Kii Three - my impressions and pro reviews

[firedog]

3 hours ago, Mazza said:

Has this been asked before? But is there any point whatsoever of using an external dac with the Kii’s?

 

from day one I have just fed them direct from my digital source but I am curious what an external dac might do to the sound sig ... I have no compunction to change but I am curious nonetheless

I am not sure why you would do that. The internal DACs in the Kii are obviously very good, I'd think probably as good or better than most stand alone DACs. If you have a super high end DAC, or just one that you love the particular sound of, I guess you could try it. The Kii will convert the analog input from the DAC to digital for processing in the DSP, of course. 

If you have a DAC with a special sound (such as a tube DAC) it would be interesting to hear if the Kii output retains the special sound of the DAC.

[firedog]

16 hours ago, input username here said:

 

Great question, I certainly have no idea.  I'd love it if they would introduce the long-awaited and more capable wireless controller... but I take the odd of that as being about zero.

 

Notwithstanding, Kii subs seem like a strange direction to me.  Firstly,  their technology is not cardioid  below 50 Hz.  So while a sub might be crossed over at, say, 100 or 150 HZ, I don't really a great benefit of going with Kii subs and not, say, a JL or a Velodyne.  Secondly, the THREEs are already flat to 20 Hz, so why would you even want a sub?  True, while I need no more bass in the near-field in my small-ish room, I guess someone with a very large room might want to move more air, but I think a larger Kii speaker (the FOUR or TWO, depending on if they're counting up or down), rather than an add-on sub, would be a more practical solution.  Just my two cents.

They talked once about a Kii floorstander that would use more of the same drivers, enabling more bass and also enabling them to deal with the issue of floor reflections - which wasn’t dealt with in the Three. The sub could do this, I guess, if it is an add-on below the tree that replaces the stands. That’s the configuration that was mentioned a while back.

[firedog]

5 minutes ago, PleasantSounds said:

.. and now in full view:

 

Yeah, any information on this anywhere?

I shudder to think of the cost....

[firedog]

20 minutes ago, input username here said:

Wow!

 

 

16 drivers = no rear-facing drivers?  Odd?

Don't know. Maybe there are. No official description yet. 

[firedog]

At another forum someone said Kii told him the price for a pair of the "subs" would be similar to the price for a pair of Kii's. 

[firedog]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

I wonder if the current software allows for room matching with the additional bass.

 

I does look like a Wilson killer...

I would assume adding the subs in would also demand a software update. Hard to imagine how the units would integrate with each other or the room otherwise.

[firedog]

Does say it will run on different software settings that will be configurable from the controller.  Surprisingly, they say it is also beneficial in small rooms.

[firedog]

1 hour ago, baconbrain said:

I am wondering if you can only utilize them as a pair, or if one could purchase just one and place it somewhere else in the room ... 

Definitely looks like you have to buy a pair. It isn’t really a sub. It’s a sort of a line array extension of the Kii Three, and to use it you have to change the software running the kii in the controller. So doesn’t look independent or that you can mix and match.

[firedog]

5 hours ago, input username here said:

 

Thanks for the heads up! 

 

It's very hard to tell from the 7 second video on the page, but I wonder if the connections (Power, Kii Link) can be made between the THREE and the BXT where the speakers "lock" together.  I think not, since my THREE's don't have any connectors on their bottom panel, but it would be nice--one of the compelling reasons I got the THREEs was to lower box-count and reduce the rat's nest of wires I'd collected... the BXTs (effectively) keep the box-count low, but I can see quite a bit of cable building up behind them, if they haven't developed some connector proprietary system I don't understand yet. 

Possible the only connections are the network cable connections on each box. 

[firedog]

5 hours ago, Kelly said:

I am curious what these will offer. The Threes already go down to subsonic frequency with little roll-off. I am guessing these would allow you to adequately compress larger rooms, go louder overall, and probably add some sort more tangible "jump" that seems to come from systems with forward firing woofers. The only other thing I wonder is if the additional bass drivers and their varied vertical heights gives the system more degrees of freedom with which to control the bass radiation. The Three by itself only directs the bass radiation in the horizontal plane, they had talked about a later system having more drivers to control radiation in the vertical plane to limit floor /ceiling reflections.

 

The power spec is a bit concerning, I wonder if you could start popping circuit breakers pretty easily at least in the US. I wrote Kii asking about power draw on the Three prior to getting an online UPS. They said a single Three speaker had been measured at drawing 1400W at a peak, so at least double that for a pair. You might theoretically need a special appliance line to run these things with the BXTs. Then again, you might blow roof of your house at 25% volume...

 

I am still waiting for them to activate Bluetooth. And they still haven't ever gotten my Control IR working. Grumble, grumble...

I think your speculaltions sound right. Pressurize a larger room with less distortion, give some "phyiscality" to the sound so they compete with larger speakers, and I'm assuming part of the idea is to reduce reflections in the vertical plane also. I assume Kal R. or someone else at Munich will find out and inform us.  

[firedog]

Prices and availability

The BXT extension will be available individually as well as in a set with Kii THREE loudspeakers from fall 2018 onwards. The prices including VAT are for a pair of BXT in one of the two standard colors high gloss white or graphite silk matt metallic 14.995,00 Euro , for a pair in other colors 16.995,00 Euro . The prices for Kii THREE including the remote control Kii CONTROL amount to 12,480.00 euros in standard colors and 13,480.00 euros for your own color preferences. The prices for the complete system are 27,475.00 Euro in standard colorsand 30,475.00 Euro with custom paint.

 

prices include VAT. for those outside of Europe you may be able to remove it. 

