FORGETTING the Digital to Analog conversion part, what is BEST Digital source?

[barrows]

21 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

yea, i don't want to have to use a phone...i suppose i could aways use jriver, upplay, foobar on windows....i am basically doing the same thing as the renderer in your example but using a sony bluray player as the renderer with bluray coax out to dac....sounds decent.

Yeah, if you prefer not to use  phone or tablet via Wifi you can control things via a computer on the network using JRiver, Roon, or LMS, etc.

[barrows]

8 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

schiit's marketing says the eitr does it, and i thought galvanically isolated dacs do as well?

None of this is absolute.  Well done galvaniccally isolated USB inputs are certainly recommended, but the isolation is still not perfect and some of this noise gets through.  My DAC has a fully isolated, floating USB input, but still sounds better when a lot of attention is paid to reducing noise of the USB source.  Never think of "isolation" as being absolute, there is no perfect "isolation". 

[barrows]

I love the DS DAC, I have had a couple of them come through my hands and have listened to them quite a bit.  I would recommend them without the built in ethernet input and using a separate Ethernet renderer for all of the reasons previously stated.  But if you have the opportunity you should try it at home either way to decide for yourself.

[beerandmusic]

10 minutes ago, barrows said:

I love the DS DAC, I have had a couple of them come through my hands and have listened to them quite a bit.  I would recommend them without the built in ethernet input and using a separate Ethernet renderer for all of the reasons previously stated.  But if you have the opportunity you should try it at home either way to decide for yourself.

DS DAC as in Korg? 

[barrows]

3 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

DS DAC as in Korg? 

PS Audio DirectStream

[Superdad]

9 hours ago, barrows said:

Ultimately I think that yes, Ethernet input DACs have the potential to be great.  The problem is the computing power necessary to receive Ethernet transmissions (especially hi res audio) is much higher than that required to receive USB audio, so with Ethernet you have to have a powerful computer processor in the DAC.

 

Well that's not entirely true Barrows.  

The same XMOS chips popularly used for USB have full Ethernet capabilities built in.  The reasons Ethernet input DACs are not as ubiquitous as USB models mostly revolve around software issues.

 

John and I had a project going for a long time (https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/22233-uptoneswenson-usbgtethernet-audio-bridge/?do=findComment&comment=378400) that would have overcome that with a two-part solution, but we back-burnered it for some faster-to-market things (and to free him up more for Rendu development ).

In fact, we had a mutual NDA in place with Ayre as Charlie was pretty hot to license it for the QX-5.   But we were not able to come close to making the dates and so he went with a conventional DLNA-type renderer board (the mConnect module from Conversdigital), which indeed has more of a full processor on it--and hey it is Roon-ready as so many seem to want.

 

Of course many have been hailing AES67/Ravenna as being poised to take over and proliferate Ethernet DACs everywhere.  But it still comes right back to software and lack of built-in operating system support for Ethernet VSC (virtual sound card).

Until that really happens, the firms like Sonore--producing fine network renderer endpoints with customized and supported s/w choices to utilize them--will still have a ready market.

 

(Of course this has little relation to @beerandmusic's idle quest for the holy grail of DAC and source that meets whatever criteria he imagines is important today.   I bet if Chris gave out an award for most threads started in a two-month period, B&M would have a landslide victory...)

 

--Alex C.

 

P.S.  Surprised nobody mentioned the SDTrans384 microSD player.  That's a really minimalist source that some swear by.  Where is @Bunpei? 

 

[Norton]

58 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

 

 

P.S.  Surprised nobody mentioned the SDTrans384 microSD player.  That's a really minimalist source that some swear by.  Where is @Bunpei? 

