New speakers

[johniboy]

i am not the only one asking for an active room node correction using a subwoofer kind of device. see:

 

http://stereophile.com/reference/108tech/index1.html

 

why does smth like not exist yet??

 

[earflappin]

Nice post johniboy. Just to recap, as Nyal stated, if you are going to use full range mains and want to use multiple subs to get smooth in room LF performance you really need to use a high pass filter before the mains.

 

My experience is that high/low pass filters in most subs are not great and sonically degrade the signal. Further, as was mentioned, I would think going through a A-D-A stage in an active crossover device would also degrade the signal.

 

When I got my Rythmik sub, Brian (the owner), loaned me an RC network device which basically plugged into the amplfiier input - the cables from the DAC/Pre plugged into it. The RC network is a simple high pass filter which rolls off the LF to the mains. I used it when I was integrated multiple subs with my Dynaudio Temptations. Worked great and I didn't notice any sonic degradation. Depending on the capacitor and resistor selected you can control the corner frequency for the roll off. It's cheap and easy to try this.

 

Now then, on to the subs. Remember that the reason for using multiple subs in an asymmetric placement is to smooth room nodes, that otherwise cause an uneven LF in the room which causes large dips and peaks in output. If this is done properly, you don't need room correction. The problem with room correcction is that it typically only gets flat LF in the listener position. As soon as you move around the room you're back to large peaks and valleys in output. However, room correction technology is getting better and I know many audiophiles who do use it. But remember that room correction is different from phase/crossover/output adjustments on a sub. Room correction is usually done with a PEQ (parametric equation) circuit which subs increasingly include. If you don't want to daisy chain multiple line level cables to the subs another approach is to get an active crossover like a Behringer 2496 - yes you have to do A-D-A, but at the LF I'm not sure you'd notice whatever coloration that might cause.

 

Another approach altogether which I think is gaining momentum is get a combined DAC/Pre/DSP like the Metric Halo ULN-8 or others. This would allow everything to be done in the digital domain. You could do the main speaker high pass filter and manage multiple subs and do room correction all in one box. I may try this approach myself. This would also allow you to implement an active crossover for your main speakers.

 

A variation on this theme is to use the computer music server to as a DSP upstream of the DAC. I believe this is what Emerald Physics is doing with their Spatial computer server.

 

 

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

@earflappin: I believe that Vandersteen also leverages an inline filter that sits between the pre and the amp to introduce "early roll-off" for the mains to facilitate integration with their integrated and external subs. I think the only caveat is that this isn't a one-size-fits-all, the correct values will vary by the input impedance on the amp. I think Vandersteen sells a "generic" with many settings possible, but I don't have one, never seen one, and have no idea if this is usable outside of Vandersteen gear.

 

The Velodyne sub does include the typical phase, crossover, and volume controls. It further allows you to change output by frequency, which isn't just room-EQ, but does allow you to tailor the integration with the mains, obviously. Lastly, they also include the ability to change the amount of servo boost, which will tighten or loosen the bass as dictated, a setting which can be set globally or by freq, I think. Comprehensive, but I think this is all standard (all but the Q) on most subs. I think what's different (but not necessarily interesting) is that the Velodyne (and JL and a few others) will do this automagically for you if you don't feel like fiddling.

 

I think room correction is fine. I'm just not a fan, at least for my 2-channel rig, but I reserve the right to change my mind. LOL. I think you can do most of what room correction software is trying to do by simply treating your room. Phase, as a problem, can be eliminated simply -- either move the sub inline with the mains, or fiddle with the phase control. What moving the sub around the room will not do is deal with timing issues. If your sub is in phase with the mains, great, but if it's set 5 feet back from them, that info isn't reaching your ears at anywhere near the same time.

