Kii Three - my impressions and pro reviews

[6o4o]

Thnx guys for all the inputs! Really appreciate it!

 

Question is if the NUC USB will be about the same as my Elac Discovery DS-S101G with optical SPDIF output.

From an electrical engineering perspective I would like to know why a digital signal is dependend on cable, galvanic isolation, SNR etc. as long as the digital data is not corrupted. I wonder if most of this stuff are just good marketing guys trying to sell that stuff?

 

Before I spend 700$ on a USB cable I buy a quality streamer (like Nucleus?) And go optical and be done with it. I thought with the NUC I could built a system that won't kill my wallet.😒

[Mazza]

Hi 

 

the chance of some having an elac-nuc-kii combo to advise you might be a tough call!

 

with respect to cables- your ears and a good return policy would be the recommended route

[simonp]

9 minutes ago, 6o4o said:

I wonder if most of this stuff are just good marketing guys trying to sell that stuff?

 

Grimm mu-1,Taiko, Pink Faun all very serious about audio. They don't build a streamer if a simple nuc performs the same. It's about timing, noise and not about data lost. I had an owner of a Kii system at my house and he was totally blown away by the difference. He played with a bluesound but it was gone the next day. He bought an auralic streamer.

[simonp]

It also goes into digital audio; the weakest link determines the sound. If I replace the Lush usb for a standard usb cable, the magic is gone.

[6o4o]

Not sure of the protocol and how it is done inside Kii, but I would stream such a protocol independent from the clock of the DAC/Kii into a buffer. The DAC/DSP takes the data and samples at it's own accurate clock.

In this case it would no matter if the USB clock is off by a lot as long as it keeps the buffer full. Also digital should make no difference on noise.

 

But maybe I am missing something?

 

If we talk about analog output then yeah, that is a total different story. But this I want to avoid. I want to keepp digital.

[6o4o]

1 minute ago, simonp said:

It also goes into digital audio; the weakest link determines the sound. If I replace the Lush usb for a standard usb cable, the magic is gone.

Interesting! I really wonder the electrical physics behind this.😏

[fas42]

32 minutes ago, 6o4o said:

Interesting! I really wonder the electrical physics behind this.😏

 

The comment that the weakest link determines the sound is exactly right - it is why we use the chain analogy; for an actual metal chain if almost all the links can handle 100 tonnes of forces, but a single one of the 100 links can only take 10 tonnes, then the chain is crippled, and can never do better than 10 tonnes in pulling on something ... most people in audio never really understand this, they keep adding adding links that can handle 500 tonnes, say, everywhere except where the weak one is; and despair when the SQ never reaches a standard that they hope for ...

 

USB is a poor mechanism for transferring digital audio data - not because the digital data is ever compromised, but because the structure of that link is highly prone to allowing electrical noise to transfer to the critical analogue areas of the chain; once that happens, the SQ is compromised. The enormous variety of "fixit" add-ons for the USB link is a giveaway that it is intrinsically a link of "10 tonnes" capacity - you therefore do what you have to do to try and strengthen it.

 

Electrical noise, from various sources, is the big killer of subjective SQ in digital audio - it was so the day the first CD player was released, and is still a major, major problem. There are no mysteries here ... merely a lack of interest by the industry in getting on top of it. No-one wants to measure what's going on; and hand-waving is used to push the whole thing further under the carpet, .

[6o4o]

Just found this interesting measurement on USB cables on good and bad DAC:

 

https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/do-usb-audio-cables-make-a-difference.1887/

 

I could install the NUC in very short distance of the Kii Control, so a very short cable would be possible. And yes, the longer a cable the more noise and low frequency noiseit can pick up, that is an EMC rule.

But he was testing an DAC that I would expect to be sensitive to noise. I still am searching for such a measurement with a pure digital input.

Maybe at the end I get a streamer like the Nucleus, very short stnadart USB cable and be done with it. :)

[firedog]

11 hours ago, simonp said:

 

I have discussed this with Bruno, he estimates that with a nuc or standard source you get 90% out of the Kii. I think that percentage is lower. I've used several sources here and they all sound different. I'm using an OpticalRendu now.

But then the question is this due to USB implementation vs optical, or some other aspect of the source? For instance are there USB sources that equal what you get with the optical?