 

Funnily enough, I was going  to suggest a minimalist SD card transport direct to DAC as likely the best digital source purely in  SQ terms.  The SD trans is still a bit too DIY for me, but I've had a loan  Mirus DAC  in my system for the last fortnight and the replay from SD card is really special.  If some innovative boutique audio company could turn out a professionally finished SOTA standalone SD card transport for under $1000, I'd certainly be first in line.  Know anyone who might consider taking on that project ? (nice case, decent PSU, USB+BNC+I2S outputs, built in screen, navigate by Apple physical remote, no network connection)?

[barrows]

Hey Alex,

 

So you are suggesting that even the older XMOS is capable of this, and to what sample rates?  I know the newer XMOS chips have a lot more processing power and hence use a lot more power (equates to noise), but the original versions cannot do nearly as mush, and to what sample rates?  Even Convers can only do 192 PCM, which is really limited these days with people demanding DSD256, sometimes via DoP (so 752.8 PCM).  What I have seen from other solutions people have, without a quite powerful processor is limited in capabilities.  For customers to buy in I feel one needs wide ranging support for ROON RAAT, DLNA, HQPlayer NAA, and sample rates to at least 384 PCM and DSD256 native, if not DSD 512.  Or was you approach much more minimal?  Without universal support for all these approaches one risks leaving behind a lot of customers.

Every Ethernet interface I have worked with has always used at least twice the power of a USB interface, even ones limited to 24/192?  Although the newer XMOS (I think it is the X-208?) does seem to need more juice itself.

 

On the SDtrans, I am well aware of that approach, but it is too tweaky for most these days.  I have a Resonessence Mirus PRO DAC at home right now and it has a built in SD card player, but the user experience is too far from the convenience which most are used to gain much acceptance.  A library on SD cards is hard to imagine managing.  Sound quality is good on the Mirus Pro via SD card, but not better than the Signature Rendu SE via USB.

[barrows]

10 minutes ago, barrows said:

delete, its late here on the east coast, Maine.

 

[Norton]

Not suggesting it as having universal appeal, but as an alternate point of view, actually I can easily imagine copying my library onto SD card.  Biggest current card is I think 512gb but probably too big to navigate, but I could easily cope with my library split over say 10 128gb cards ( I certainly find  64gb really easy to navigate).  But then again, it's not so much about managing a library as creating extracts from it.  It's great to have a large library instantly on hand, but  in reality what % of our libraries does each of us  actually listen to in a week?

 

No use of course if you listen to ad hoc playlist compilations of 3 minute tracks, but I'm sure there are others like me who listen to folder-based classical collections, where the hardship of selecting a new folder once ever so often is outweighed by the simplicity, reliability and most  of all potential SQ on offer from a SD card source.

 

 

 

 

[barrows]

@Norton, yeah, for my listening SD cards are just too fiddly.  While I mostly listen to entire albums, I am likely to go from Bach to Lorde to Tool in one listening session, so there is no way to assure that what i want to listen to next is going to be on the same SD card.  Plus I found navigating even a 32 Gb card a PIA compared to DLNA via Linn Kazoo.  I am not willing to take a step back for no apparent sonic gain either, but perhaps not everyone is having the SQ I already have via DLNA.

 

@Superdad, on Ravenna, my understanding is that Ravenna allows for any playback engine/software to work, if this is true it may be a really good solution.  It seems the only drawbacks may be price of the module and the fact that it appears to have somewhat more demanding network requirements than are normal for consumer home networks.  I guess we will see when the modules become fully available... 

[fas42]

4 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

my understanding is that the noise affects SQ in fairly subtle ways, before you would hear it as noise per se

 

Exactly. You don't hear hiss, or glitching noises - it's an overall degrading of the quality, causing the sparkle and perceived life of the recording to be well below par; consider a pane of glass from a window that steadily builds up a solid film of muck, which you never notice settling. Of course, you can still see through it, you feel you have full visibility - until, one day, someone thoroughly cleans it ...

 

This is the "rejuvenation" that can be made to happen - all of a sudden, those "terrible" recordings sound "fabulous!" ; because the grime that the playback system has been smearing everything with is no longer there.