 

To quote 10audio: "Let’s talk about phase. In many installations, the subwoofer is sitting behind the main speakers. The distance between the front of the sub and the front of the main speakers is often in the range of 1 to 5 feet. The sound of the sub is about 1 to 5 milliseconds behind the sound from the main speakers. To match the phase of the main speakers, the sub’s output would have to be advanced 1 to 5 milliseconds, or .36 to 1.8 degrees. Phase controls cannot predict what will be coming into the sub’s input 5 ms in the future. They can only delay the sub’s output, which is just the opposite of what we need."

 

Some will say that directionality in the 20Hz region is impossible to discern. I wouldn't dispute that -- but subs can and regularly do go as high as 80Hz, and I'm not sure that the same applies.

 

Anyway, I have no idea what the ideal solution is or should be. I simply run my subs in line and in phase with the mains and treat the room around it. What I need is better hand-off between the mains and the subs. Attenuation by a filtering device is probably the answer -- and the the Vandersteen plugs might be just the ticket. Anyone know if this would work or if there are other acoustically transparent devices that would do the same trick?

 

[barrows]

never recommend putting an additional crossover (high pass filter) in front of the main speakers unless it was designed specifically by the speaker designer for that purpose (a la Vandersteen). A well designed high end speaker has a highly optomized crossover design, and one would be making a big compromise in the performance of the main speakers by placing additional crossover components in series with the crossover in the speaker. In a pro audio, or most home theatre set ups, things are not nearly as refined as in an audiofile speaker like an Avalon, Focus Audio, or Wilson product.

To avoid the problems that Nyal points out, one adjusts the crossover (low pass) on the sub so that the sub rolls off at the same frequency that the main speakers have their natural bass roll off. Some subs also allow for some adjustment of the slope of their roll off to better integrate them with the main speakers. In my experience, if one has main speakers with some response into the mid thirties (in room, not by specification) setting the crossover frequency on the sub(s) around 40 Hz. will usually result in good integration with proper position and phase adjustment.

While it is nice to have a full spectrum analyzer, ones ears and a good test disc can work just as well (after all, ultimately the system will be for listening, not measuring). Both Stereophile and Nordost test CDs have bass frequency test tones that can be used to get good integration between subs and main stereo speakers.

Phase and time delays are another issue-unless the distance from the sub to the ears is the same as the difference from the main speaker drivers to the ears, there will be some non integration in the time domain, phase controls on subs can at least adjust this TD so that it does not result in cancellation effects (although in typical installations, the subs are usually farther from the listening position than the mains, and nothing can "speed up" the sub to "catch up" to the mains-but phase can be adjusted so the subs are close to one cycle behind, hence not resulting in much cancellation).

Additionally, for music reproduction, less additional bass is almost always better than more. In a home theatre system, one may just want huge bass for emotional impact on explosions, etc, but for music, add bass from the sub(s) slowly, it usually does not take much contribution for the sub(s) to make a big difference in the musical performance of the system, and if the sub(s) are contributing too much they can really muck things up. Remember that there is very little in music that has frequencies below 30 Hz (organ pedals, synthesizers, and not much else), but response below 30 Hz will substantially deepen the soundstage, as low level ambient details are often at very low frequencies. To me, one of the most impressive results of good sub set up is the increase in soundstage depth and ambience retrieval.

 

[earflappin]

Excellent post Barrows! One of the best so far in this thread. I totally agree. In fact, even as well integrated as my subs are I will often just turn them off and listen to my Abbey's sans subs. I get pretty flat in room response down to 35hz and what I find on a lot of music, what the subs add in terms of greater soundstage depth and LF extension, they take away in terms of taking away subtle dynamic shading in the LF.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Talked with a Vandersteen dealer today. There are three options for their inline roll-off-inducers (here I go, coining terms all over the place): the WX2-Variable ($75), the X2-Fixed ($120) and the M5-HP ($895). The latter two have very high quality capacitors so as to not degrade the signal; the WX2, by contrast, is a throw-away. Apparently, you use the WX2 to determine the best settings and then go on to order an X2 with those settings. The M5-HP, by contrast, is a variable setting device, and FWIW, it comes with the Vandersteen 5a, a $15k+ speaker. As mentioned, all three devices fit inline between an amp and preamp, and work on 2 variables, the high-pass filter setting and the input impedance of the amp.

