

 

On 9/18/2017 at 11:29 PM, Norton said:

Funnily enough, I was going  to suggest a minimalist SD card transport direct to DAC as likely the best digital source purely in  SQ terms.  The SD trans is still a bit too DIY for me, but I've had a loan  Mirus DAC  in my system for the last fortnight and the replay from SD card is really special.  If some innovative boutique audio company could turn out a professionally finished SOTA standalone SD card transport for under $1000, I'd certainly be first in line.  Know anyone who might consider taking on that project ? (nice case, decent PSU, USB+BNC+I2S outputs, built in screen, navigate by Apple physical remote, no network connection)?

 

An SDTrans384 is by definition a VERY tweaky setup. While it will work as both a S/PDIF and I2S over HDMI source, it is best used as a dedicated source for a dedicated DAC with an I2S connections. NOT many companies are going to do that and almost ALL other implementations compromise the SQ available. The OTHER non-compromised setup uses a companion DAC designed and built by Chaiki (the guy who along with Bunpei developed the SDTrans384) that uses a non-standard I2S over HDMI with the clocks at the DAC as the master, transmitting the clock signals back to the SDTrans. That is the setup Bunpei showed a few posts back. 

 

How would it compare against the Mirus DAC SD Card player? Hard to tell without modifying one to feed either their SD Card Player or the SDTrans384. I doubt we'll ever see that comparison! I suspect well, but we'll likely never know.

 

In summary, I love mine. It is VERY GOOD. AND everything I've done with Ethernet-connected players have been definite 2nd places... though I'm still trying to elevate my sources to its level. 

 

BUT it has VERY serious limitations that few are going to put up with. I do so partly because I am a seriously tweaky audiophile AND because of just how good it sounds compared to everything else I have here. 

 

I won't be parting with mine anytime soon. BUT I SERIOUSLY DOUBT these will take the world by storm!

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

P.S. There are some DIY SD Card players available on EBay, mostly from China. I've looked at some of them, a couple of the super-tweaks (even more than me!) at TirNaHiFi have played with them, I have some to try and modify to see if I can at least match the SQ I get from the SDTrans384... and I don't have high hopes, they all have more powerful processors (more noise), poorer power supply networks, and compromised clocking schemes. Still I got 3 of these to play with for less than 1/3 the cost of my SDTrans384, so it's worth the effort.

 

 

[gstew]

On 9/20/2017 at 11:37 AM, Bunpei said:

 

Hi, Alex!

 

I appreciated your comment on SDTrans384.

Yes. Our SDTrans384 project has its origin in "Micro SD Card Transport" appeared in diyAudio Forum and it used to be a really "minimalist approach".

(The first and the second pictures.)

 

I am a system engineer who once developed software for an industrial measurement instrument with ADC/DAC devices. My initial idea was a DMA(Direct Memory Access) between a peripheral device and a memory.

Therefore, a DAC chip and a memory card consist minimum components.

 

However, the current status is shown in the third picture. At the end of several escalations, my player system, a combination of SDTrans384 (SD memory card transport) and ES9038PRO Dual Mono DAC board connected with LVDS/HDMI connector & cable, weighs more than 30 kg and located on two storied 60cm x 90cm wood boards. Approximately 95% of the total weight is of power supply circuits. Many selected components, such as NDK DuCULoN OCXO, CDE film capacitors, Evans Hybrid capacitors, Finemet-core transformers, Infineon SiC rectifiers and so on are used.

 

It is quite deviated from the initial "minimalist approach", actually.

I am satisfied with SQ of the system, though. I love a SD memory card player and have no plan to use a USB-based system so far.

 Bunpei,

 

Thanks for sharing on this thread. Your setups (as shown above and with Chaiki on the DIYAudio "Ess Sabre Reference DAC..." thread earlier this year) have come a long way since you last posted about it back in 2013 or so:

 

I also offer my meager by comparison setup:

 

 

I'm using 2 Uptone Audio LPS-1s with each going into one side of a dual paralleled LT3042 (4-per side) board which are then paralleled to feed the SDTrans. A 3rd LPS-1 feeds the input circuits of my DAC card, with the DAC itself powered via AC-connected power supplies.

 

Note that I do use 1 CDE polypropylene cap on the SDTrans... it along with a small paralleled supercap make a significant improvement in the unit's sonics. I'm very curious to learn more details about your setup (so that I may duplicate)... I'll PM you my email address if you don't mind.

 

Thanks for showing us how a serious reference digital setup is done!

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

P.S. How does your current SDTrans384 power setup compare to the solar-cell setup you shared on your thread on DIYAudio a few years back? I'm still considering an off-the-grid solar-cell/battery setup for my audio systems, inspired by those posts.

[gstew]

On 9/20/2017 at 7:07 PM, opus101 said:

 

Here is one example - https://www.thememoryplayer.net/defractionalized-memory

 

Interesting. Not the first time I've seen something like this.

 

Back 5 years or so, the small group of us using the cMP/cPlay computer music playback setups got deeply into radical and extreme system minimizations... a very global effort with contributors from Russian, India, Canada, Japan, the US, and a few countries I forget. We'd not only cut out all un-needed modules and DLLs from WinXP, but even modify the executables of the remaining modules to minimize their size by taking out un-needed functionality. The resulting 'minimized' WinXP op-system and executables took about 15Mb of space!

 

Two of the leaders of this effort, a guy from Russia who posted under the name of 'Steppe' and a guy from Japan who posted under 'Jack Wong', suggested defragmenting your drive and erasing all free space, then using a separate utility to erase the cluster tips. The idea was to have all files contiguous with no excess 'junk' between or after files, minimizing the size of the 'map' of the drive used by XP and the processing needed to access a file.

 

Of course, you only want to do this on a very static drive as you will need to redo it as you add files. AND in my system and to my ears, it made a very nice positive difference in that setup.

 

I'm sure to most this sounds crazy and smacks of 'confirmation bias'. Nottaprob, won't be the first time. AND like Barrows, I have trained myself and work hard to clearly hear the differences in changes in my setups AND be honest on whether they actually make a difference and whether it is positive, negative, or just different. I don't share as much about the negative things, but I run into almost as many of them as positive ones.

 

Greg in Mississippi

[Norton]

Is this similar to what Bughead does with "ReWrite data"?

[gstew]

5 minutes ago, Norton said:

Is this similar to what Bughead does with "ReWrite data"?

Norton,

 

I'm not that familiar with Bughead, but what I read about it suggested it was similar.

 

Greg in Mississippi