[Charente]

@fas42 Well described ... I'm always struggling to come up with a before/after description as the result of noise reduction ... this was so true when I recently went with a Balanced Power Supply to 'clean' up my mains.

[marce]

10 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

 

1. When you say "fed by an external ethernet renderer"

would a Synology NAS serve that purpose well?

 

2. and "at some distance" from the DAC, what would you recommend?  Don't they normally recommend short usb cables?  3',  6', longer?

 

P.S.  I do highly regard your input, so please don't think that just because I am questioning you a lot, that I do not trust you... (wink)

The noise travels down the cables, for radiated its not going to come out of the case unless it is a true audiophile design.

[marce]

7 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

if noise wasn't an issue, then there would be no need for "usb toys" or special cables.

It is stated that there is zero issue with the transfer of the digital file.

I don't need a special cable to copy a bit perfect file to an external hard drive via the usb port.

The dacs should be able to implement a way to receive the file perfectly regardless of the cable and discard the noise...so that all is left is the designer's method of guestimating the analog out.

WELL!

[opus101]

2 hours ago, Norton said:

  If some innovative boutique audio company could turn out a professionally finished SOTA standalone SD card transport for under $1000, I'd certainly be first in line.  Know anyone who might consider taking on that project ? (nice case, decent PSU, USB+BNC+I2S outputs, built in screen, navigate by Apple physical remote, no network connection)?

 

Haven't investigated whether it ticks all your boxes but this one must be worth a shout - https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.11.76bf523lRovCl&id=36217520144&ns=1&abbucket=2#detail

The versions with the full metal jacket are 1150rmb, comfortably under $200. Under $100 if you don't care about what it looks like.

[Norton]

42 minutes ago, opus101 said:

 

Haven't investigated whether it ticks all your boxes but this one must be worth a shout - https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.11.76bf523lRovCl&id=36217520144&ns=1&abbucket=2#detail

The versions with the full metal jacket are 1150rmb, comfortably under $200. Under $100 if you don't care about what it looks like.

Thanks, that does  look cute.  The Perspex example even looks a bit like my DNM amps.  Can't quite work out what's going on there, the board in the Perspex case looks different from the bare board.

[beerandmusic]

5 hours ago, Superdad said:

@beerandmusic

 

 

P.S.  Surprised nobody mentioned the SDTrans384 microSD player.  That's a really minimalist source that some swear by.  Where is @Bunpei? 

 

 

I was going to suggest a sdcard dac.  I don't know for whatever reason, but I think i get REALLY good sound using a dsd file on a flash drive plugged into a usb port on a sony blu-ray player, and I was thinking after reading about how big sd cards are getting lately (1tb now), that a SDcard dac, would probably be really good with low power requirements.  I am sure there are people that have larger libraries, but i would be happy to live with a 1tb library.  I actually dumped a lot of my unused DSD files to get to under 500GB. 

 

Think, no dlna, no usb noise....I think that is a great idea.

 

A dac may also be able to be benefited having an sd card as a buffering device?

[beerandmusic]

5 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

@beerandmusic.   I bet if Chris gave out an award for most threads started in a two-month period, B&M would have a landslide victory...)

 

-@Bunpei

 

I can't argue with you there, this board seems to go noticeably dead whenever i go away...Did you know that Chris actually pays me to stir the pot with engineers and vendors once every 3 months...

 

Don't worry though, i have sucked a lot of information, and will be silently disappearing in another month....i have a few more topics I need to start though before I will be ready to go.

[beerandmusic]

5 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Well that's not entirely true Barrows.  

The same XMOS chips popularly used for USB have full Ethernet capabilities built in.  The reasons Ethernet input DACs are not as ubiquitous as USB models mostly revolve around software issues.

 

John and I had a project going for a long time (https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/22233-uptoneswenson-usbgtethernet-audio-bridge/?do=findComment&comment=378400) that would have overcome that with a two-part solution, but we back-burnered it for some faster-to-market things (and to free him up more for Rendu development ).