 

Needless to say, the X2-Fixed is the preferred option -- but only if you know or have settled on your amp. Which I haven't yet -- I need speakers first, then I'm going to worry about finding the right amp to drive them. Still, very interesting and more data/options to fit into the equation.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Ok, so. Went by my friendly neighborhood crack -- err, audio -- dealer today to pick up a replacement slo-blo I blew out of my Plinius (oops). While there, I borrowed some old Auralex "Pro" Columns to use as bass traps. Apparently these aren't made anymore, but seem to resemble the bass traps I've seen in dealerships all over -- some kind of rigid structure with high-density foam, covered by some Guilford of Maine cloth. As good as RealTraps or GIK? No idea. But I stuck 'em in the corners, floor to ceiling and fired up the Velodyne's bass sweep tones ... and the huge hump is now gone. And now I can turn the sub up from 3 and not have it overwhelm the room. Sweet!

 

Next up: Reference 3a MM De Capo IIs w/ stands. Borrowed those at the same time as the bass traps. Gonna set those up tonight and see how well they play with the sub in my room.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

The Reference 3a MM De Capo II are on their stands, sitting in for my reference pair of Merlin VSM-MMe and driven by my EL-34 tube integrated.

 

First impressions: seductive. The speakers roll off a bit higher than the Merlins, but not a whole lot. Integration is a bit tough as I still haven't found a great location for that single sub yet, but the sound is very natural. These are some very, very nice transducers.

 

I'm going to do some swapping in and out with the Merlins during the week and see what's what.

 

BTW, I went out for a local's demo of his Linkwitz Orion++ implementation. For those of you that haven't heard these, I cannot recommend this experience enough. It's an amazing speaker. The bass is extraordinary. Ultimately, this ought to be a top contender in anyone's auditions. Not sure this is my cuppa, but it sure is interesting.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

http://www.av123.com//index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=185&category_id=36&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37

 

These things look amazing. This, however, does not:

 

http://www.timescall.com/news_story.asp?ID=20988

 

Hope none of you got stuck.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I've been noodling around what it is that failed to overwhelm me about the Orion+. I mean, yes, they did sound pretty amazing. The speakers have very high quality drivers and have very nice features, specs, and I'm certain that the Wood Artistry version is drop dead gorgeous.

 

The version I heard was made from plans, very early in the dev cycle, and had been upgraded several times as the design changed over time. I had to extrapolate past the hand-painted look and ignore some buzzing due to some elements being taped together instead of glued (LOL -- sounds worse than it was). All that aside, there was still something missing. Bass was great, absolutely no complaints there! But there was a little life, or richness, lacking in the mid-range. A little hardness on the highs.

 

I think that the difficulties lie here: if you have ever heard the differences that different speaker cables or amps can make on the performance of a speaker -- and further, you believe that the differences can be significant -- then you'll be disappointed with the Orion+. The crossovers are hand made, which is great. But what's not clear is if they couldn't be more ... sophisticated? Smooth? Transparent? Whatever. Ditto the amp. (Oh, right -- you should know that this thing is a package deal. $8200 gets you a fully built speaker, an amp, and all the wire). The amp is 12 channels (!) of 60wpc power. Not the most robust amp, and it will not crush the loudest playback, compressing or simply cutting out entirely. But the most obvious (to me, at least) place for improvement was the cabling. Each speaker is a quad-amped, so that's 4 runs of cable to each amp. Lots of wire, in other words. An opportunity for serious impact. Or serious detriment. AFAIK, the cables they use are not "audiophile" quality -- they're off-the-shelf Radio Shack. On the plus side, they've recently switched over to Blue Jean. Better, IMO, but still ... not there.

