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FORGETTING the Digital to Analog conversion part, what is BEST Digital source?


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42 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I want better optical than TOSlink

 

You can have that right now.

 

Buy a USD6500 Playback Designs Merlot DAC and their USD2500 USB-XIII Audio Interface. The USB-XIII supports DSD256 over the network.

 

Or their USD6500 Sonoma Syrah music server if you want to skip USB and just have server fiber output -> DAC's fiber input

 

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22 minutes ago, barrows said:

Yes, optical interfaces add jitter.  Anytime one goes from an electrical format and then a device changes that to optical jitter is created.  This does not need to be a problem though, with proper implementation and re-clocking the jitter can be fairly easily eliminated.  What matters is the jitter at the conversion to analog stage.

For example, Ayre uses optocouplers for isolation in its DACs, they put the masterclock(s) at the DAC chip and re-clock just before conversion.  Although the optocouplers increase jitter in the data stream, it is eliminated right at the re-clock stage.

After years of fooling around with Corning Cables, FMCs and the Adnaco USB fiber solutions, I've gone all copper now.  In the end,  sound quality is best once the fiber was eliminated.  Based on your response, I guess that these are all sub-optimal implementations of opto-electric interfaces.

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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On 1/8/2018 at 6:09 PM, barrows said:

.  While I agree that good DACs with Ethernet inout are what we will see, I just do not see it being possible at beer's price point, due to the integration requirements and engineering time needed.

 

Going to repeat my question to you...

 

If the new holo spring can sell their new holo dsd for $1k and you sell your ultra rendu for $900, then why couldn't a similar dac with your enet port be made for under $2K?

 

I think it's just that dac engineers make dacs, and enet engineers make enet....but once they get together, they can make a quality dac with enet port for under $2k?  Or you don't think the new holo dsd will be "good" ?

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On 1/8/2018 at 6:09 PM, barrows said:

  While I agree that good DACs with Ethernet inout are what we will see, I just do not see it being possible at beer's price point, due to the integration requirements and engineering time needed.

 

Just found this....this is coming dangerously close to what i am looking for.  Only supports dsd128 though...my checklist wants dsd256, and $1k over my desired price poing of $2k....but we are almost there with this....

 

https://wyred4sound.com/products/music-servers/ms

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1 hour ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Just found this....this is coming dangerously close to what i am looking for.  Only supports dsd128 though...my checklist wants dsd256, and $1k over my desired price poing of $2k....but we are almost there with this....

 

https://wyred4sound.com/products/music-servers/ms

nvm...i misread it....i thought it said it included a dac...

this has ssd storage capability that i don't desire, but it doesn't have dac....back to the drawing board.

 

Holo spring dsd with internal rendu ultra would still work (wink)....someone will get it right within a year or two i am sure...

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5 minutes ago, barrows said:

You need to add another $1K for a power supply for your ultraRendu calc, plus, the ultra Rendu is USB out only, to add it to a DAC you need I2S, to do that well adds more money, although for DSD only just one really good clock would be needed (2 are needed for PCM).

While I am OK with a DSD only DAC (like you), not many audiophiles will be willing to buy that, so not many manufacturers are going to be willing to make one.  So add in PCM as well for another $1K at least, hey guess what, we are up around $5K now, and this is a DAC made in China we are basing this on (Holo) so add another 50% at least for made in USA, now we are at around $7500.00, what do you know, not as affordable as you first thought...

 

Take the cost of the HOLO PS and RENDU ULTRA PS together and get just one...it can be external and upgrade it later.

 

why would you need i2s or any interface if the circuitry is on the same pcb?

 

I don't need or want PCM....that is the idea behind the new HOLO Spring DSD (pcm only at cost savings)...if someone wants pcm they can buy the pcm flavor.

 

Someone will make a good quality network dac at a competitive price sometime, regardless of what you think....again maybe not the "marketing hype subjectively best", but very good....good enough for consumers that aren't willing to spend over $3K for a source....which is the biggest chunk of the market....someone will get smart someday...and i don't suspect it will be too far in the distant future.

 

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4 hours ago, barrows said:

1.  Good Ethernet implementation requires a dedicated supply including a dedicated transformer, otherwise the processor noise will affect the DAC and analog circuitry.  Remember, and Ethernet interface is a small computer.

 

2. The DAC input is I2S in ANY DAC.  So your Ethernet interface needs to generate I2S to go to the DAC

 

3. Yes, but Most manufacturers are not going to be willing to produce a DSD only DAC because of the limited market, even though YOU might be fine with it.

 

4. Of course this will be made, for those who do not desire really great sound quality...

 

Assuming I would be content with a product such as a LUMIN D1 or a PS Audio DSJR or a AUrender Altair, or a dozen other products that are already currently available for under $2K, that I am sure I could live with.

