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FORGETTING the Digital to Analog conversion part, what is BEST Digital source?


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I don't want to debate dacs, the conversion, or the analog out...I want to discuss the digital source input only.

 

What is the best digital source.  Are any perfect?  Can it be measured to verify so it is not debatable?  I mean we are talking ones and zeroes only, i would "think" by this day and age, that we can perfect the transmission of the 1s and 0s accurately?

 

If a song is 10101010 is there a method or device that can transmit that 100% accurately up to the d to a converter?

 

I already heard that the usb bus from a pc has noise on it and so that noise HAS to be isolated from the 10101010 file.

So assuming that is done via a Schiit EITR or by using s/pdif  or a non-noisy usb (maybe a flash, ssd, or sdcard plugged into a dac?), can we say with absolution that the digital part is 100% accurate up to the DAC? and will any of the 4 above be perfect and can be measured?

 

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Speaking as a non-expert, I may be way off beam, but aren't the 1's & 0's themselves always intact during transmission ? ... it's noise from power, cables etc and other artefacts that screw things up.

Main System: NAS or QOBUZ > BlueSound Node 2i > Schiit Gungnir MultiBit > PYST XLR > Schiit Mjolnir 2 or Gilmore Lite MK2

 

Office System: iMac > Audirvana > Schiit EITR + Audiophonics LPS25 > Metrum FLINT NOS DAC (DAC TWO chips) > Schiit Magni 3+ > Aeon Flow Open

 

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17 minutes ago, Charente said:

Speaking as a non-expert, I may be way off beam, but aren't the 1's & 0's themselves always intact during transmission ? ... it's noise from power, cables etc and other artefacts that screw things up.

 

If both the noise and the 1's & 0's are just voltage ranges, then no, the 1s& 0s are not always intact.

mQa is dead!

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10 minutes ago, Charente said:

Speaking as a non-expert, I may be way off beam, but aren't the 1's & 0's themselves always intact during transmission ? ... it's noise from power, cables etc and other artefacts that screw things up.

 

waiting to hear from experts, but i think there are issues with transmission due to clocking, but error correction plays a role in correcting?  since it is a "stream" timing and receiving is important.....ready to hear and learn more....

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Yes, I can see that ... I was trying to restrict my thinking simply to the 'transmission' part of your question. But @lucretius has a point.

Main System: NAS or QOBUZ > BlueSound Node 2i > Schiit Gungnir MultiBit > PYST XLR > Schiit Mjolnir 2 or Gilmore Lite MK2

 

Office System: iMac > Audirvana > Schiit EITR + Audiophonics LPS25 > Metrum FLINT NOS DAC (DAC TWO chips) > Schiit Magni 3+ > Aeon Flow Open

 

Loudspeaker System: NAIM Muso Gen 2

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54 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

If a song is 10101010 is there a method or device that can transmit that 100% accurately up to the d to a converter?

All devices in common use by audiophiles actually do transmit the digital data accurately.  The only thing left to effect sound quality is the electrical noise which comes over the interface with the data.  In the case of USB audio, the noise appears to contribute to sonic problems, most likely by corrupting the internal DAC clock power supply (creating jitter) and perhaps even by the electrical noise mixing with analog signals creating intermodulation distortion.

In the very early days of USB audio there were actual data transmission problems, but these result in very audible tics, clicks, or even short dropouts of sound, thankfully these issues were solved long ago. 

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

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37 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

waiting to hear from experts, but i think there are issues with transmission due to clocking, but error correction plays a role in correcting?  since it is a "stream" timing and receiving is important.....ready to hear and learn more....

 

What error correction? I didn't think USB audio involved such and, of course, S/PDIF has no error correction.

mQa is dead!

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17 minutes ago, barrows said:

All devices in common use by audiophiles actually do transmit the digital data accurately.  The only thing left to effect sound quality is the electrical noise which comes over the interface with the data.  In the case of USB audio, the noise appears to contribute to sonic problems, most likely by corrupting the internal DAC clock power supply (creating jitter) and perhaps even by the electrical noise mixing with analog signals creating intermodulation distortion.

