FORGETTING the Digital to Analog conversion part, what is BEST Digital source?

[seeteeyou]

On 1/8/2018 at 7:54 AM, gstew said:

@seeteeyou,

 

Thanks for the great SD card player references. I've been considering either a Pulsar or a DuCuLon clock for mine, these are good resources.

 

Have you seen any other comments on that alternative player? It looks more complex... I still think that is one of the things that makes the SDTran384 work so well, it is such a simple system compared to any other electronically-stored media player. But it is always good to check on alternatives. 

 

I also found the separate PSU links interesting. I will say that in my experience, it is VERY important to have the regulators as close as possible to the powered circuit... as a short-term measure, I am considering replacing the several 3.3V & one 1.2V ADP150 regulators on the SDTrans with LP5907s... a pin-compatible and good upgrade in every situation where I've done that. Later I will likely go for add-on LT3045 boards, mounted right on each regulator bypass point. Ultimately I will likely go to the float-charged LiFePO4's (as on TirNaHiFi) or Ultracaps (as by ABartels and BBallas on HeadFi).

 

Later!

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

@gstew,

You're very welcomed. I only read just a little bit about that here and it's from March 2017

 

http://www.1pekingroad.com/zaspx/replies.aspx?topicsno=4&subjectno=4934&uppersubjectno=4934

Quote

One particular interesting story is:   

There is this MJ USB (memory card) player, thats made by a friend, and is available for merely JPY 30,000. Will have more on this...in the next few posts. (^V^)

 

Quote

Its an all in one music player that employs usb memory card as a storage medium for avoiding the use of noisy PC. Powered by batteries too.

Can hook up to your HDD or SSD as well.

Using latest input chip from Rohm -BM94803AEKU, (DSD reproduction comes direct from this chip?)

DAC: ESS9018K2m

Able to replay up to 192KHz/24 bit PCM, and 5.6Mhz DSD

File formats: WAV, Flac, dsdiff, dsf

Outputs: headphone/ line, spdif, i2S

Price: JPY 30,000

Size: 6 cm x 9.5cm

And then there's also something about SDTrans384
 

Quote

To me...this is one of the highlights in the event!

An sd card player...an extraordinary one!

Sdtrans384 sd card player with i2s signal synced via hdmi cable to the new 9018 pro based dac...rest in the photo are..... regulated power supplies!

And, NDK Duculon xtals being employed...best in noise performance money can buy...yes thats about~ usd1000..but worth it!

Wow, this is the best digital source I have encountered! So much dense information, yet.smooth, and you.could say.very analog like.

Its very best, and yes I am biased too, as I own a standard level set as well...(^V^)

Now I'm waiting for CFT to post his report from MJ Magazine Audio Festival 2018, though I also found a few blog posts by someone in Japan. He happened to make one DAC with NZ2520SD plus another one with DuCULon, the difference should be quite significant

http://asoyaji.blogspot.com/2018/02/mj.html
http://asoyaji.blogspot.com/2018/03/mj.html
http://asoyaji.blogspot.com/2018/03/blog-post.html

LT3045 in series seemed to be the way to go since I already read plenty of positive experiences. We'll need 1.2V / 2.5V / 3.3V and most likely we could get them from Alexey @ http://www.ldovr.com .

I wish that he could also make something just like this Mezzanine Power board for SDTrans384 instead

http://www.ldovr.com/product-p/mpower.htm

Either Pulsar or DuCULon should be our best bet, and Pulsar could have an edge in terms of placing a pair of them directly on top of the standard DIL14 clock sockets without resorting to short cables.

In other words, stuff like Dual XO II from Ian or Cronus from Twisted Pear Audio should be good to go

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ddc-digital-usb-interfaces-xmos-or-amanero-combo384-based-raspberry-pi-hifiberry-dac-pro-reviews-comparison-modifications-and-usb-audio-in-general.797881/page-12#post-12447972
https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2012/03/21/ians-i2s-fifo-re-clocker-single-digit-psec-jitter/

Of course we still have to deal with the quality of those cables when we're connecting the clock board to other components. That's really something I don't even know where to begin. How do we actually find quality cables and what about the impedance? We certainly don't wanna pay so much for a pair of clocks while degrading the performance because of cheap cables.

The dimensions of DuCULon are 47.2 x 47.0 x 28.5 mm and a size like that wouldn't be any good for DIL14 sockets @ 17.7 x 4.6 x 10.14 mm

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/dil-sockets/0813121/

Not sure why but I could see quite a few fairly long cables that were coming outta DuCuLon, what were they smoking?

http://asoyaji.blogspot.com/2018/02/asoyajidac.html
http://asoyaji.blogspot.com/2017/06/blog-post.html
http://asoyaji.blogspot.com/2015/06/duculon.html

Now we could actually get LT3045 @ 5A from Stammheim but somehow they're going for TPS7A4700 instead.