 

So the question is, what would they sound like with "good" amps with sufficient headroom and good cabling. Of course, that's 4 stereo amps and 4 sets of speaker cabling, to test that out. Is it worth it? Not sure, but even if it is -- even if these changes can catapult this speaker into "world-class" status -- that speaker is no longer in the "terrifically affordable for a full range offering".

 

So, the take away? Consider this speaker especially if you're going to invest in the non-standard amps and cables. Or if you're going to build it yourself.

 

[Daphne]

Hi Scot:

This past Saturday I dropped off a couple of vintage posters I was able to find for one of my employees. He lives in an older section of West Palm Beach where most of the houses were built during the late 1940’s (after WW II). He has completely renovated the Mediterranean/Florida style home over the past three years. What was once the living and dining rooms is now just one long living room 14’ x 32’ with an 8’ 9” high ceiling. At the far end he has a pair of Legacy Whisper HD speakers. Between the speakers was a small audio rack with three Krell components (pre-amp, amp, and CD player) and a turntable on top. The speakers sounded wonderful, with the same open baffle design of the Orion’s. They completely filled the room with sound and had an extraordinary large sweet listening area. The imagining was not limited to width and depth, but the vertical axis was impressive sitting or standing.

 

A long narrow room, with high efficiency speakers (~95 db), with excellent deep bass (4 - 15” woofers per speaker), and a large listening area, well, I naturally thought of your situation. I have listened to pair of Orion’s that were well made, and from what I can recall the Legacy Whispers are several levels above the Orion’s in sound quality and overall construction and finish. At around $15,000 new they are an impressive value for a full range speaker, because from the sound quality and size I immediately thought $25,000 to $30,000 and possibly more.

 

Anyway, what I thought would be a 10 minute visit turned into a two hour listening session. Also, I do not know of any dealers that have Legacy speakers. They are worth checking out in my opinion. At least visit their website for details. They could be more that you are looking for.

 

Daphne

 

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I've been looking at these speakers for something like 5 years now, wondering. They sure are impressive looking. I've been wondering what they sound like, plotting for an audition, scheming as to how I could afford them, &c. I think they're intimidating as all hell, very nifty looking, and to all reports, just wonderful.

 

Ultimately, I don't think these monsters are for me just yet. They're actually too big for my current needs -- and like any big/tall speaker, I think their sweet spot is going to be at distances a bit farther out than my almost-near-field approach is demanding.

 

As my speaker search has progressed, my interest evolved. Not surprising. Anyway, I'm currently looking at some monitors from Reference 3a, the MM de Capo II's. They're relatively easy to drive, sound a bit less harsh/strident than my Merlins but image better than my Totems, and best of all, they're cheap and I can drive them with some SET amps. Add a couple of nice Velodyne subwoofers, and I think I'm done.

 

The only wrinkle I can think of at this point is the Geddes speakers, which I'm going to give a listen to next week (thanks in advance to earflappin!).

 

[Gulinias]

I did not read to the end but I definitely would rule out that which you can not hear. I can hear the silverbacks and they are wonderful but I would never spend that kind of money unheard. I love the Sonus Faber line and I would surely look at them. The Focal line in the 1000 series or the utopia diablos is very nice. verity is also quite nice and worth a listen. i think there are many great speakers so pick the best you can seriously audition. Do not forget your room but I see you have not. I could think of others I have heard but from the lines I just mentioned I could find something that would give me tears of sonic bliss. Bow if I really understood computer audio life would be grand. I have never heard this combo but for 18k I think the Diablos with a pair of JL audio subs would be quite awesome.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I have had the great fortune to visit our CA colleague Earflappin yesterday to audition his marvelous Geddes speakers. As you can probably tell, I was very impressed. Zero compression even at silly volumes and easily and masterfully driven by his entubenated Atma-Sphere amps. Very clean. Great imaging even with non-optimal room placement or room layout. Bass? Oh, yeah, it had bass. A lot of that was via room reinforcement, but even without subs (of which he has 3), I was very impressed. To me, they seemed very like the Audio Note speakers in shape/size and given their sealed nature, they can also be located in the room similarly -- as in, right up into a corner -- which is rather disconcerting (at least to me), but very effective. Even with the odd toe-in (so that they cross in front of the listener, not behind), the sound field was very even across the, admittedly, narrow room (David -- what is your living, ~14' across?) and I was able to stand up and move around and still hear much of that sweet-spot sound. Yes, the intersection was better -- but the off-axis was very, very good.

