Kii Three - my impressions and pro reviews

[bobfa]

4 hours ago, baconbrain said:

I have a question to the community regarding the analog connections of the Kii's.

 

How is the analog signal handled by the internal DAC's of the speakers? Does it go through an ADA conversion for each driver or is it simply passed through? My assumption would be ADA, but am a bit uncertain since I have never used them until now,

 

Thanks 

 

4 hours ago, Bernstein said:

ADA is what happens

If you would like a little more info.  

 

Yes the Balanced analog signal is converted to Digial.  But what goes on inside the speaker is much more complex.

 

Every signal coming into the Kii Three is converted into the floating point digital by the DSP system in each speaker. The signal processing is all conducted in the DSP.  Then each driver system receives the its designated signal.  Such as the out of phase signals to the rear, etc.  Each driver has a DAC and 250watt power amp.

 

 

 

 

 

[baconbrain]

I would like to refer to a question from @Mazza which was asked a couple years ago ..

 

Has anyone further experimented with placing a higher quality DAC in front of the Kii's and then feeding them purely with an analog signal? If so, I would be interested if the Kii's retained the sound signature of the upstream DAC or not.

 

Thx

[Yellowspider]

Did not try this. But I´m using a phono pre with the analogue inputs. The "sound" of the pre is shown very well, also when comparing the pre to other units. So i think, there is no problem that the Kii will show you the "sound" of the DAC.

[Cazzesman]

On 9/8/2018 at 7:42 AM, baconbrain said:

Just wanted to provide a quick update around my subwoofer integration project. 

 

After listening to the system with my previously mentioned setting (80 Hz crossover, Butterworth Filter, etc.) for a few weeks,  I decided to loop back with Kii Audio and ask them as to their recommendations regarding settings, etc. Here their response:

 

“I would definitely stay way below 50Hz with the x-over to the sub, if I had to start I would start at around 30Hz and below. That´s where the Kii THREE has it´s -3dB roll off point, so you could slowly start to fiill the spectrum below that.
If you want extra SPL from the system, you can gradually turn down the Boundary control to -12(dB). If you do, you want the sub to come in below 50Hz roughly.
In any case, if you measure the room response of the Kii THREE only (with your Boundary setting of choice),
the Trinnov measurement should give you a proper indication where the power response drops off and try to fill that with the sub.
Don´t forget to roughly time align sub and Kiis. I would also experiment with using the front wall as a boundary layer for the subwoofer! The benefit being that you can eq the sub response to put out less energy (roughly -6dB) and the subwoofers time aligned (to the Kiis) wave front will also be cardioid of course.”

 

Given that my boundry setting are currently set at -12 with the corner placement of the Kii’s, I decided to change the active crossover settings to 50 Hz and utilize 8th order Linkwitz-Riley LP and HP Filters. This resulted in a much more distinct bass with a percieved positive influence to the SPL. 

 

If any of you are considering a 2.1 constellation with the Kii’s, I can only recommend that you give it a try. It is definately my preference setup and adds another dimension to an already excellent set of speakers.

 

 

 

@baconbrain

Hi BB,

 

I have been researching the heck out of various subs to see what might work with the Kii's.

 

The usual suspects that are easily accessible locally include REL, SVS, Rythmik and JL Audio.    REL seem to get the consistent tick of approval when matched for music.  

 

I notice that most of the REL's in my price range the 7i  (-6dB at 28 Hz) and the and 9i (-6dB at 30 Hz) are actually not going as low as the Kii's currently in my room.     

 

What sub are you using and do you find the sub actually goes lower than the Kii's?

 

How have you matched it/them to the Kii's.   Minidsp?

 

Am I missing something with the REL specs.   -6db at 30htz seems strange for a subwoofer.

 

Regards Cazzesman

[baconbrain]

8 hours ago, Cazzesman said:

 

@baconbrain

Hi BB,

 

I have been researching the heck out of various subs to see what might work with the Kii's.

 

The usual suspects that are easily accessible locally include REL, SVS, Rythmik and JL Audio.    REL seem to get the consistent tick of approval when matched for music.  

 

I notice that most of the REL's in my price range the 7i  (-6dB at 28 Hz) and the and 9i (-6dB at 30 Hz) are actually not going as low as the Kii's currently in my room.     

