FORGETTING the Digital to Analog conversion part, what is BEST Digital source?

[beerandmusic]

6 hours ago, barrows said:

PS Audio DirectStream

Yea, i think of all the products that I 'know of" on the market today, the PS audio directstream seems to match my desires the most....price point being the exception....even there JR with trade-in allowance is a bit out of reach for me.  I am sure the chinese or some other country will bring something similar to market for under $1K some time.....actually now, i am thinking i may want to wait for a R2R dac with built in sd card slot for under $1K (grin)

[beerandmusic]

5 hours ago, barrows said:

  Sound quality is good on the Mirus Pro via SD card, but not better than the Signature Rendu SE via USB.

 

Really?  you have that much faith in the rendu product?  Obviously though that would depend on the dac it was feeding.  I may give it a shot and compare it to my existing method of rendering to a sony bluray player....yours does have the advantage of dsd out though....hmmm...

[beerandmusic]

4 hours ago, Norton said:

Not suggesting it as having universal appeal, but as an alternate point of view, actually I can easily imagine copying my library onto SD card.  Biggest current card is I think 512gb but probably too big to navigate, but I could easily cope with my library split over say 10 128gb cards ( I certainly find  64gb really easy to navigate).  But then again, it's not so much about managing a library as creating extracts from it.  It's great to have a large library instantly on hand, but  in reality what % of our libraries does each of us  actually listen to in a week?

 

No use of course if you listen to ad hoc playlist compilations of 3 minute tracks, but I'm sure there are others like me who listen to folder-based classical collections, where the hardship of selecting a new folder once ever so often is outweighed by the simplicity, reliability and most  of all potential SQ on offer from a SD card source.

 

 

 

 

My current library i widdled down to 512GB...had over 1TB (many dsd files).  I have no problems managing that much data, it is organized nicely...and they make 1tb sd cards.

[beerandmusic]

4 hours ago, barrows said:

 

, on Ravenna, my understanding is that Ravenna allows for any playback engine/software to work, if this is true it may be a really good solution.  It seems the only drawbacks may be price of the module and the fact that it appears to have somewhat more demanding network requirements than are normal for consumer home networks.  I guess we will see when the modules become fully available... 

 

I don't know of anything that would have more demanding network requirements than a wired gigabyte home network?  Come on ...

[beerandmusic]

4 hours ago, barrows said:

@Norton@Superdad, yeah, for my listening SD cards are just too fiddly.  While I mostly listen to entire albums, I am likely to go from Bach to Lorde to Tool in one listening session, so there is no way to assure that what i want to listen to next is going to be on the same SD card.  Plus I found navigating even a 32 Gb card a PIA compared to DLNA via Linn Kazoo.

Huh?  they make 1tb sd cards...my entire library would fit on a 512GB sd card, and i have no problems managing that much data?  Everything is organized by genre, then artist, then album...takes a couple seconds to find anything.

[beerandmusic]

3 hours ago, opus101 said:

 

Haven't investigated whether it ticks all your boxes but this one must be worth a shout - https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.11.76bf523lRovCl&id=36217520144&ns=1&abbucket=2#detail

The versions with the full metal jacket are 1150rmb, comfortably under $200. Under $100 if you don't care about what it looks like.

do they make an english version?  where do i buy it (grin)!

[beerandmusic]

3 hours ago, Charente said:

@fas42 Well described ... I'm always struggling to come up with a before/after description as the result of noise reduction ... this was so true when I recently went with a Balanced Power Supply to 'clean' up my mains.

I just use the word "cleaner".  I think noise equates to "fog".

[beerandmusic]

49 minutes ago, Norton said:

Beer, my best advice is just get hold of a Mirus on loan from somewhere,  try it in your system (inc SD card replay) and calibrate your expectations from there.

 

They are $6k new but if you end up liking  it you may be able to find a good deal on a used one  ( one went for $2.5k here and I've seen one modified to current spec go for a crazy £1800 on UK eBay.).

 

ouch, out of my budget even for a used one....may have to wait on the chinese for that one.