In fact, we had a mutual NDA in place with Ayre as Charlie was pretty hot to license it for the QX-5.   But we were not able to come close to making the dates and so he went with a conventional DLNA-type renderer board (the mConnect module from Conversdigital), which indeed has more of a full processor on it--and hey it is Roon-ready as so many seem to want.

 

Of course many have been hailing AES67/Ravenna as being poised to take over and proliferate Ethernet DACs everywhere.  But it still comes right back to software and lack of built-in operating system support for Ethernet VSC (virtual sound card).

Until that really happens, the firms like Sonore--producing fine network renderer endpoints with customized and supported s/w choices to utilize them--will still have a ready market.

 

(Of course this has little relation to @beerandmusic's idle quest for the holy grail of DAC and source that meets whatever criteria he imagines is important today.   I bet if Chris gave out an award for most threads started in a two-month period, B&M would have a landslide victory...)

 

--Alex C.

 

P.S.  Surprised nobody mentioned the SDTrans384 microSD player.  That's a really minimalist source that some swear by.  Where is @Bunpei? 

 

thanks for this info...i was wondering what I was waiting for, and towards beginning of post, it seemed what I may want to wait for next is "AES67/Ravenna", but I really like the idea of an sd card source device...DLNA is cumbersome...although it sounds great.

 

Now if we can get a player DAC which utilizes a sd card, but also has an ethernet port so we could control and play music from a web browser (fck subscription room) , and a reputable r2r dac, i would be in heaven!!   no need for usb isolation, no dlna....

 

Come on engineers, you got my $1500 if you can do that.

[beerandmusic]

4 hours ago, Norton said:

Funnily enough, I was going  to suggest a minimalist SD card transport direct to DAC as likely the best digital source purely in  SQ terms.  The SD trans is still a bit too DIY for me, but I've had a loan  Mirus DAC  in my system for the last fortnight and the replay from SD card is really special.  If some innovative boutique audio company could turn out a professionally finished SOTA standalone SD card transport for under $1000, I'd certainly be first in line.  Know anyone who might consider taking on that project ? (nice case, decent PSU, USB+BNC+I2S outputs, built in screen, navigate by Apple physical remote, no network connection)?

Just read your post after responding myself about an sdcard dac....looks like time to start another thread...need to wake up the engineers!

[Norton]

17 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

Just read your post after responding myself about an sdcard dac....looks like time to start another thread...need to wake up the engineers!

Beer, my best advice is just get hold of a Mirus on loan from somewhere,  try it in your system (inc SD card replay) and calibrate your expectations from there.

 

They are $6k new but if you end up liking  it you may be able to find a good deal on a used one  ( one went for $2.5k here and I've seen one modified to current spec go for a crazy £1800 on UK eBay.).

 

Of course the downside is that you will be so satisfied that you'll stop generating all the threads that I'm sure Chris must be paying you handsomely for here...

 

 

[mansr]

9 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

if noise wasn't an issue, then there would be no need for "usb toys" or special cables.

It is yet to be shown that those widgets actually do anything beneficial for the analogue output outside a few pathological cases.

[beerandmusic]

5 hours ago, barrows said:

A library on SD cards is hard to imagine managing.  

 

a 1tb sd card should suffice for most...but for the heavy hitters, perhaps a 4 bay sd card reader (grin).

[beerandmusic]

5 minutes ago, mansr said:

It is yet to be shown that those widgets actually do anything beneficial for the analogue output outside a few pathological cases.

I don't know if it is noise or some other usb issue, but i swear every time i try s/pdif it sounds "cleaner".

Also I get "cleaner" sound from playing from a flash drive in a usb port (without the pc) from bluray player, so i suspect "noise" is an issue, and I have difficult time believing all the engineers complain about noise if it was not an issue...not to mention many who swear that they hear noticeable improvements with "usb toys".   I don't even know why there are people that still suggest noise is not an issue...jmo