 

What sub are you using and do you find the sub actually goes lower than the Kii's?

 

How have you matched it/them to the Kii's.   Minidsp?

 

Am I missing something with the REL specs.   -6db at 30htz seems strange for a subwoofer.

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

Hi Cazzesman,

 

When I selected my current sub, a JL Audio Fathom F112, my criteria were more focused on Sub Type (ported vrs. sealed), percieved speed of the driver, and driver size. I believe that all of the manufactures you are referencing will be able to go low enough to compliment (or replace) the low end of the Kii's. Of course, when it comes to making a final choice, the best bet is to audition where possible and find the sw which matches your personal preferences.

 

Have you read the sw integration info from Barry Ober (aka the Sounddoctor)? If not, it is very good, and although somewhat JL SW specific, highly recommended. Here the link: http://www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm

 

In regards to bass management, I am using a Trinnov Amethyst which makes SW Integration much, much, easier. Really recommend investing in this type of solution given that a successful integration is key.  There are many solutions out there. DSPeaker, MiniDsp, Trinnov, to name a few. 

 

Hope this helps. 

  

[Cazzesman]

Wow the Sound-doctor's reading is very extensive.  I had never seen that before so thanks for the heads up.

 

Regards Cazzesman

[ShawnC]

3 hours ago, baconbrain said:

 

Have you read the sw integration info from Barry Ober (aka the Sounddoctor)? If not, it is very good, and although somewhat JL SW specific, highly recommended. Here the link: http://www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm

 

Hope this helps. 

  

Good read, thanks bacanbrain.  Mentioned in the article as a reference to omnidirection speakers are the Beolab 5.  When I was recently researching active speakers I looked at the new Beolab 50's which have low frequency extension to 15Hz, which could eliminate a need for an external sub-woofer.   

 

I was considering Kii's or Dutch and Dutch but In my head I want more bass then these can reproduce.  I use a REL sub currently with a simple setup but those work best with their Neutrik connection which you can't use with active speakers.  You can still add then with conventional connections but connecting RELs directly to the amplifier is how their designed to perform best.  So those are out.  I would consider JL or Rythmik subs if I bought either the Kii's or 8c's. 

 

I've been looking to see what people are doing for sub-woofer integration with these active speakers but their hasn't been much talk about it except for your implementation.  Are you sending the Trinnov signal to the speakers as digital or analog?  Just curious since any of these speakers will run it through there own DSP and DACs. 

[baconbrain]

7 hours ago, ShawnC said:

Are you sending the Trinnov signal to the speakers as digital or analog?  Just curious since any of these speakers will run it through there own DSP and DACs. 

 

I am sending a digital signal to the Kii‘s and an analog signal to the SW from the Trinnov.

[bobfa]

Is anyone using HQPlayer with the Kii's?  I am starting to play with HQplayer on my Antipodes CX+EX and am interesting in not going over covered ground if possible.  

 

I have PCM up convert working and I am trying to do DSD up convert.  I am using Roon to drive things.

 

 

[baconbrain]

16 hours ago, bobfa said:

Is anyone using HQPlayer with the Kii's?  I am starting to play with HQplayer on my Antipodes CX+EX and am interesting in not going over covered ground if possible.  

 

I have PCM up convert working and I am trying to do DSD up convert.  I am using Roon to drive things.

 

 

Hi Robbie,

 

I am using HQPlayer with the Kii's and really enjoy it. To my knowledge we haven't covered it to much in this thread given that Kii doesn't really encourage up-sampling, etc. but I personally would appreciate hearing your impressions.

 

BB

 

PS: Nice review on your JCat / JPlay article.

[bobfa]

2 hours ago, baconbrain said:

Hi Robbie,

 

I am using HQPlayer with the Kii's and really enjoy it. To my knowledge we haven't covered it to much in this thread given that Kii doesn't really encourage up-sampling, etc. but I personally would appreciate hearing your impressions.

 

BB

 

PS: Nice review on your JCat / JPlay article.

Can you share your settings for HQPlayer?  I am having trouble getting DSD upsampling to work,   I have something wrong!.  I am also looking for some sort of manual or description of all the filters and stuff..  I have not yet purchased the software I am running it in demo mode.