I think i can already know what to expect...no usb noise...a clean sound!  I have been playing with DLNA for well over 3 years..as much as i hate DLNA, it sounds best imho.

 

I want a dac with embedded sd card slot and ethernet for web browser play control...that supports high res and under $1500....then i will quit bothering this board.

 

[barrows]

2 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

don't know if it is noise or some other usb issue, but i swear every time i try s/pdif it sounds "cleaner".

Most of us have had the same experience if using a standard commercial computer as a source via USB, especially if the DAC in use has a really good SPDIF input.  This just indicates that the USB input in that DAC may not be so good, and a standard computer is a very noisy source.

If you build a SD card source, then how does that source connect to the DAC?  You still have the same problems, you have to get the data to the DAC somehow, and every way has its challenges, so you are trading problem for problem.  Every way can be done well, or poorly, but you do need to pay attention to whether it is done well or not.  I am confident in the performance of the Rendu products specifically because I have compared them directly to other sources, including the SD card reader on the Mirus Pro.  The SD card reader on the Mirus Pro does sounds great, but no better than the Signature Rendu SE.  this is an easy comparison to do if you have a Mirus Pro at hand with no cable swapping to get in the way of A/B switching.  If you really like the SD card approach, then a used Mirus might fit the bill.  One box solution which is nice as well.

I have not used Ravenna yet, but Chris C. has, please read his experiences with Ravenna on this site to learn more about its network requirements.  Ravenna sounds pretty promising to me, except for the expense (unknown at this time I believe)  For a DAC manufacturer to use it they must purchase the module for Merging, Merging is a Swiss company, and their DACs and ADCs come at premium prices, while being fairly ordinary (although well engineered for sure).  I suspect the Ravenna module will be fairly expensive to incorporate, enough so that it will not be seen in DACs under about $5K or so, but I cannot be sure yet.

@marce, on close coupling of components: I always remember John Atkinson's measurements of one of the MSB DACs, which stacked its DAC box directly on top of its separate power supply box: doing so induced AC frequency noise into the DACs analog output (the components in question were designed to be stacked this way), of course you may have been referring to HF noise re: chassis shielding.

[barrows]

2 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

I am sure the chinese or some other country will bring something similar to market for under $1K

Very unlikely.  The Chinese DACs are usually reversed engineered copies of existing products, unfortunately most of the interesting bits of the DirectStream are in the coding of the FPGA, maybe they could copy that, but I doubt they would bother.  They are better off copying DACs where they can just put a DAC chip in a box with some bits and bobs...

[barrows]

2 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

My current library i widdled down to 512GB...had over 1TB (many dsd files).  I have no problems managing that much data, it is organized nicely...and they make 1tb sd cards.

My library is not huge, currently about 2TB, but it is also always growing, not getting whittled down!  With the Mirus Pro I do not think you can use Foobar as shown here for management, it is kinda of slow to get through a bunch of albums to find what you are looking for.  I could not live with that after the experiencing the convenience of DLNA with Linn Kazoo app.  But it may be OK for you.

[beerandmusic]

11 minutes ago, barrows said:

Most of us have had the same experience if using a standard commercial computer as a source via USB, especially if the DAC in use has a really good SPDIF input.  This just indicates that the USB input in that DAC may not be so good, and a standard computer is a very noisy source.

@marce

 

Don't know how to measure the quality of the usb input, but i bought this dac specifically because it has galvanic isolation (wyred4sound dac1v2).  I don't doubt my regular pc has lots of usb noise, as it is not optimized in any way, and reason i wanted to try a dac with galvanic isolation.

 

[beerandmusic]

17 minutes ago, barrows said:

If you build a SD card source, then how does that source connect to the DAC?  You still have the same problems, you have to get the data to the DAC somehow, and every way has its challenges, so you are trading problem for problem.  Every way can be done well, or poorly, but you do need to pay attention to whether it is done well or not.

I want a device (whether you want to call it a dac w/sd slot, or a sd player with embedded dac) in one box.  If PS directstream can do with ethernet, i see no reason you can't do it with sdcard.  I know you have stated that they should be in separate boxes, and i understand your reasoning, i just "believe' it can be engineered well in one box, and at a low cost point....it's just a matter of time imho.

