HOW DOES A PERFECT DAC ANALOG SIGNAL LOOK DIFFERENT THAN A CHEAP DAC

[Charles Hansen]

3 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

I don't see any torroidal transformers.

 

Hi Beer,

 

This is another common audiophile myth. Toroidal transformers were originally only used by the aerospace industry simply because they are lighter than other transformer designs. When going to space, every gram matters and it doesn't matter how much it costs. Originally toroidal transformers were insanely expensive because they could only be wound by hand. Picture yourself with a needle and thread, trying to wrap a spiral cotton cover on a bagel. Better yet, try it and actually see how hard it is.

 

Then in the '70s or so, someone invented a very clever machine to automate this process. (Whomever invented it was very, very clever indeed! There are probably videos on YouTube showing them in action.) That changed everything. Then it turned out that toroidal transformers are mainly used because they are cheaper than other designs.

 

But they still have the "aerospace" mystique....

 

They are undoubtedly better than any other design for aerospace applications where weight is the primary objective. (Can you now see that if the labor costs are removed by automation that a toroidal design will be cheaper? If it weighs less, that means there is less copper and less steel, so the material costs are lower.) But for audio, normally one is not that concerned about weight. The only exception is for super-high-power amplifiers for PA systems that go "on tour" with the rest of the band. Nowadays all those designs use switching power supplies instead of toroids, simply due to the weight decrease.

 

And in turn a modern switching power supply is cheaper than a toroidal transformer, which is why they are becoming more and more common. But for the very best sound quality, I would not use a toroidal power transformer - or a switching power supply. The main reasons to do so are for light weight and/or low cost, not for high performance audio.

 

Hope this helps,

Charles Hansen

[beerandmusic]

10 minutes ago, Charles Hansen said:

 

Hi Beer,

 

This is another common audiophile myth. Toroidal transformers were originally only used by the aerospace industry simply because they are lighter than other transformer designs. When going to space, every gram matters and it doesn't matter how much it costs. Originally toroidal transformers were insanely expensive because they could only be wound by hand. Picture yourself with a needle and thread, trying to wrap a spiral cotton cover on a bagel. Better yet, try it and actually see how hard it is.

 

Then in the '70s or so, someone invented a very clever machine to automate this process. (Whomever invented it was very, very clever indeed! There are probably videos on YouTube showing them in action.) That changed everything. Then it turned out that toroidal transformers are mainly used because they are cheaper than other designs.

 

But they still have the "aerospace" mystique....

 

They are undoubtedly better than any other design for aerospace applications where weight is the primary objective. (Can you now see that if the labor costs are removed by automation that a toroidal design will be cheaper? If it weighs less, that means there is less copper and less steel, so the material costs are lower.) But for audio, normally one is not that concerned about weight. The only exception is for super-high-power amplifiers for PA systems that go "on tour" with the rest of the band. Nowadays all those designs use switching power supplies instead of toroids, simply due to the weight decrease.

 

And in turn a modern switching power supply is cheaper than a toroidal transformer, which is why they are becoming more and more common. But for the very best sound quality, I would not use a toroidal power transformer - or a switching power supply. The main reasons to do so are for light weight and/or low cost, not for high performance audio.

 

Hope this helps,

Charles Hansen

thanks for the information...so WHAT IS the most expensive part(s) in both a $500 DAC and a $3000 DAC?   Or is the engineering costs the only real factor?

[Charles Hansen]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

How about this article: 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/how-eight-conglomerates-dominate-japanese-industry-180960356/

 

Is it racist? Was TPP racist then?

 

Hi Jabbr,

 

Awesome article! Thanks for the link. It's like that old saying, "Man, when you cross that borderline, you're in a whole other country!"

 

Cheers,

Charles Hansen

[opus101]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

The comments are offensive and would get anyone working for a "large corporation," in government, or at a university fired or sanctioned.

 

That's a reflection of today's PC culture and by no means means the comments were inaccurate.

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

Indeed ...

 

The takeaway from all the experiments and fiddling I've done over the years is that the quality and potential of a particular component in an audio system is far, far less important than the degree of effort that goes into 'debugging' the entire system, and refining the key aspects - I have heard far too many ultra-expensive combos of kit over the years that have sounded a disasterous mess, to have any other opinion.

 

I have had great satisfaction in prodding bits of gear that many people would have thought ready for the rubbish bin into producing highly enjoyable audio, far superior to the normal standard in key areas - a "proof of concept" exercise that is very rewarding.

I understand and agree with this...so in your opinion, let's assume you have debugged your entire system and happy with it from head to toe...once you are at that point, do you believe you can reach "different levels of SQ" by swapping out the dac?

between say a $500 and a $1K dac, or from a $1K to a $2K dac? or little difference between a $500 and a $2K dac?  Would you say that it is marginal improvements or a whole new level?  What dac do you have, and do you think you could be content if you swapped it out for a TEAC NT503 for example?

[Charles Hansen]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

Indeed ...