In the very early days of USB audio there were actual data transmission problems, but these result in very audible tics, clicks, or even short dropouts of sound, thankfully these issues were solved long ago. 

 

^^^^ I don't know what "all devices in common use by audiophiles" means...

 

I had someone tell me that they thought the s/pdif out of my pc (asus vm60) "colors" the accuracy with jitter. 

 

And if they all transmit accurately, then there is no reason to buy an expensive  cable?  Or do we need to debate s/pdif cables just like need to debate usb cables?

 

 

 

 

 

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@beerandmusic

 

I was referring to USB audio, which technically is superior to SPDIF.  I saw in another thread that you are not considering USB, I consider this a mistake and it may be that you just need a better USB source than a commercial computer.  Commercial computer products are not built to high standards for noise and audio, so they produce a lot of noise which can result in sound degradation (but this degradation is not due to data loss).

Additionally:  SPDIF is subject to jitter (not really data loss), that is why it has problems (jitter is timing error and not data loss), the SPDIF cable is important to reduce jitter, but using a commercial computer as an SPDIF source is not going to be ideal, just as it is not for USB.

This is why high quality audiophile digital sources exist: servers, and Ethernet renderers, to provide a much better source than any computer.

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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25 minutes ago, barrows said:

@beerandmusic

 

I was referring to USB audio, which technically is superior to SPDIF.  I saw in another thread that you are not considering USB, I consider this a mistake and it may be that you just need a better USB source than a commercial computer.  Commercial computer products are not built to high standards for noise and audio, so they produce a lot of noise which can result in sound degradation (but this degradation is not due to data loss).

Additionally:  SPDIF is subject to jitter (not really data loss), that is why it has problems (jitter is timing error and not data loss), the SPDIF cable is important to reduce jitter, but using a commercial computer as an SPDIF source is not going to be ideal, just as it is not for USB.

This is why high quality audiophile digital sources exist: servers, and Ethernet renderers, to provide a much better source than any computer.

 

Ok, i am not wanting to limit this topic to USB only.  I want to know if there is any method to deliver the digital data accurately and if it can be measured such that it is not debatable?  So PC's are out in your opinion to accurately deliver the 1s and 0s...what is your suggestion for perfect digital transmission?

 

I know i can copy a digital file from one computer to another computer and do an md5 on it to verify that the digital contents are 100% accurate.  The fact that you can copy a digital file to a usb drive with 100% accuracy using ANY cable, I don't understand why a digital file cannot be copied to a dac with 100% accuracy?  Maybe Dacs should be built with an internal HD where the source file can be compared to the destination file within the dac and verify that it is working with a 100% accurate file before the conversion?

 

 

 

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Most digital interfaces will do bit perfect these days...

 

Noise is not such an issue with digital, the signal will get through. Noise on systems in general, you need measurements and investigation to see if its a problem.

Jitter is only a problem at the point of conversion, so re-clocking clears that up.

Me I have a NAS that anyone can use to access the music library on their phones, laptops or whatever and a stand alone PC that just runs my squeezebox server, shoved away in a corner somewhere.

From what I have seen of audiophile servers etc. just the same as a PC with fancy clothes, not seen anything exciting or spectacular. I know some will squalk, but I do low noise instrumentation layout, mil, aerospace and medical so I know what it takes to get a really low noise system, whether that level is needed for audio I wonder, look at the figures you can get out of on board sound cards connected directly to a PC motherboard

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4 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Ok, i am not wanting to limit this topic to USB only.  I want to know if there is any method to deliver the digital data accurately and if it can be measured such that it is not debatable?  So PC's are out in your opinion to accurately deliver the 1s and 0s...what is your suggestion for perfect digital transmission?

 

I know i can copy a digital file from one computer to another computer and do an md5 on it to verify that the digital contents are 100% accurate.  The fact that you can copy a digital file to a usb drive with 100% accuracy using ANY cable, I don't understand why a digital file cannot be copied to a dac with 100% accuracy?  Maybe Dacs should be built with an internal HD where the source file can be compared to the destination file within the dac and verify that it is working with a 100% accurate file before the conversion?