 

If you visit http://www.gedlee.com for more info, you'll notice the pricing. Unfortunately, that's per speaker, so the Summas (the top of the line Geddes) are $7k a pair with the Abbey's coming in at about half that. Earl Geddes indicated that the lead time (at least for the Summas) is several months, which is also unfortunate, and will probably take them out of the running for me. Probably. LOL. Still, very impressive speakers. Highly recommended, especially for tube lovers. 95dB and a low ~30's Hz (or lower, it was hard to tell) response, what's not to like?

 

I suppose the complaint one could lodge has to do with the fit and finish. The face, top & sides are all black molded plastic. The back is a separate piece. The default, textured black, isn't unpleasant, per se, but one could wish for a prettier set of clothes, and at $7k for a pair of Geddes, I would at the very least opt for the glossy finish. Legit complaint? Maybe. Also, that foam plug is a little odd, though it is integral and required by the design. Overall, these are not the speakers that your friends are going to look at and say, holy cow, that's expensive! Cosmetics aside, the SQ is ostensibly what you're buying your speakers for, and on this score, the Abbey's sure deliver. I'm told the Summas are "more so", but not having heard them, I can't speak to this. That said, after experiencing the Abbey's, I am very curious -- and optimistic -- as to how they could possibly sound better.

 

These are some great speakers.

 

Which invites comparisons! So, let me recount some of my more recent experiences ....

 

The Reference 3a speakers are crossoverless in the midrange, which means that in their 2-way designs, there is no crossover at all. That makes these speakers do (and I hate to use this word) magical things with voices. The sound is truly beautiful, and I think the monitors are perhaps one of the best (and least expensive) speakers I've ever heard for small arrangements and most rock, jazz, & chamber music. It loses a bit on big orchestral numbers -- but I suspect that's a big-speaker thing and not a ding on a small 2-way. Anyway, the Geddes Abbey speakers are about twice the (vertical) size of the MM de Capo IIs and have a woofer that's 4" bigger. Both are fairly efficient, and within 3dB of each other, and both present a flat 8 ohms to the amps. Translation: both are candidates for us low-power tube amp nutcases. Comparing them sonically, I think the Geddes has a better (smoother, less congested) high-end, and much better bass -- though the 3a can do some crazy things for a monitor -- and may not require a sub, depending on the room. In my setup, the 3a's will require at least two subs (though I'm beginning to think 3 (!) may be the way to go). However, I think the mid range on the 3a's are tough to beat. The Geddes come pretty close, but ....

 

Anyway, the cost between the Abbeys and the MM de Capo II's are pretty close, with list prices for the former going for $3000 and the latter for $3200. Given that the Geddes are internet direct, I suspect that there's no room for negotiation there, while I'd be very surprised if your Reference 3a dealer wouldn't cut you a rather tasty discount.

 

All in all, I think this one is a draw. I'd love to hear the Geddes Summa, but at a $4k premium over the Abbey's, I'm not sure what point there'd be comparing that to a 3a monitor. More likely a Grand Veena would be a better comparison, but that's a 5 ohm, 90dB efficient speaker compared to an 8 ohm 96dB efficient speaker ... but at least their price points are more similar.