---

 

BTW, how would you build an "ultimate" Raspberry Pi or Sparky rig? It's gonna be so much fun to have DuCULon-powered Kali plus one of those I2S isolators from Allo or Ian. Besides, they're also listing the power requirements of Compute Module 3 with their carrier board here

 

http://blog.ratocsystems.com/wp/2017/05/23/16/
 

[marce]

If you must put your clock on a separate board! the to get the clock to its destination with the best signal integrity requires a very well controlled impedance interface from clock to source. Use a system that has SMA or U.FL connectors, with a 50R cable assembly such as this Hirose one for U.FL

http://uk.farnell.com/hirose-hrs/w-fl-2lp-04n2-a-100/cable-assembly-w-fl-de-100mm/dp/1325918?mckv=L80a0VMS_dc|pcrid|78108355389|&gross_price=true&CATCI=aud-294759717834:pla-131286859989&CAAGID=20220685749&CMP=KNC-GUK-GEN-SHOPPING-HIROSE_HRS&CAGPSPN=pla&gclid=CjwKCAjw7tfVBRB0EiwAiSYGM12UDFjh94XI1UDOZH1PiDf8x1ESjHyKTqvL7SxUaRaKneAjZFXm0xoCkFMQAvD_BwE&CAWELAID=120173390000020566

Distance is not your friend with clock signals, so the shorter the path taken the better, BUT it must be a controlled 50R impedance path with no discontinuities, anything other than the correct connectors, any impedance mismatch will have a severe detrimental effect on the clock signal.

The DIY Audio link has cables listed...

The problem is modding the destination PCB for the external clock, this where it tends to go wrong with the signal cable and the return being split, adding a huge impedance mismatch.

[nbpf]

On 3/24/2018 at 9:52 AM, seeteeyou said:

 

@gstew,

...
I wish that he could also make something just like this Mezzanine Power board for SDTrans384 instead

http://www.ldovr.com/product-p/mpower.htm

...

Interesting, I was not aware of the Mezzanine. Do you know which modules need to be installed on the Mezzanine to power an Allo DigiOne? And is the Mezzanine a meaningful way to power an RPi + DigiOne combo? Thanks, nbpf

[*progear]

Looking at the consumer audio market it does not come as much of a surprise to me that USB seems to be predominant in computer audio.  Even some dedicated streamers would go that path, so why should anyone doubt that there is anything beyond USB? Quite a number of pro solutions can be ruled out for consumer use for a number of reasons, I guess most of them well discussed on this forum.

Then again, a LAN port comes as standard with just about any computer on the market, thus audio over IP may one day gain in popularity among audiophiles, I think.

And this is why: a couple of months ago a Dante module for the Lynx Hilo arrived at the studio. The Hilo so far had been fed via USB, not so much because we believed in USB superiority over Thunderbolt, but because we wanted the DAC to work with any computer customers could possibly bring along. With the Dante module installed, the Hilo sounded an awful lot better. This made us even more interested in Dante, so we ordered some inexpensive boards from Swiss Micromedia. See here: https://www.micromedia.ch/?portfolio=dante-aoip-stereo-maker-boards

From my experience so far I can recommend Dante as the way to go for ambitious audiophiles. It certainly is not as easy to set up as some usb chain; one does not need to be an IT expert, either, but knowledge of how to set up TC/IP and the choice of PC hardware comes in handy. With Dante switching samplerates is manual and with the Micromedia boards there is a limit at 24/96, but these inexpensive DIO boards blow the best USB converters I know out of the water, including the likes of Mutec and Singxer.

The Micromedia boards are certainly a good starting point, there is more advanced gear out there, e. g. from Lynx or Merging.

Therefore I think the best digital source for audiophiles at this point is a Mac (preference) or a PC with a quality LAN port running Dante Virtual Soundcard.

[asdf1000]

2 hours ago, *progear said:

And this is why: a couple of months ago a Dante module for the Lynx Hilo arrived at the studio. The Hilo so far had been fed via USB, not so much because we believed in USB superiority over Thunderbolt, but because we wanted the DAC to work with any computer customers could possibly bring along. With the Dante module installed, the Hilo sounded an awful lot better. This made us even more interested in Dante, so we ordered some inexpensive boards from Swiss Micromedia

 

Hi thanks for sharing some info from the Pro side.