[marce]

Galvanic isolation DOES NOT mean noise isolation, many moons ago I posted a layout that shows what has to be done for noise isolation (it was in reference to the Jitterbugs terrible layout) which has been copied once or twice... But galvanic is to isolate direct current flow paths it can still let noise through if not implemented properly.

[beerandmusic]

23 minutes ago, barrows said:

I am confident in the performance of the Rendu products specifically because I have compared them directly to other sources, including the SD card reader on the Mirus Pro.  The SD card reader on the Mirus Pro does sounds great, but no better than the Signature Rendu SE.  this is an easy comparison to do if you have a Mirus Pro at hand with no cable swapping to get in the way of A/B switching.  If you really like the SD card approach, then a used Mirus might fit the bill.  One box solution which is nice as well.

 

Your solution may be good for me, but the only thing i don't like about it is access method...I have to use DLNA, right?  It's not that cumbersome, but would be nicer if you could be accessed from a web browser.

Well, I am back to using DLNA (just recently) after a 1.5 year gap, so maybe i will give the rendu a go.  I am getting decent sq using sony bluray as dlna renderer (coax out to the w4s dac), but i do lose DSD this way.  Your usb out, would give me DSD back....soo...maybe...i really haven't checked your product at all...i just wasn't sure what it would offer over the TEAC NT503 i was using before....but at least it would allow me to decide which dac to use with it, where if I used the TEAC as a renderer, i was using it's dac, which seemed a "little boring", not sure why, but perhaps it was in comparison to a schiit dac. 

[beerandmusic]

3 minutes ago, marce said:

Galvanic isolation DOES NOT mean noise isolation, many moons ago I posted a layout that shows what has to be done for noise isolation (it was in reference to the Jitterbugs terrible layout) which has been copied once or twice... But galvanic is to isolate direct current flow paths it can still let noise through if not implemented properly.

hmmm...i thought galvanic isolation separated the noisy 5v bus.

If not so in your opinion, what "toy" does work if i have a noisy usb? 

S/pdif sounds great, so maybe a Schiit Eitr, but then i lose DSD capability...

[beerandmusic]

38 minutes ago, barrows said:

I have not used Ravenna yet, but Chris C. has, please read his experiences with Ravenna on this site to learn more about its network requirements.  Ravenna sounds pretty promising to me, except for the expense (unknown at this time I believe)  For a DAC manufacturer to use it they must purchase the module for Merging, Merging is a Swiss company, and their DACs and ADCs come at premium prices, while being fairly ordinary (although well engineered for sure).  I suspect the Ravenna module will be fairly expensive to incorporate, enough so that it will not be seen in DACs under about $5K or so, but I cannot be sure yet.

@marce, on close coupling of components: I always remember John Atkinson's measurements of one of the MSB DACs, which stacked its DAC box directly on top of its separate power supply box: doing so induced AC frequency noise into the DACs analog output (the components in question were designed to be stacked this way), of course you may have been referring to HF noise re: chassis shielding.

believe me, if the ravenna will be $5k, that idea has already been erased from my mind, and i probably even mis-spelled it (Grin)....(I will never have any intention of spending over $2k for source, and anything over $1500 would really have to reign DRAMATICALLY better at a whole new level).  I truly believe that an "all-in-one source/dac" is on the horizon for under $1K that will be better than anything on the market today, although will be bad-mouthed by marketing.  Look at the oppo 205 as example.    Something along the design of A tweaked sonica with an sd card in a dual mono design...and that is Alexa enabled with a web browser interface.

[beerandmusic]

39 minutes ago, barrows said:

Very unlikely.  The Chinese DACs are usually reversed engineered copies of existing products, unfortunately most of the interesting bits of the DirectStream are in the coding of the FPGA, maybe they could copy that, but I doubt they would bother.  They are better off copying DACs where they can just put a DAC chip in a box with some bits and bobs...

The Japanese NT503 has ethernet and can upsample everything to DSD rates and is under $1K.  Really not a bad product.