 

 

 

PC's do perfect bit transmission, no problem what so ever.

Eye diagrams, network analysers, you can even simulate it all beforehand if you want... bit perfect data transmission these days is easy. Its all around you.

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5 minutes ago, marce said:

Jitter is only a problem at the point of conversion, so re-clocking clears that up.

 

So are you suggesting that even using my asus vm60 s/pdif connector, if this digital music file is sent to a w4s dac which has a femto clock upgrade, that the digital data will be 100% accurate regardless of what cable i use?

 

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5 minutes ago, marce said:

PC's do perfect bit transmission.

Thanks, that's what i believe based on my pc background.  I find it very difficult to believe that a digital file cannot be copied to an external device via usb or s/pdif without 100% accuracy regardless of the cable.  And if there was issues, then the dac has some real issues with buffering that need to be addressed....

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11 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

So are you suggesting that even using my asus vm60 s/pdif connector, if this digital music file is sent to a w4s dac which has a femto clock upgrade, that the digital data will be 100% accurate regardless of what cable i use?

 

If the cable is within the SPDIF spec then YES.

 

Timing at the point of data conversion is critical, if you buffer and re-clock your data then yes there is no problem. Getting the data their is usually not an issue, just timing when it is converted.

Femto clocks in audio... always gives me a giggle, especially when they are on a separate board with a piece of wire to the main board (all clock mods that involve external wires are not going to do much, I could go on about signal integrity but...)

:D

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2 minutes ago, marce said:

If the cable is within the SPDIF spec then YES.

 

Timing at the point of data conversion is critical, if you buffer and re-clock your data then yes there is no problem. Getting the data their is usually not an issue, just timing when it is converted.

Femto clocks in audio... always gives me a giggle, especially when they are on a separate board with a piece of wire to the main board (all clock mods that involve external wires are not going to do much, I could go on about signal integrity but...)

:D

I really don't know anything about femto clocks...never researched it, but w4s marketing suggests it's a good thing. 

 

Is this "buffering and re-clocking" required for both usb and s/pdif?  And do all dacs do that, even the cheap dragonflies?  Again, I do not want to get into the d-a conversion in this thread and why a dac is better than others...i want to keep to Digital accuracy ONLY.

 

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47 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

So PC's are out in your opinion to accurately deliver the 1s and 0s...what is your suggestion for perfect digital transmission?

No, they will deliver bit perfect audio almost always, unless something is wrong with your settings.  The problem is they will also deliver a lot of noise which can make for problems in the DAC and sound degradation at the output.  As i mentioned before, this why there are audio source solutions like servers and Ethernet renderers with low noise.  I prefer using a very low noise Ethernet renderer with USB output.

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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28 minutes ago, barrows said:

 The problem is they will also deliver a lot of noise which can make for problems in the DAC and sound degradation at the output. 

 

Keeping with topic, i am talking about digital only.  OP states the digital 1s and 0s are delivered with 100% accuracy.  Also states s/pdif jitter (if that is what you are referring to as noise), is a non-issue if the digital 1's and 0's are buffered and re-clocked.  DO all dacs do that?  Do all DACS (prior to analog conversion circuitry), buffer and re-clock such that they can present the 1''s and 0's accurately (prior to analog conversion)?  Again, my desire is to determine if most any dac can accurately present the 1's and 0's to the other circuitry, or only expensive dacs are capable of doing that?

 

Again, if i can very cheaply transfer a digital file from one computer to another with any cable, then imho, ANY dac should be able to recieve the binary bits with 100% accuracy.

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29 minutes ago, barrows said:

 I prefer using a very low noise Ethernet renderer with USB output.

Isn't the usb output on the ethernet renderer also prone to noise issues?

I "think" your product does provide usb output, but wouldn't it be "better" for a dac (e.g. network music server), to have the ethernet input direct without having to go out to usb?

 

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46 minutes ago, barrows said:

No, they will deliver bit perfect audio almost always, unless something is wrong with your settings.  The problem is they will also deliver a lot of noise which can make for problems in the DAC and sound degradation at the output.  As i mentioned before, this why there are audio source solutions like servers and Ethernet renderers with low noise.  I prefer using a very low noise Ethernet renderer with USB output.