 

Kii does not talk a lot about how to improve SQ around them.  One of the biggest things I did recently was to separately power the Kii Threes and the BXTs. So I have four Puritan Audio Power Cords to the PSM158.  

 

RJF

[Blade1001]

What is the point in upsampling to DSD when everything has to be downsampled to 24/192 PCM for the Kii's?

 

Would you not be better putting HQPlayers re-sampling algorithms to better use converting everything to 24/192 PCM?

[baconbrain]

15 minutes ago, bobfa said:

Can you share your settings for HQPlayer?  I am having trouble getting DSD upsampling to work,   I have something wrong!.  I am also looking for some sort of manual or description of all the filters and stuff..  I have not yet purchased the software I am running it in demo mode.

 

Kii does not talk a lot about how to improve SQ around them.  One of the biggest things I did recently was to separately power the Kii Threes and the BXTs. So I have four Puritan Audio Power Cords to the PSM158.  

 

RJF

Could you share a few more details as to your HQPlayer setup? I am assuming you are connecting straight into the Kii Control via USB? Does PCM upsampling work?

[bobfa]

I really do not know what is really the best method fo the Kii.  Grand experiment. 

 

What is a good starting point for the Kii’s?

 

 

[Rubysea]

... and besides the Kii then re-samples every signal to an internal sampling rate of 93.75 kHz....(same as the Grimm LS1 I think....)

(https://kiiaudio.com/media/GENERAL/docs/reviews/kii3hfn818lowrez.pdf)

 

[Blade1001]

3 minutes ago, Rubysea said:

... and besides the Kii then re-samples every signal to an internal sampling rate of 93.75 kHz....(same as the Grimm LS1 I think....)

(https://kiiaudio.com/media/GENERAL/docs/reviews/kii3hfn818lowrez.pdf)

 

 

You're right yes, sorry, I thought it was 192 kHz - so the HQPlayer guys should really target 96Khz then perhaps . . 

[Rubysea]

Regarding this rather unusual internal sampling rate of 93.75 kHz I found some small additional info here:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/why-93-75-khz-sampling-rate.4309/

[baconbrain]

50 minutes ago, Blade1001 said:

What is the point in upsampling to DSD when everything has to be downsampled to 24/192 PCM for the Kii's?

 

Would you not be better putting HQPlayers re-sampling algorithms to better use converting everything to 24/192 PCM?

That is a valid question which has been raised a couple of times in this thread. For me it is not so much the SR itself but the filters used. In this regard, HqPlayer has a wide variety to experiment with.

 

[baconbrain]

46 minutes ago, bobfa said:

I really do not know what is really the best method fo the Kii.  Grand experiment. 

 

What is a good starting point for the Kii’s?

 

 

I would start with basic PCM to PCM up-sampling and take it from there.  Feel free to reach out via PM if you get stuck. 

[bobfa]

This will be fun.  Sort of like testing a new "gadget" in the audio chain or the like.  I think the question is:

 

Does HQPlayer upsampling sound "better" than letting the Kii Three's do it themselves?  

 

 

[Rubysea]

Sure, this can be fun and it would be interesting to know, if it actually does make a difference.
I myself though am currently happy with the results the Kii delivers with its own SRC processes but may be tempted if experiences here will sound promising

Below some statements I found from Bruno Putzeys on SRC and his implementation in the Kii Three:

"In terms of sample-rate conversion, it's worth mentioning that we designed our own software-based SRC because we wanted full control over jitter attenuation and impulse response. I found that filters with a relatively broad transition band (i.e. short impulse response) and extremely low in-band ripple are the most transparent. You've probably noticed that even RedBook comes rather close to high res. This is the underlying reason. Using super-high sample rates is a poor substitute for correct filter design. All data types with the Three end up converted to the same internal format but each input rate has filters designed specifically for it. The only 'disadvantage' of this is that you can't varispeed the digital signal but I guess it's not really something folks do anyway. Our internal DSP processing is 40-bit floating point. This means that no resolution is lost by digital attenuation. The connection to the DAC is fixed point but the output is fully dithered. People still don't believe it but dithering truly turns quantisation errors into pure noise that's indistinguishable from ordinary analogue noise. An item we're quite proud of is our IIR filter structure. It's completely different from the normal 'direct form' implementation that, AFAIK, literally everyone else uses.
..."
http://6moons.com/audioreviews2/kii/5.html

[fpalm69]

On 2/18/2020 at 2:46 AM, baconbrain said:

I would like to refer to a question from @Mazza which was asked a couple years ago ..