 

I don't know how Bruno or anyone else arrives at a 90% percentage, but that seems VERY low. 

 

If I reduce the fidelity of my system by 10%, it should sound awful, not just a little worse. When I used the NUC instead of a high end streamer, I didn't hear that kind of difference. 

I think 98 or 99% is a more realistic way to put it.

And I think some people won't hear any difference. 

 

[6o4o]

I just discussed with my collegue who is a very good electrical engineer and also into audio (built his own tube amp).

He also can't think that a DAC is dependend on the USB clock. You sync the incoming data in the FPGA with it's internal (accurate) clock and then it continues do the DAC.
On isolated frontends jitter could be a topic, but also there are solutions on the FPGA side to fix this with clock processing.

The only thing he said as I also think could be noise through the shield (from the NUC power supply for example) that disturbs the Kii circuit and DAC part. But this would be heard as noise without listening to music. I would expect a system like Kii has a good filtering of such noise. The link I posted above is also noise that comes through the shield and the more length of the cable the more noise you will pick up from the air. 

Also remember, the digital data goes through a standart Ethernet cable from the Kii Control to the Box and from the box to the other box. And both might not be on the same mains supply. Also good way to pick up noise. So I expect the circuit inside the Kii to have a good isolation to GND noise.

Anyway, thanks for all the inputs, it's an interesting topic!

[Rubysea]

Last week was Kii Audio's Open House Week in their new facilities in Germany.
You could go there and visit the production location and meet the whole team. Also Bruno was there and you could talk to him.
You could get a guided tour and of course could also listen to the Kii + BXT in their new listening room.
What I found interesting is that at the end of each Kii Speaker assembly the speaker get's measured on a measuring stand by 2 microphones with a sweep (all takes around 40 sec.) and then gets a correction file for the DSP that sets every (driver) setting according to a narrow specification bandwidth (+/- 0.5 db). So basically every speaker is/sounds the same.
That stand is in the middle of one of the production halls and is run by a software/script that Bruno has specifically written to complete the task even within a "noisy" environment, so that there is no need for an expensive anechoic chamber to measure the speaker.
The speaker is put on a stand, then gets lifted up to the level of the second microphone, and measuring can begin. All is done from the desktop workplace you can see on the left within the picture.

[firedog]

5 minutes ago, Rubysea said:

Last week was Kii Audio's Open House Week in their new facilities in Germany.
You could go there and visit the production location and meet the whole team. Also Bruno was there and you could talk to him.
You could get a guided tour and of course could also listen to the Kii + BXT in their new listening room.
What I found interesting is that at the end of each Kii Speaker assembly the speaker get's measured on a measuring stand by 2 microphones with a sweep (all takes around 40 sec.) and then gets a correction file for the DSP that sets every (driver) setting according to a narrow specification bandwidth (+/- 0.5 db). So basically every speaker is/sounds the same.
That stand is in the middle of one of the production halls and is run by a software/script that Bruno has specifically written to complete the task even within a "noisy" environment, so that there is no need for an expensive anechoic chamber to measure the speaker.
The speaker is put on a stand, then gets lifted up to the level of the second microphone, and measuring can begin. All is done from the desktop workplace you can see on the left within the picture.

Cool. Still haven't heard the BXT. Am afraid I will want it once I've heard it.

[fpalm69]

My trip to Munich HIgh End Show and to Kii open house got cancelled.  Glad you made it and thanks for the report.  Yes, when I added the BXT to my Three it did everything better - dynamics, lower distortion/better resolution, bass response went deeper and clearer.  Did not know there was musical detail in the lower bass.

Hope to make the trip next year.

[Rubysea]

... and here's a report from a german audio online magazine (german text only) on the open house week with a few more pictures...
https://www.fairaudio.de/hintergrund/firmenbericht-kii-audio-in-hamminkeln-hausmesse-probehoeren/

[Cazzesman]

Well after 2 years and time spent waiting for a 2nd hand pair of BXT modules to come up locally I have finally bit the bullet.

 

I cant' bring myself to spend $25000 (Australian) on the new BXT module, so I have gone the poor mans route at a 5th of the price.