 

Comparing the Geddes Abbey to a Linkwitz Orion+ is interesting. The Orion+ is at least twice the cost of the Abbey and has far deeper bass. Both are internet direct. The Orion+, as ordered from Wood Artistry, is gorgeous. Definitely a show piece. The Geddes ... not so much. But sonically, it's no question. I'd rather have the less expensive Abbeys over the Orion+ rig, at least as I've heard them. YMMV, but to me, it's not a question. The Abbeys were clearly better at everything, bar the bass, where the Orions may well have been the best that I've heard to date -- right up to clipping, which with only 60wpc, happens earlier than one might wish.

 

Comparing the Abbeys to my Merlins is pretty tough. Both are excellent speakers. I think the 3a eclipses them both in the midrange, and I think the Merlins are a bit "hot" on-axis. Bass on the Merlins v the Abbeys has a similar sound, but the remember, the Abbeys have a 12" driver as compared to the Merlins' 6". That Merlin driver is quite accomplished, but physics is physics -- the Abbey wins here.

 

I think my Totems (Model 1 & Shaman) are simply outclassed by all of these speakers, even if the Shaman has the deepest bass of the bunch (10dB down at 16Hz, 3dB down in the mid-low 20s), but the Orion bass is cleaner and more articulate and all of the speakers have sexier mids and smoother highs.

 

More to come ....

 

[Gulinias]

It appears you are still looking and I admit I did not hear these but Don better Audio in Cleveland has the Shindo speakers. He says they are his favorites and he carries many quality lines. I do know the Sonus Fabers sounded very nice with the Shindo Amps and Pre amp and a mac with the Naim dac. I can not really imagine what the Shindos must sound like, He is a nice guy and the shop is a house, He is appointment only and I know people fly in to hear his gear. If you are considering 40 k speakers I would think you should probably hear the Shindos. He is a Devore Silverback dealer as well as Sonus Faber,Verity,Vandersteen and others. Good luck in your search.

 

[earflappin]

Scot, excellent write up on your audition of the Geddes Abbey speakers.

 

Regarding your questions on my interim residence - the listening room dimensions are 12.5' wide, 18' long and 11' high, although the room (as you know) opens into the rest of the first floor. As we discussed, that room is far from ideal for a number of reasons: (1) narrowness of the room, (2) speakers are on make shift stands that do not isolate them from floor vibrations, (3) there are no room treatments and (4) the front of the room is a bay window which acts as a concentrator of sound reflections. Proper listening room design would say the front wall should be highly diffusive and/or absorptive. The fact the speakers still sound so good is a testament to their controlled directivity and overall design.

 

Regarding bass, as we discussed, the Abbey's are flat to 50hz where they roll off at 12db per octave. The Orion + specs show response going down to 20 hz (makes sense as they have a tweeter, midrange and two woofers). Dr. Geddes believes the best way to get even LF response in real world rooms is to use multiple asymmetrically located subs as opposed to putting the LF drivers in the mains. I use three, but as you know, two were out for a coming audio event so we listened to the Abbeys sans subs.

 

Again, great review. This type of information is helpful to all of us who so rarely have the time or venue for such comparisons.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Thanks for the clarifications! And thanks again for the opportunity to listen.

 

I think we need to set up a circle of audio reviewers. Call it something clever. And then have vendors send us cool kit that we can send around the ring and all post our experiences with it. That'd be very cool.

 

As for my speaker quest, I'm planning on doing a bake-off in the next several weeks between two Reference 3a speakers, the MM de Capo II with sub and the Grand Veena. My local dealer has some nice tube gear on order that should be ideal to run them -- and hopefully that'll be enough to make a decision.

 

[cfmsp]

 

"I'm planning on doing a bake-off in the next several weeks between two Reference 3a speakers, the MM de Capo II with sub and the Grand Veena."

 

Scot, Keep us posted. I've just picked up one of Don Garbers' Fi Super X 300B amps (for a second system in weekend house) and am looking for more efficient speakers than my Virgos. I'll be selecting between Devores (9s or new Orangutan) and 3As (de Capo or ??).