 

Has anyone further experimented with placing a higher quality DAC in front of the Kii's and then feeding them purely with an analog signal? If so, I would be interested if the Kii's retained the sound signature of the upstream DAC or not.

 

Thx

 I just tried the Chord Hugo TT2 DAC via XLR analog input to the Kii Three speakers.  Yes, it sounded better then the same music file level matched via USB into the Kii Control.  There was a bit more air/space between the musicians giving the impression of better resolution and overall more relaxed and musical.  Not night and day difference but over careful listening over several days switching back and forth I conclude the Hugo DAC sounded better then going through the Kii Control.

So, even with the Kii DSP converting/resampling the Hugo DAC analog signal it still came through as better SQ to my ears.  The standard Kii Control signal path had a fatter bigger soundstage, more forward where instruments tended to blend together.  Through the Hugo is was more reserved, relaxed, everything in it's place with a nice separation between instruments and vocalists.

 

I wonder it the upcoming Kii Preamp will improve the SQ over the Kii Control?  Seems there might be some room for improvement.

I use the Roon Nucleus via USB to the Kii Control, no other streamers or extra devices (I've tried several).  Would like to try the Innous Phoenix USB device.

[Emlin]

1 hour ago, fpalm69 said:

 I just tried the Chord Hugo TT2 DAC via XLR analog input to the Kii Three speakers.  Yes, it sounded better then the same music file level matched via USB into the Kii Control.  There was a bit more air/space between the musicians giving the impression of better resolution and overall more relaxed and musical.  Not night and day difference but over careful listening over several days switching back and forth I conclude the Hugo DAC sounded better then going through the Kii Control.

So, even with the Kii DSP converting/resampling the Hugo DAC analog signal it still came through as better SQ to my ears.  The standard Kii Control signal path had a fatter bigger soundstage, more forward where instruments tended to blend together.  Through the Hugo is was more reserved, relaxed, everything in it's place with a nice separation between instruments and vocalists.

 

I wonder it the upcoming Kii Preamp will improve the SQ over the Kii Control?  Seems there might be some room for improvement.

I use the Roon Nucleus via USB to the Kii Control, no other streamers or extra devices (I've tried several).  Would like to try the Innous Phoenix USB device.

 

 

Your results, if taken at face value, mean either that the Hugo is not transparent or that the Kii Control is somehow changing the data that is sends to the speakers. I doubt that either is the case.

 

If you were to do your comparisons, this time blind, I strongly suspect that any "differences" would disappear. 

[simonp]

4 hours ago, fpalm69 said:

I use the Roon Nucleus via USB to the Kii Control, no other streamers or extra devices (I've tried several). 

What type of USB cable do you use?

[baconbrain]

12 hours ago, fpalm69 said:

 I just tried the Chord Hugo TT2 DAC via XLR analog input to the Kii Three speakers.  Yes, it sounded better then the same music file level matched via USB into the Kii Control.  There was a bit more air/space between the musicians giving the impression of better resolution and overall more relaxed and musical.  Not night and day difference but over careful listening over several days switching back and forth I conclude the Hugo DAC sounded better then going through the Kii Control.

So, even with the Kii DSP converting/resampling the Hugo DAC analog signal it still came through as better SQ to my ears.  The standard Kii Control signal path had a fatter bigger soundstage, more forward where instruments tended to blend together.  Through the Hugo is was more reserved, relaxed, everything in it's place with a nice separation between instruments and vocalists.

 

I wonder it the upcoming Kii Preamp will improve the SQ over the Kii Control?  Seems there might be some room for improvement.

I use the Roon Nucleus via USB to the Kii Control, no other streamers or extra devices (I've tried several).  Would like to try the Innous Phoenix USB device.

 

Thanks for the feedback. At least theoretically, a higher quality D/A conversion in front of the Kii could make sense ...

 

Kii Preamp? Do you have more info?