 

Is there any technical reason why you didn't just add the Lynx LT-DANTE LSlot to the Hilo? And use the Hilo's existing outputs? 

 

https://www.lynxstudio.com/products/lslot/lynx-lt-dante/

 

Or just cost reasons?

 

And how exactly did you integrate the Micromedia boards with the Hilo?

 

Cheers!

 

 

[*progear]

7 hours ago, Em2016 said:

Is there any technical reason why you didn't just add the Lynx LT-DANTE LSlot to the Hilo? And use the Hilo's existing outputs?

 

That is the module we installed, we also use Hilo's outputs. 

 

The Micromedia boards have been used to retrofit other equipment, e. g. we used a Micromedia – Digimedia DAC XLR to equip a quality headphone amp with Dante connectivity.

In the process we also found that the Micromedia – Digimedia DIO boards are of excellent sound quality and can be used to feed AES or spdif to a dac - and that is the application a lot of audiophiles may be looking for. As I said above, these things are cheap and they blow the best USB converters I know out of the water.

[asdf1000]

2 minutes ago, *progear said:

As I said above, these things are cheap and they blow the best USB converters I know out of the water.

 

Thanks, yes that was noted.

 

Which of the better USB converters have you used/tried, if you don't mind me asking?

[*progear]

35 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

Which of the better USB converters have you used/tried, if you don't mind me asking?

 

Well, I don’t mind.

We have a Mutec MC3+ USB and I have compared this unit to the Artistic Fidelity AFI at our studio when a colleague paid me a visit.

Somebody also made me listen to a modded Singxer F1(?), but I was not familiar with the rest of the chain.

All of these converters did pretty well; the Mutec will remain my fist choice since it is a multifunctional tool in the studio. In fact, we also have the earlier MC3+ without USB and nobody really misses the USB functionality.

 

[One and a half]

2 hours ago, *progear said:

 

That is the module we installed, we also use Hilo's outputs. 

 

The Micromedia boards have been used to retrofit other equipment, e. g. we used a Micromedia – Digimedia DAC XLR to equip a quality headphone amp with Dante connectivity.

In the process we also found that the Micromedia – Digimedia DIO boards are of excellent sound quality and can be used to feed AES or spdif to a dac - and that is the application a lot of audiophiles may be looking for. As I said above, these things are cheap and they blow the best USB converters I know out of the water.

Point me in the direction of any pro gear (not Merging) that accepts DSD and there may be some interest. 

[mourip]

13 hours ago, *progear said:

Looking at the consumer audio market it does not come as much of a surprise to me that USB seems to be predominant in computer audio.  Even some dedicated streamers would go that path, so why should anyone doubt that there is anything beyond USB? Quite a number of pro solutions can be ruled out for consumer use for a number of reasons, I guess most of them well discussed on this forum.

Then again, a LAN port comes as standard with just about any computer on the market, thus audio over IP may one day gain in popularity among audiophiles, I think.

And this is why: a couple of months ago a Dante module for the Lynx Hilo arrived at the studio. The Hilo so far had been fed via USB, not so much because we believed in USB superiority over Thunderbolt, but because we wanted the DAC to work with any computer customers could possibly bring along. With the Dante module installed, the Hilo sounded an awful lot better. This made us even more interested in Dante, so we ordered some inexpensive boards from Swiss Micromedia. See here: https://www.micromedia.ch/?portfolio=dante-aoip-stereo-maker-boards

From my experience so far I can recommend Dante as the way to go for ambitious audiophiles. It certainly is not as easy to set up as some usb chain; one does not need to be an IT expert, either, but knowledge of how to set up TC/IP and the choice of PC hardware comes in handy. With Dante switching samplerates is manual and with the Micromedia boards there is a limit at 24/96, but these inexpensive DIO boards blow the best USB converters I know out of the water, including the likes of Mutec and Singxer.

The Micromedia boards are certainly a good starting point, there is more advanced gear out there, e. g. from Lynx or Merging.

Therefore I think the best digital source for audiophiles at this point is a Mac (preference) or a PC with a quality LAN port running Dante Virtual Soundcard.

 

I have been using a Focusrite Rednet D16 followed by a Mutec 3+ USB, used for reclocking, for nearly two years. This is the best audio I have ever had. My DAC is a Schiit Audio Yggdrasil using AES cables between units. Previously I had a well tweaked USB chain. In my system AOIP far exceeds it in terms of a quiet background and natural non-fatiguing presentation. A few months ago I added a Mutec REF10 master clock. I think that audiophiles are missing out by dismissing Pro gear out of hand. I also feel that the Pro folks are missing out by no taking tricks from the Audiophile playbook. Why not take the best of both...