 

good luck,

clay

 

 

 

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I think the Orangutans look pretty interesting, but I haven't seen any info on their projected dynamic range, though, I'm sure the little 3xls should be just great, too. I think I lean more toward monitors in that I suspect I'd prefer to play with subs, but I'd sure appreciate the extra sensitivity of the new Orangutans.

 

But FWIW, my experience with DeVore speakers is that there isn't a lot to write home about -- that is, they're really neutral and make few (if any) mistakes, so there's really very little to ID as a flaw, shortcoming or even as a character. They *tend* to do everything *very* well ... but nothing superlatively, if you know what I mean. They're hard to describe, and generally (IMO, YMMV!) not terrifically memorable. And of course, I have not heard his new speakers at all.

 

The Reference 3a are different. There is something very different about their mid range -- it's addicting, seductive, and very easy on the ears. Clearly different from my Totems and my Merlins.

 

BTW, the Grand Veenas are only 90db, while the de Capos are only 92dB. Good, but not great -- just something to keep in mind.

 

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

So, here I was en route to low output SET bliss. Locked and loaded.

 

Well, I ... err ... uhm, yeah. I seem to have made a detour. Again. Whoops.

 

I made the mistake of going back and listening to the new Magnepans. Ooops.

 

As I might have mentioned, I that Maggie sound. And the new Maggies are the best sounding Maggies I've ever heard ....

 

Ok, no, that's not right. Let me qualify that. The 20.1 are amazing. The 3.6 are about 90-95% of the 20.1s. The 1.7s are both less and more than the 3.6. How? Better integration. More top to bottom coherence. Some trade-offs, though. The bass on the 3.6 is lower, but the highs on the 1.7 are more extended. Sound quality is pretty similar; the mids on the 3.6 might have been a touch richer.

 

The thing that put it over the top? The price.

 

Any way, yes, Reference 3a makes a great speaker and yes, they sound awesome with tubes. If I was building for a small office space, they'd be pretty much perfect. But that's not the room I'm building for.

 

Okay, so now on to the next thing: amps and pre. Time for a new thread ....

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

So, put my deposit down last week for the Maggies. I was very happy. Then, I left the store and started the search for a matching amp/pre. And that's where the wheels came off the bus. Seems that I have, on one hand, the Magnepan sound. On the other, a burgeoning desire to go SET. So, looks like I'm rethinking again. Which brings me back to the de Capo's w/ subs, and this time, run by some Manley 300b SEPP amps and a Manley 300b pre. Ahem. What can I say? I'm changeable. Fickle, even. LOL. So, now I need to decide whether or not to cancel the Maggie order ....

 

[Gulinias]

The speakers are obviously a large part of your sound. You liked the Maggies the best and thought they filled the bill for your room. Did you hear then with low powered sets? I doubt you did. I would think long and hard before going away from the Maggies. I think both approaches have validity but remember you will live with these speakers for a while. ( well maybe not lol) I would not let the desire to use one type of amplification rule your final sound. I do not envy you as I have a feeling if you cancel the Maggies you will end up longing for that presentation and become dissatisfied with the 3A presentation. I want to make clear I am not a pan fan but that does not matter and you are. The friends I know who love Maggies always end up back with them in some form. Think long and hard on what your doing is my advice.

 

[cfmsp]

 

Scot,

 

have you considered the 3A Grand Veena?

 

 

clay

 

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Still haven't canceled the Maggie order, but haven't received them either. Not sure what I'm going to do, but (today, at least) I'm thinking of keeping my Merlins, adding subs, and running the whole with some low-powered tube amps.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Yes, I've considered it. Great sounding speaker -- and very similar to the Merlins. About as easy to drive, about the same response range, both are excellent sonically and about the same cost (except I have the Merlins already). Six one way, half-dozen the other, it seems. But yes, the GV's are really nice sounding speakers. If I owned neither, they'd be a serious contender.