 

The takeaway from all the experiments and fiddling I've done over the years is that the quality and potential of a particular component in an audio system is far, far less important than the degree of effort that goes into 'debugging' the entire system, and refining the key aspects - I have heard far too many ultra-expensive combos of kit over the years that have sounded a disasterous mess, to have any other opinion.

 

I have had great satisfaction in prodding bits of gear that many people would have thought ready for the rubbish bin into producing highly enjoyable audio, far superior to the normal standard in key areas - a "proof of concept" exercise that is very rewarding.

 

Hi Fas,

 

Agree 100%. In my experience, the fine details in setting up a particular system are at least as important as the components in the system itself.

 

And as a designer of components (not resistors and capacitors components, but amps and preamps components), I have found the same to be true inside the enclosure as well. Fine tuning circuit values (or even the circuit itself) can make far more difference than changing DAC chips.

 

Cheers,

Charles Hansen

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

How about this article: 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/how-eight-conglomerates-dominate-japanese-industry-180960356/

 

Is it racist? Was TPP racist then?

 

Note the difference in the language used.  

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, Charles Hansen said:

 

Hi Fas,

 

Agree 100%. In my experience, the fine details in setting up a particular system are at least as important as the components in the system itself.

 

And as a designer of components (not resistors and capacitors components, but amps and preamps components), I have found the same to be true inside the enclosure as well. Fine tuning circuit values (or even the circuit itself) can make far more difference than changing DAC chips.

 

Cheers,

Charles Hansen

 

Charles, this makes sense. So, how do you go about fine-tuning circuit values? Do you measure their effect, or do you listen to the changes? Trying to understand your process.

 

[Charles Hansen]

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

It was $3k when it was made about 10 years ago. SOTA at the time  and was my reference DAC until recently. Has not been in my system since I started using the Gustard Pro.

 

 

Hi PKane,

 

That Gustard looks to be much more nicely made than the LKS. While his English is at least a million times better than my Chinese, it's hard to tell exactly what is going on there. But the photos show some very nice details. It's hard for me to understand how they can sell this for $830, even direct from the manufacturer as just the parts cost and the shipping are many hundreds of dollars. This is clearly not a garage operation, so one possibility is that (as with Oppo) they are being subsidized by the Chinese government.

 

If you prefer to support the Chinese economy over the US economy, I would definitely buy the Gustard over the LKS. In either case you probably won't get much in the way of service or support. If anything goes wrong, you will have to ship the unit back to China. The OP (beer and music) pointed out in one post how the Chinese government's subsidies of shipping had caused some problems for his line of work (before he retired). Sometimes it's good to look at the big picture and not just "what's the best deal I can get for me". But it's still more or less a free country, so you can buy whatever you want to buy for any (or no) reason at all.

 

Cheers,

Charles Hansen

[Charles Hansen]

58 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

What you are referring to is the Japanese concept of a Shokunin (craftsman/artisan), not a Samurai (warrior).

 

In traditional Japanese society, shokunin were on the third rung of society after warriors and farmers, but above merchants.

 

Hi Kuma,

 

Thanks for clarifying. I am just a dumb "round eye" when it comes to understanding Japanese history and culture. All I know is that I have been there perhaps a dozen times and their culture is completely different than US culture (if you can even call it that). There are many US expatriates living in Japan simply because they like the Japanse culture much more than that of their homeland. If I could still travel, I would love to live in Japan for a few years, just to learn from their culture and history.

 

Cheers,

Charles Hansen

[opus101]

9 minutes ago, Charles Hansen said:

 just the parts cost and the shipping are many hundreds of dollars. This is clearly not a garage operation, so one possibility is that (as with Oppo) they are being subsidized by the Chinese government.

 

Where are you getting your parts costs from ? US-based distribution? You might be surprised how much cheaper parts are in China compared to the US. Just one example I've encountered quite recently - TDK inductors. On Mouser even at the highest quantities SLF7045s go for around 50c a pop. Here in China in hobbyist quantities they're about 10c. It could be they're fakes but I've measured several and they conform closely enough to the DS.

[beerandmusic]

17 minutes ago, Charles Hansen said:

 

Hi PKane,

 

That Gustard looks to be much more nicely made than the LKS. While his English is at least a million times better than my Chinese, it's hard to tell exactly what is going on there. But the photos show some very nice details. It's hard for me to understand how they can sell this for $830, even direct from the manufacturer as just the parts cost and the shipping are many hundreds of dollars. This is clearly not a garage operation, so one possibility is that (as with Oppo) they are being subsidized by the Chinese government.

 

If you prefer to support the Chinese economy over the US economy, I would definitely buy the Gustard over the LKS. In either case you probably won't get much in the way of service or support. If anything goes wrong, you will have to ship the unit back to China. The OP (beer and music) pointed out in one post how the Chinese government's subsidies of shipping had caused some problems for his line of work (before he retired). Sometimes it's good to look at the big picture and not just "what's the best deal I can get for me". But it's still more or less a free country, so you can buy whatever you want to buy for any (or no) reason at all.