 

Do you mean analog noise like hum?

mQa is dead!

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Just now, beerandmusic said:

Isn't the usb output on the ethernet renderer also prone to noise issues?

Yes, but the point is that good Ethernet renderers are produced by companies with audiophile values, and address the noise issues specifically.  For example, a printer is not going to care about noise coming over on the USB cable, it is going to make sure the data is perfect, and then print the document, regardless of any noise.  Computer companies are building their products to the lowest possible price which will still work, not in order to produce audiophile quality sound from a connected DAC.

Audiophile companies (hopefully at least) are paying much more attention to small details which matter for audio, specifically making sure they have the best USB signal integrity possible with the lowest possible noise, this is why quality built digital source components are going to provide better sound quality (and why they cost more) than a consumer computer product. 

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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Just now, lucretius said:

Do you mean analog noise like hum?

No.  Although ground loop hum could be possibly caused by a poorly implemented USB interface.  I mean noise coming over USB and wreaking havoc in the DAC, all of the following are possible reasons:  noise on the ground plane of the USB interface, getting to the oscillators and causing additional jitter (short term clock error).  Noise coupling into analog circuitry and causing intermodulation distortion of analog signals.  Noise coupling into the DAC chip from the ground plane and disrupting internal operations (remember DAC chips are half analog components).

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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1 minute ago, barrows said:

Yes, but the point is that good Ethernet renderers are produced by companies with audiophile values, and address the noise issues specifically.  For example, a printer is not going to care about noise coming over on the USB cable, it is going to make sure the data is perfect, and then print the document, regardless of any noise.  Computer companies are building their products to the lowest possible price which will still work, not in order to produce audiophile quality sound from a connected DAC.

Audiophile companies (hopefully at least) are paying much more attention to small details which matter for audio, specifically making sure they have the best USB signal integrity possible with the lowest possible noise, this is why quality built digital source components are going to provide better sound quality (and why they cost more) than a consumer computer product. 

 

but still, wouldn't it be better to go from ethernet in directly into the d->a circuitry without having to go out usb? 

 

Kind of going off topic, but that is the direction that I believe I will ultimately go, once such a product exists which meets my checklists.

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18 minutes ago, barrows said:

No.  Although ground loop hum could be possibly caused by a poorly implemented USB interface.  I mean noise coming over USB and wreaking havoc in the DAC, all of the following are possible reasons:  noise on the ground plane of the USB interface, getting to the oscillators and causing additional jitter (short term clock error).  Noise coupling into analog circuitry and causing intermodulation distortion of analog signals.  Noise coupling into the DAC chip from the ground plane and disrupting internal operations (remember DAC chips are half analog components).

 

Does this noise manifest itself in the form of current spikes?

mQa is dead!

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1 hour ago, marce said:

If the cable is within the SPDIF spec then YES.

 

Timing at the point of data conversion is critical, if you buffer and re-clock your data then yes there is no problem. Getting the data their is usually not an issue, just timing when it is converted.

 

 

This also brings up another interesting concept...When I first got into digital audio, probably 5 years ago now, I asked about HDMI and it seemed everyone unanymously agreed that HDMI has too much jitter.

If the 1's and 0's can be accurately transferred, and jitter can be handled by buffering and reclocking, can't this be true for HDMI as well?  if the 1's and 0's are not affected by jitter, but it's necessary to remove the jitter prior to d-a conversion, but the 1's and 0's are still presented accurately to the d-a circuitry, and the jitter is removed, is HDMI "REALLY" a bad source since it can handle DSD?

 

One other question, when people refer to inherent problems of usb noise on the 5v bus, is that the same as jitter, or are those 2 different issues?

 

E.g.

1. Usb has 5v bus noise issues but no jitter issues, or does USB have both noise AND jitter issues, it's just the jitter for usb isn't as bad as HDMI & S/PDIF?

2. HDMI & S/pdif have jitter issues but no 5v bus noise?

3. 1s and 0s are 100% accurate in either case?

 

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