 

Granted I am limited to 24/192 but I had several Saber DACs that did DSD previously and now find that well done Redbook can easily be just as enjoyable and you have a gigantic pool of material to choose from.

[exdmd]

58 minutes ago, mourip said:

 

I have been using a Focusrite Rednet D16 followed by a Mutec 3+ USB, used for reclocking, for nearly two years. This is the best audio I have ever had. My DAC is a Schiit Audio Yggdrasil using AES cables between units. Previously I had a well tweaked USB chain. In my system AOIP far exceeds it in terms of a quiet background and natural non-fatiguing presentation. A few months ago I added a Mutec REF10 master clock. I think that audiophiles are missing out by dismissing Pro gear out of hand. I also feel that the Pro folks are missing out by no taking tricks from the Audiophile playbook. Why not take the best of both...

 

Granted I am limited to 24/192 but I had several Saber  DACs that did DSD previously and now find that well done Redbook can easily be just as enjoyable and you have a gigantic pool of material to choose from.

 

Are you updating your Yggy to A2? How do you feel about the comparison at S/PDIF Battle: Mutec, Singxer, Lynx, Rednet, Eitr, Et Al?

[mourip]

I put in my order for the Yggy analog boards upgrade on January 16th. I stated at 58 in the upgrade queue and now am at 14 where I have been stalled for 3 weeks. On another forum someone said that the boards are back ordered. The good news is that with the queue process I still have my Yggy to enjoy until my number comes up. It really is a great unit even in its original form. I am upgrading the Yggy in my speaker system. I have a second one in my headphone rig with the upgraded USB board. To my ears the new version 5 USB board does not sound as good as the Mutec +3 USB converter I am using as a reclocker with AES out.

 

When I get some time later today I will read that really in depth write-up and report back...

[*progear]

3 hours ago, One and a half said:

Point me in the direction of any pro gear (not Merging) that accepts DSD and there may be some interest. 

 

To my knowledge Merging is the only company that has implemented RAVENNA with DSD capability. 

 

2 hours ago, mourip said:

In my system AOIP far exceeds it in terms of a quiet background and natural non-fatiguing presentation.

 

I can clearly imagine that.

I just wonder how much damage is done to the signal by converting from AES3 to I2S. To my ears signal quality with AES67 is that good already that additional conversions may blur results. Thus I consider designs such as the HILO oder the Merging dacs the way to go.

I quickly tried a Digimedia DIO with AES cable into the HILO. The Mutec MC3+ USB as a reclocker in between worsened sound quality a little. We use Vovox & Apogee AES cable, btw.

Unfortunately I have not yet experienced the effects of the Mutec 10m on signal quality. 

 

just my 2 ct

[barrows]

Internally, every DAC converts AES to I2S.  But perhaps you are only referring to LVDS I2S transmission outside the DAC?  With LVDS (balanced signaling) the single ended I2S data stream must be made balanced by an LVDS chip, this adds some jitter, at both ends.

[*progear]

Native audio formats with dante boards are TDM and I2S. In two-channel mode the dante device speaks native I2S; if built into the dac or linked via slot card there will be no conversions whatsoever. The shorter the signal path for unbalanced I2S, the better the sound. My theory.

[mourip]

5 hours ago, exdmd said:

 

Are you updating your Yggy to A2? How do you feel about the comparison at S/PDIF Battle: Mutec, Singxer, Lynx, Rednet, Eitr, Et Al?

 

I read through the article. Color and cost aside I certainly agree with the description of the Rednet3 which is a less costly version of my D16. I put a second Intel PCIe ethernet card in my server and use that solely for the connection to the D16. I use my on-board NIC for LAN connection.

 

Here is a longish write-up I did comparing the different combinations and permutation with my D16, M3USB, and REF10.

I have since removed the SMPS power supplies in the M3USB and the D16 and replaced them with 3045 regulator boards located internally and fed from external LPS.

 

It seems so hard(impossible) to compare ones own system with someone else's in terms of outcome but my current combination has basically stopped my front end upgrade desires. Not cheap but remarkable to me.

 

In looking for my Mutec REF10 review post I noted that *progear was the one who got the Mutec ball rolling here. Thanks!

[asdf1000]

9 hours ago, *progear said:

Native audio formats with dante boards are TDM and I2S. In two-channel mode the dante device speaks native I2S; if built into the dac or linked via slot card there will be no conversions whatsoever. The shorter the signal path for unbalanced I2S, the better the sound. My theory.

 

Yep there's no such thing as a free lunch and adding more stuff in the chain may have pro's but also con's (trade-offs). The audible effects of any trade-offs will vary with every system of course.