 

Cheers,

Charles Hansen

Regarding chinese govt subsidizing shipping, not specifically a problem for me, i am just saying it irks me how chinese can ship all the way from china to usa for just pennies, and the same thing will cost much more to ship just inside the usa.

look on ebay for shipping costs for anything from china...it's usually FREE or like $1.13 or something ridiculously cheap.  The chinese govt pays the postage to make exports to usa CHEAPER.  We should tax the hell out of everything from CHINA.

 

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1536&bih=678&btnG=Search&q=chinese+shipping+subsidized+ebay

[pkane2001]

32 minutes ago, Charles Hansen said:

If you prefer to support the Chinese economy over the US economy, I would definitely buy the Gustard over the LKS. In either case you probably won't get much in the way of service or support. If anything goes wrong, you will have to ship the unit back to China. The OP (beer and music) pointed out in one post how the Chinese government's subsidies of shipping had caused some problems for his line of work (before he retired). Sometimes it's good to look at the big picture and not just "what's the best deal I can get for me". But it's still more or less a free country, so you can buy whatever you want to buy for any (or no) reason at all.

 

Hi Charles,

 

I understand and feel the same pain you do. But I view the problem and the solution differently.

 

Chinese economy is part of a global economy, as is the US. Despite the recent movement towards isolationism, I don't believe that's a viable long-term option. Global markets are brutal, and until we figure out how to compete, we'll be all complaining about Chinese eating our lunch. The solution, in my opinion, is not to boycott or to tax Chinese goods and manufacturing. The solution is to out-innovate, out-produce, and out-compete on the new terms, in the new marketplace. I know this is easier said than done, but free markets are like that. We either figure out how to compete, or we won't survive. I have faith that US can continue to dominate, but it'll take a lot of work, a lot of innovation, and yes, some pain.

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

It was $3k when it was made about 10 years ago. SOTA at the time  and was my reference DAC until recently. Has not been in my system since I started using the Gustard Pro.

 

The Gustard X20 pro was on my radaar before i read about the LKS.  What dacs have you tried in comparison with the x20pro?  Any significant improvement?  What was the $3K dac and did you buy it new?

[beerandmusic]

7 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Hi Charles,

 

I understand and feel the same pain you do. But I view the problem and the solution differently.

 

Chinese economy is part of a global economy, as is the US. Despite the recent movement towards isolationism, I don't believe that's a viable long-term option. Global markets are brutal, and until we figure out how to compete, we'll be all complaining about Chinese eating our lunch. The solution, in my opinion, is not to boycott or to tax Chinese goods and manufacturing. The solution is to out-innovate, out-produce, and out-compete on the new terms, in the new marketplace. I know this is easier said than done, but free markets are like that. We either figure out how to compete, or we won't survive. I have faith that US can continue to dominate, but it'll take a lot of work, a lot of innovation, and yes, some pain.

you can't compete when they slave the labor for pennies....our standard of living is much higher...will NEVER compete.  We will die in nuclear war before that happens.

[opus101]

The slave labour has long ago left China - try Vietnam, Indonesia for that these days.

[beerandmusic]

1 minute ago, opus101 said:

The slave labour has long ago left China - try Vietnam, Indonesia for that these days.

 

it may have gotten better, but i don't believe they have the middle class we have.

i read they are even buying slaves from north korea.

 

[Ralf11]

I'll just add that the US was in exactly this position in the mid- to late- 1800s.  A source of cheap, crudely made consumer items that were subsidized and shipped to the rest of the world.  The main product was rough hewn furniture.  And as today, there were huge numbers of transportation accidents due to alcohol (but falling off a horse was less lethal).

[Ralf11]

We don't have the middle class we had...

[opus101]

Your (meaning US) middle class is evaporating fast - when did you last check?

[Ralf11]

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/02/the-new-power-of-the-global-middle-class/253375/

[beerandmusic]

5 minutes ago, opus101 said:

Your (meaning US) middle class is evaporating fast - when did you last check?

even min wage here is between 11-15/hr where i read in china 5/2017 is $2.90

you couldn't live in usa on that.

[beerandmusic]

uf

8 minutes ago, opus101 said:

Your (meaning US) middle class is evaporating fast - when did you last check?

US wouldn't ship so much business overseas if the taxes and labor rates were even...

[pkane2001]

4 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

it may have gotten better, but i don't believe they have the middle class we have.

i read they are even buying slaves from north korea.

 

 

It's a process. China is transforming, just like US is transforming, just like India has nearly transformed. Wages are rising, as is the standard of living. Population is becoming more affluent. Unfortunately, US is undergoing the opposite transformation. This is the effect of the global market. 

 

If we do nothing, the two will meet and stabilize somewhere in the middle, with China rising, US falling. That's why innovation is so critical, as are new market strategies, better technologies, and changing the playing field by creating and dominating new markets.

[opus101]

3 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

uf

US wouldn't ship so much business overseas if the taxes and labor rates were even...

 

That's precisely what is destroying the US middle class. It all evens out in the end of course because shipping your jobs to China pushes up wages and living standards amongst Chinese, so then those chasing the lowest wages have to go to Vietnam.