[marce]

42 minutes ago, barrows said:

 

@marce, on close coupling of components: I always remember John Atkinson's measurements of one of the MSB DACs, which stacked its DAC box directly on top of its separate power supply box: doing so induced AC frequency noise into the DACs analog output (the components in question were designed to be stacked this way), of course you may have been referring to HF noise re: chassis shielding.

Bad design or lack of EMC testing... Not good.

[beerandmusic]

38 minutes ago, barrows said:

My library is not huge, currently about 2TB, but it is also always growing, not getting whittled down!  With the Mirus Pro I do not think you can use Foobar as shown here for management, it is kinda of slow to get through a bunch of albums to find what you are looking for.  I could not live with that after the experiencing the convenience of DLNA with Linn Kazoo app.  But it may be OK for you.

I am pretty sure that I have configured foobar in past to work with dlna server (e.g. minim server)...so i would think could be used with Mirus Pro.  I really don't think finding any album or song in a couple seconds...on any size library would be an issue.

[marce]

15 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

hmmm...i thought galvanic isolation separated the noisy 5v bus.

If not so in your opinion, what "toy" does work if i have a noisy usb? 

S/pdif sounds great, so maybe a Schiit Eitr, but then i lose DSD capability...

From the internet:

Galvanic isolation is a principle of isolating functional sections of electrical systems to prevent current flow; no direct conduction path is permitted.

 

Even though its touted around a lot on audio sites at the moment on its own it DOES NOT mean noise isolation. I can only comment on the noise isolation if I can see the interface, either a photo of the layout, Gerber information or some other visual check. Off which I would do for free.

[beerandmusic]

10 minutes ago, marce said:

From the internet:

Galvanic isolation is a principle of isolating functional sections of electrical systems to prevent current flow; no direct conduction path is permitted.

 

Even though its touted around a lot on audio sites at the moment on its own it DOES NOT mean noise isolation. I can only comment on the noise isolation if I can see the interface, either a photo of the layout, Gerber information or some other visual check. Off which I would do for free.

 

I am not electronic engineer, so work with me, but ...

 

If a usb cable carries the noisy 5v on 1 pin and the binary data on other pins, and the 5v is CUT or isolated, such that only the binary data is going to the dac, i would "think" that effectively the noise is eliminated?  but maybe the noise is still entering the dac, as the 5v is not isolated until after the noise is already in the dac....maybe one of those usb toys is necessary....but way before i would buy a "usb toy", i would decide on ethernet or sd card which I am already leaning toward....i refuse to buy a usb toy.  Maybe Schiit's gen5 circuitry (converts usb->spdif at input) is the right answer....the multibit gungnir is another option i am considering...but then i lose DSD.

[opus101]

9 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

If a usb cable carries the noisy 5v on 1 pin and the binary data on other pins, and the 5v is CUT or isolated, such that only the binary data is going to the dac, i would "think" that effectively the noise is eliminated?

 

The noise you want to eliminate is carried on *all* the conductors of the USB cable - data, power and 0V. Snipping just one barely moves the needle.

[mourip]

18 hours ago, barrows said:

...So, if you wan to get an Ethernet DAC, and have decided to spend much more money, and can live without DSD or sample rates above 192 PCM, get the Klimax and be happy.

 

...Or go the Dante route and for under $1K get a Focusrite RN3 ethernet to SPDIF converter. It does limit you to 24/192 but handles RedBook so well that I doubt you will miss DSD. It does require a computer running their Dante Virtual Soundcard. In my system it easily surpassed a very well tweaked USB chain. If you want to get wild and crazy you can use fiber optic ethernet converters to really isolate the RN3 from your PC.

[beerandmusic]

12 minutes ago, opus101 said:

 

The noise you want to eliminate is carried on *all* the conductors of the USB cable - data, power and 0V. Snipping just one barely moves the needle.

 

so does galvanic isolation in the w4s dac1v2 do that or no?

would a schiit gungnir multibit do that with it's usbgen5 circuitry?

or should i just go with ethernet or s/pdif if i refuse to buy a "usb toy"?