 

Do those 3 devices all have:

1. Dedicated supply including dedicated transformer?

2. Internal I2s

3. DSD & PCM

 

If all 3 music servers I mentioned have everything you say is "needed" to be "great", then that is proof in the pudding that "great" can be had for under $2K. 

 

If you suggest none of the solutions i mention are "great" perhaps i should just get a used iphone so i can beat a rendu, and put my money in a Holo Spring DSD dac.....You state above that "YOU" too only need DSD...so at least we share that same opinion...

 

again, your "Great" is subjective  It is being stated in another thread here that a cheap used iphone can beat the rendu and even possibly the ultra rendu as a roon endpoint....

 

"great" is subjective.

 

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7 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

1. Dedicated supply including dedicated transformer?

2. Internal I2s

3. DSD & PCM

This is an absurd question.  One needs a lot more than these three things to make a great DAC!

 

I know the DSJ does not have 1.  All DACs have 2, I2S is essentially the native format at which DAC chips accept digital signals.  For DSD it is DSDR, DSDL, and bit clock: for simplicity I am lumping the DSD signals in with I2S.

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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1 hour ago, barrows said:

This is an absurd question.  One needs a lot more than these three things to make a great DAC!

 

I know the DSJ does not have 1.  All DACs have 2, I2S is essentially the native format at which DAC chips accept digital signals.  For DSD it is DSDR, DSDL, and bit clock: for simplicity I am lumping the DSD signals in with I2S.

 

I only used the word "great" because that was your subjective term.  Personally, For me, no dac or source I would attribue the word "Great" too.  I would attribute the word "great" to speakers such as Focals or ATC.  There just hasn't been any source or dac that profoundly blows away any "cheap" optical solution or any "cheap" native dsd via DLNA that I have already tried and been content with.  I would only say possibly "subjectively" better, not "great". (that is your term).

 

So if you say the DSJR does not have 1, then I would suggest that some streamer/dac "CAN" be designed "well enough" under $2K.  In all likelihood, I would be happy with SQ of a cheap used iphone to a Holo Spring DSD...I am just looking for a streamer/dac for under $2K with modern knowledge, and you can't convince me that it can't be done, because it already has been done...i am just waiting for the "next right" solution...and it won't include a daisy chain of usb toys requiring a reclocker with an lps and an expensive cable.

 

I may try a rendu or sotm some day, to compare to "whatever" streamer/dac i eventually buy and see if it is "great" in comparison....and if it is, I will buy one....i just don't believe it will be "great"...but I promise i will give it a try before i call it a day..or maybe you are suggesting the ultra rendu should only be used with "great" dacs that cost over $2k and it can be improved upon with the addition of a reclocker w/lps and an expensive cable?  If that is the case, then i will not even bother trying....I am not going to spend your suggested 7.5K that is required to achieve "greatness" for a source.

 

 

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1 hour ago, barrows said:

 

Furthermore, it also appears that you have no sound quality reference for a really great DAC, as you keep mentioning $2K-$1K DACs.  Even if you are only prepared to purchase DACs <$2K, I would suggest that you listen to some of the better more expensive DACs on the market to have an understanding of what is actually possible, this kind of perspective will treat you well in choosing the best lower priced DAC for yourself.  I am not surprised that you do not hear big differences between DACs around $1K to $2K, I do not either, the big differences appear when you get into the $5K and up level.

 

I will read and respond to other parts of your post later, but want to respond to this first.

I have read by MANY that the YGGI is as "good as it gets", and to which many people reference to, so I am convinced that it is accepted by the community as at least "good enough".  GMGraves (whom i trust and respect, as just one example) LOVES his yggi and will talk up a storm about it's greatness.  He also stated that the gungnir mulitibit is so close that you would have to listen "really hard" to hear any difference.  He even stated that if he got the gungnir first that he would be more than content.  So I gave the gungnir a shot...guess what.  No hoopla for me.  Sure it sounded good, but nothing that was like "OH WOW" what an improvement, and in fact native dsd over dlna via a cheap sony bluray sounds just as good, if not better.  George even said that an SACD using it's internal dac sounds best over even his YGGI.  Guess what, I agree...and I am not the only one.  I have stated many times that i have heard the likes of many 300K+ systems and the speakers may blow me away, regardless of what source they use.  I personally have tried literally dozens of dacs.

 

If you suggest the YGGI is not good enough, and that there are dacs that "blow away" the YGGI like night and day difference, I just don't buy it anymore.  The only DAC that I have heard about with any universal community opinion to possibly fit that bill is the the Chord DAVE, to which i have also had a listen too.  (granted not in my environment with my music), but there was nothing that just knocked my socks off....some say the $2K LKS dac compares very close to the Dave and bests the YGGI. (I know it is chinese, and I won't buy one...just saying)...