 

So ethernet input DACs (including networked amps and networked active speakers) have great potential and there are nice ones already out there and it's safe to assume numbers will grow and over time USB will become a legacy input.

 

But it was discussed earlier in this thread that ethernet-to-I2S interfaces can be tricky to implement well inside a DAC (power supply noise isolation, phase noise/jitter, RF isolation) - especially with high sample rates like many around here use (DSD256 and DSD512). These Dante ethernet-to-I2S interfaces only have to deal with up to PCM96kHz I believe?

 

I was quite close to going the Dante route last year but held back after hearing about Merging's Zman board. Still waiting to hear if/how that develops.

 

I've heard great things about the Lynx Hilo as a Dante networked DAC.

[*progear]

17 hours ago, Em2016 said:

These Dante ethernet-to-I2S interfaces only have to deal with up to PCM96kHz I believe?

 

The Macromedia interfaces are PCM96kHz max, two channels only. There are several varieties, DAC, IO AES3, IO SPDIF and a few more. Most of these have I2S pins available, one could feed a dac from there. I cannot report any noise issues with these boards whatsoever. I think these boards are ideal for tweaking and diy.

 

17 hours ago, Em2016 said:

I've heard great things about the Lynx Hilo as a Dante networked DAC.

 

It is indeed a gem. I had experienced the sonic qualities of Dante earlier, but the Hilo showed me how much of a difference Dante can make.

[rafa]

On 4/7/2018 at 9:54 PM, *progear said:

Most of these have I2S pins available

What micromedia card you talking about exactly?

[barrows]

Max 24/96 is going to be a no go for a lot of Audiophiles.  Sonore Ethernet interfaces already handle at least up to 768 PCM and DSD 512, I see no reason why one would be satisfied with such low sample rates, especially with the options for computer based oversampling increasing and improving every day.

Right now I oversample everything to DSD 256 for best performance with my DAC, a computer in my work room handles the oversampling and then the data travels via Ethernet to my Renderer/DAC.

By the way the Ethernet board available from Engineered.ch (Swiss) can handle up to PCM 384 and ay least DSD 256 (native) and has I2S output and the ability to be slaved to an external clock source: this is a great option as the clock(s) can be located right at the converter (with flip flop re-clocking) and then be sent back (through isolation preferably) to the interface.

 

Anyone running an Ethernet interface inside a DAC should very carefully consider both shielding and power supply.  I have tried this a few times in DIY DACs, and so far a good (isolated and re-clocked) USB interface has out performed the Ethernet (apparently because of noise problems from the interface).  A processor capable of handling Ethernet is quite a bit more powerful than an XMOS USB receiver, and hence makes a lot more noise.  On some commercial DACs i have heard the Ethernet input is not the best (but the Linn Klimax DS sounds fantastic, guess what, Linn has been at this a long time and separately shields the interface in a sub enclosure inside the DAC).  

For an Ethernet interface inside a DAC and best sonic performance I would:  1. Power the interface from a completely separate supply (own transformer) 2.  Shield the Ethernet interface.  3.  Re-clock the data stream via the (local) masterclock and a Flip Flop directly before the conversion stage.  This approach, if implemented properly, should result in best possible data stream for the DAC and and the best possible sound quality.  

 

[Ralf11]

Max 24/96 is what a lot of source material is available in... or even lower.

 

- or are you talking about up & over sampling of the lower material?

[barrows]

10 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Max 24/96 is what a lot of source material is available in... or even lower.

 

- or are you talking about up & over sampling of the lower material?

There is lots of higher rate material available and DSD as well.

But, yes, I was more referring to the superior sound quality possible when one oversamples in a computer (instead of, or in addition to in the DAC).  My experience, and that of many others, suggests that computer based oversampling allows for better sound quality, and reduces processing in the DAC, also allowing for better sound quality there.

[Ralf11]

Thanks - that is on my list...

[rafa]

I am testing Micromedia Digimedia DIO XLR  with Dante protocol since yesterday and first impression is - that never heard so smooth and analog sounding, digital music.

 

Yes, limitation to 96kHz is annoying. Also as necessity of switching sampling rate in dante controller for the file/album we want listen.

I will try resampling to keep one sample rate for everything and will see if wont loose some SQ during process.

I tried upsampling to DSD before and wasn't happy with result. At the begin I was impressed. But after a while I found lost of micro details.

Maybe resampling to 96PCM wont be bad solution. But first listening impression with simple 44kHz is very promising.

 

And at the end of the day quality of the records matter, more then file sample rate.

[barrows]

deleted, as irrelevant