 

JL Audio D110 x 2

Minidsp SHD Studio (Dirac Live 3.0)

Minidsp 2x4 HD

Lindy SPDIF Digital / Toslink Audio Converter  (Studio only has Coaxial out and 2x4HD only has Toslink in)

 

The Studio and HD also give me the necessary 100ms delay I require for the Exact Latency with the Kii3's

 

Crossover will be at 50hz where the D110's will take over.    The Studio, 2x4HD and Convertor have arrived.   D110's in a few weeks. 

 

It could all be a pipe dream but by all accounts friends with Kii3's who have gone along a similar path i.e. adding a sub or 2 with the Kii3's, have been very, very happy with the result.

 

We will see in due course.

 

Regards Cazzesman  

 

 

 

 

[Cazzesman]

As listed the 

JL Audio D110 x 2

Minidsp SHD Studio (Dirac Live 3.0)

Minidsp 2x4 HD

Lindy SPDIF Digital / Toslink Audio Converter  (Studio only has Coaxial out and 2x4HD only has Toslink in) are now all in with the Kii 3's

 

I was abit of a REW luddite so a few audio mates popped over for a few glasses of Red Wine.     They helped be with the timing and volumes etc.      Ended up with 84 millisecond delay b/t Ki's and subs.

 

After watching the guys and some Youtube Vids on REW, I ran some more REW tests.  Most I was very happy with except for a 10db dip at 50 hz.     My cross over was at 50 so it was recommend I use the Butterworth xover to give a 3db boost over the LR xover.  

 

I followed some Youtube videos from Jeff Mery (very informative) to create some EQ filters below 100.   The filters went into the 2x4HD.    I then ran the Dirac Live 3.0 again.     Overall the corrected curve was very good the entire length except for about a 5db dip at 52hz.     I added 4db boost at 52 in the DL curve and Loaded it into the Studio.        I tried an 80hz xover but prefer the 50hz.   The 50 leaves all the vocals in the Kii3 and they sound better there.  A fraction Smoother and more lifelike.    110 roll off in DL is 48db at 18hz

 

Overall the Kii/110 combo has done exactly what I wanted.    I have greater effortless SPL overall and the midrange is open and stress free.    The Kii 3 red lights don't come on anymore at Volume.   Even at 95+ the midrange is stress free and clean.   The 110's are quick and tight.    Most listening is 80-87db.

 

I doubt I will find out if the BXT is worth 5 times the above combination of parts, but so far I am extremely happy with the sound.    There is plenty of flexibility with the Studio and 2x4HD.

 

From the images the room is 3metres wide and length is 9 metres  (3x3 + 4x6)

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

 

 

 

[Kelly]

Finally got a chance to hear the bxts. I helped someone setup a new set that replaced an ancient (and well loved) Vandersteen/ARC system.  It was in a very large room with main listening positions being about 16 feet from the plane of the speakers. Their power is no joke. They can absolutely blow your head off. They are dangerously easy to get to crazy loud volumes and sound completely clean. We experimented with various room positions and tone eq and found that we preferred the tone roll-off prescribed by mitchco (-4db at 2500hz.) The speakers ended up about 6 inches from the back wall due to practical room considerations. Boundary adjustments were a snap.

 

In addition to the lowest bass improvement, improvements in the mid and upper bass is significant. There is a bit more flesh on the bones, things marginally just a bit fuller sounding, especially at higher spl. The audiophile cliche “Flight of the Cosmic Hippo” is well served by the bxt. The tone and texture of Victor Wooten’s bass is more convincing than even the best headphone systems I have heard. Bass drums sound just a little more real and hit you harder than the Kii Three alone.

I would say that some claims of the BXT sounding like a completely different speaker system from the Three are a bit overblown. Coming back to my system, I have a small-ish room and have very rarely encountered the bass limiter, and that was basically when I was intentionally pushing the system looking for it. I don’t feel the need to add the BXTs for more than double the money. I really don’t even feel the need to add subs. The improvement is real, but the Three performs well enough for my use that the deminishing returns returns curve would be difficult to rationalize. For someone that has a huge room or needs high SPL, it is perfect (if costly.)
 