 

I still say that the amp and speakers make the biggest difference, and that I am not convinced that any source can be that much better....e.g. I would rather have a pair of focal speakers with a $1K holo spring dsd dac than a $10K dac and pair of polks. 

 

Just out of curiosity, what is your $5K reference dac you speak of?

 

PS- I have heard a PS AUdio direct stream setup at a recent audio club meetup.
he even ran fiber to it, and had weights on things to prevent vibration and had cable lifts for his one inch cables.  It didn't blow me away.  I have already heard many 300K systems that sounded much better...and usually it is the speakers that make the difference to me. 

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1 hour ago, barrows said:

What I am suggesting is that you appear to be making the mistake of oversimplifying things.  I have given you tons of technical information, over the course of many threads here, which show that it is not so easy as you think to design, and build, a really good DAC, but you seem to ignore the information in favor of your belief system, which appears to be based only on faith and not on any level of technical understanding of the difficulties involved.

 

I am not saying it is simple, but with time, technology does improve.  With time, prices come down.  I already believe there are many products i could be content with under $2k.  I just know better will come...i am not over-simplifying anything in my opinion.  It is just the natural progression of technology and marketing.  I remember buying blank cd's for $40 a pop to go along with my cd recorder at a cost of $2000.  I have lived my entire life in the technical environment, so I know how things progress...albeit the audio industry is very slow comparatively speaking...but i do see a lot of recent advancements, that have me excited, and i know from experience that right now, it is the wait game...I am content with my NT503 for now.  If someone has really deep pockets and willing to spend $10K for a 20% boost in their dac performance (which may equate to a 2-3% overall system performance), i am very happy for them, and I don't mean to take anything away from them in their choices, but that is a very small market.  I am just waiting for something to come along for the broader market.  By your continual insistence that I can't find anything I can be happy with without spending enormous amount of money, is what you perceive as my over-simplification....which imho is not over simplifying anything.  I think i have a very good grasp of what is out there, and what is possible, and i appreciate what the engineers do to move us in that direction.

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23 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

I am not saying it is simple, but with time, technology does improve.  With time, prices come down.  I already believe there are many products i could be content with under $2k.  I just know better will come...i am not over-simplifying anything in my opinion.  It is just the natural progression of technology and marketing.  I remember buying blank cd's for $40 a pop to go along with my cd recorder at a cost of $2000.  I have lived my entire life in the technical environment, so I know how things progress...albeit the audio industry is very slow comparatively speaking...but i do see a lot of recent advancements, that have me excited, and i know from experience that right now, it is the wait game...I am content with my NT503 for now.  If someone has really deep pockets and willing to spend $10K for a 20% boost in their dac performance (which may equate to a 2-3% overall system performance), i am very happy for them, and I don't mean to take anything away from them in their choices, but that is a very small market.  I am just waiting for something to come along for the broader market.  By your continual insistence that I can't find anything I can be happy with without spending enormous amount of money, is what you perceive as my over-simplification....which imho is not over simplifying anything.  I think i have a very good grasp of what is out there, and what is possible, and i appreciate what the engineers do to move us in that direction.

Hi,

Can you name 1 instance (with high performance audio) were technical advancements have brought the prices down?

This doesn't happen. I have been playing uncompressed digital files from a NAS drive since 2003: and although I've seen what can only be called dramatic tech advances, - NONE have resulted in lower prices. That (might) happen in the consumer sphere, but not in high performance audio. If you're happy with lower performance consumer audio, - that's fine. In high performance audio, - designers are NOT interested in advancing technology for cheaper prices, - but to advance tech for better sound. If you take a look at the small Dragonfly DAC, - that's an advancement in tech that yields a cheaper price, - but doesn't sound nearly as good as full sized, high performance DAC.

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On 1/10/2018 at 11:09 PM, marce said:

Galvanic isolation is to stop a direct current path between equipment, it is not designed to stop noise (though it can breaks ground loops ) it is for protection...

EMC or noise requires more thought and a full understanding of coupling mechanisms and ensuring there are no coupling mechanisms in the gear you are designing... 

 

ok, if there is no electrical connection (galv. isolation is used, such as opto-isolators) then what "coupling mechanisms" could exist, barring EMR ??

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On ‎11‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 4:18 PM, beerandmusic said:

 

I don't need or want PCM....that is the idea behind the new HOLO Spring DSD (pcm only at cost savings)...if someone wants pcm they can buy the pcm flavor.

 

  You are an obvious exception, as the vast majority of people also want access to high resolution formats as sold by HDTracks etc. ( they also have some DSD offerings now too) there is likely to be very little market demand for what you are asking for, and if it was made available it would be likely to be relatively expensive due to lack of economy of scale.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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