[fpalm69]

On 8/26/2022 at 5:13 PM, Kelly said:

Finally got a chance to hear the bxts. I helped someone setup a new set that replaced an ancient (and well loved) Vandersteen/ARC system.  It was in a very large room with main listening positions being about 16 feet from the plane of the speakers. Their power is no joke. They can absolutely blow your head off. They are dangerously easy to get to crazy loud volumes and sound completely clean. We experimented with various room positions and tone eq and found that we preferred the tone roll-off prescribed by mitchco (-4db at 2500hz.) The speakers ended up about 6 inches from the back wall due to practical room considerations. Boundary adjustments were a snap.

 

In addition to the lowest bass improvement, improvements in the mid and upper bass is significant. There is a bit more flesh on the bones, things marginally just a bit fuller sounding, especially at higher spl. The audiophile cliche “Flight of the Cosmic Hippo” is well served by the bxt. The tone and texture of Victor Wooten’s bass is more convincing than even the best headphone systems I have heard. Bass drums sound just a little more real and hit you harder than the Kii Three alone.

I would say that some claims of the BXT sounding like a completely different speaker system from the Three are a bit overblown. Coming back to my system, I have a small-ish room and have very rarely encountered the bass limiter, and that was basically when I was intentionally pushing the system looking for it. I don’t feel the need to add the BXTs for more than double the money. I really don’t even feel the need to add subs. The improvement is real, but the Three performs well enough for my use that the deminishing returns returns curve would be difficult to rationalize. For someone that has a huge room or needs high SPL, it is perfect (if costly.)
 

 

[fpalm69]

Excellent comment on the BXTs contribution to the Kii Three.  Exactly what I experienced in my system.  

[ragwo]

Kii Tea. 

Yes, I'm practicing my dad jokes. 

 

And the not so good looking covers attached with Tack It were installed after my youngest daughter tried feeding the mid range a plastic pony. Thankfully the speaker wasn't hungry and rejected her kind offer and escaped unharmed. I, on the other hand, watching the feeding frenzy, had a mild heart attack. 

[Emlin]

I'd have fed the plastic pony to her too! ;l

[pam1975]

hey everyone, 

I have been using my Kii Three for 2 years and I would now like to add a subwoofer to them.

 

2 questions:

1- how is the optimal way to connect a sub to the Kii Three?

2- I am just *thinking* at this point about adding a KEF KC62 (Frequency Response (-3dB) 11Hz). Would this work?

 

If you have good alternatives in a similar price range I would be happy to know (budget 1-2K) :) 

 

Thank you!

 

[fpalm69]

On 10/10/2022 at 7:50 AM, pam1975 said:

hey everyone, 

I have been using my Kii Three for 2 years and I would now like to add a subwoofer to them.

 

2 questions:

1- how is the optimal way to connect a sub to the Kii Three?

2- I am just *thinking* at this point about adding a KEF KC62 (Frequency Response (-3dB) 11Hz). Would this work?

 

If you have good alternatives in a similar price range I would be happy to know (budget 1-2K) :) 

 

Thank you!

 

Look at Cazzesman comments in this thread just above.  He seems to have done it successfully.

[fpalm69]

Hey Kii Three fans,

 

I am looking to implement the Kii system into a multichannel set up.  So far I have two Kii Three/BXT and another pair of Kii Three's so a total of four.  Moving towards a stereo / Home Cinema set up with surround.  Maybe one more Kii Three for the center with Kii Three/BXT for left and right all behind an acoustically transparent drop down screen.  The other pair of Three's for the rear surround.

 

Thinking about using an AV processor with analogs out to Kii analog XLR inputs.  Will still use my streamer with Kii control for stereo mode and raise the screen.  Set up two profiles in the Kii control - one for stereo and the other for cinema.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[Blade1001]

14 minutes ago, fpalm69 said:

Any comments would be appreciated.

 

I've gotta be honest -Kii Three's in surround positions will be a complete waste.

 

If I were you, I'd sell everything except the main Three/BXT pair, and use those funds combined with your existing budget to buy a good quality neutral surround speaker (JBL 708P etc), and use all the left over cash on a top quality processor like a Trinnov Altitude 16 which will replace your streaming box also if you are a Roon user, and give you a digital output into your Three's along with SOA room correction.