[firedog]

2 hours ago, Emlin said:

If the sound is always more "astringent" to you, I suspect expectation (or similar) bias, as there is no other explanation known to science . Unless Tidal are playing with things.  

It's already known that Universal Music watermarks all their files on Tidal and other streaming services, so the SQ for those won't be the equivalent of the sound of a local file.You should probably not be so sure that your absolute statements about what sounds the same are as true as you think.

[firedog]

4 hours ago, Emlin said:

I didn't know about Universal Music watermarks, but surely they are not the only only providers. Thank you for that information, though. I am still absolutely certain that the same file will sound the same. And that is all that I said. Thanks again for that info, though.

 

By the way, if streaming services aren't providing the unadulterated files, they should be shot!

 

 

They can only provide what they are given. They can't tell the labels what file to provide. Rights belong to the labels, the streaming countries are just "renting" the right to stream.

[firedog]

23 minutes ago, barrows said:

A large amount of folks are reporting less sound quality on playback from Tidal vs. locally stored files.  The thing is, one is never "sure" what they might be getting form a streaming service, whereas, if one is careful, one can know what they are getting with their own locally stored files.

I hear about audiophiles who are switching to streaming music entirely, and it makes me sad, if they have not really verified the quality level they are getting.  It is kind of like the wholesale switch to MP3 files for most people (non-audiophiles), i think the prevalence of MP3 playback in the consumer market is partly responsible for less "engagement" in music listening, and now we have streaming which also seems to destined to produce less "engagement".

Music is a wonderful, life changing experience, as audiophiles we need to fight backs and demand the highest possible playback performance, lest music listening as an life changing/affirming experience be lost.

 

Then there is the issue of compensation for musicians, as far as i can tell compensation for musician is a real problem, still, with all streaming services.  If musicians are not properly compensated for their work, what do we have?  A bunch of amateur musicians with day jobs, and not enough time to perfect their skills and art...

I feel like, if one subscribes to these services, they are part of the problem, think about your choices and how they affect the world.

 

I love Tidal, and listen to it a lot. When I really like something I find there that I listen to repeatedly, I buy the download.

But almost every time I buy a download that I've listened to on Tidal it sounds better in local playback. Not by a huge amount, but enough to notice the difference.

 

 I do not think this is simply expectation bias. This could be different mastering, but I'm not convinced that's all that's going on - some of the albums seem to be the same master. And I don't think the issue is the typical "bits are bits" thing.

There are some explanations I can think of, I don't think we need to start a whole discussion about this in this thread.

[firedog]

8 hours ago, sapporo said:

 

If I understand correctly you are in the camp that considers loudspeakers' phase alignment as less important for the listening of recorded music? That is a huge topic by itself and my personal jury is still out. I will be very grateful for any input.  For me the  underlying problem of Kii's in a home environment is something that Floyd Toole called "a circle of confusion". In image registration, to follow this"CoC" concept from optics, todays' technical standards are clear. What the camera registers has a very big  chance of being faithfully reproduced at home (with all the creative changes introduced during postproduction). Not so with audio. For that, the standards of studio monitors should be exactly the same as those for the speakers used at home. Unfortunately there are no standards for either. So when you listen at home to a piece of music on  hyperresolving speakers like Kiis, you have no guarantee that's the way the artist and the engineer/producer wanted it to sound. Maybe their monitors did not resolve Jarrett's  moans to the comical degree you get to hear them on Kiis? Or maybe some micing schemes or mastering moves did not sound so unnatural and intrusive as they might  on Bruno Putzey's loudspeakers? The right sequence would be for Kii-like monitors to overrun all key studio facilities in the world. Then home listeners could really  hear musical recordings as the creators intended. But it won't happen any time soon, and by putting the cart before the horse the chances are the process of "deconfusing the circle" will be subverted.

 

Sorry, your argument makes no sense. According to your logic, the only way to properly listen to any album would be to have the same speakers at home as the producer or engineer had. But that basically never happens no matter what the speaker, so then no one is properly hearing any album - according to your standard.

And has it ever occurred to you that an album might be worked on at several locations by different engineers and producers, each of whom listens with different speakers?  So then what speaker is the "right" one to hear the playback with?

Beyond that, I don't agree with you at all about the Kiis. I think they sound real and perfectly natural, not at all as you've described them. Being able to hear more of what's been recorded doesn't cause "confusion". It  adds to understanding and enjoyment of the music.

[firedog]

Okay, let's get back on topic. This is not a thread about  the "circle of confusion" or any other similar topic. Topic is the Kii Threes. 

[firedog]

15 hours ago, tboooe said:

I've been planning on upgrading my integrated amp soon but the idea of simplifying my system as well as getting rid of my room treatments is very appealing to me. I can probably sell my integrated and speakers to finance purchase of the Kii.  I've started to do some research about these speakers and have some questions for owners.

• If I am understanding the Kii manual correctly, adjustment of the Kii DSP is a manual process (i.e. listen and adjust).  Are people using room measurements from something like REW to help with the adjustments?
• How granular is the Kii adjustment?  Can I adjust a specific frequency or just a range?
• Is anyone still using convolution filters in conjunction with Kii to get the exact freq response they prefer?  
• Are room treatments still needed with the Kii or is the DSP good enough to not need help from room treatments?
• How is volume remotely controlled without the Kii Control?
• Is the Kii DSP SW/firmware upgradeable?
• Is anyone still using a sub or a pair of subs with the Kii?

Thank you in advance.

 

1. Yes, it is manual. A few users have reported using REW and correction and said it didn’t make a big difference. YMMV. I’d guess it depends a lot on your room and if nodes are excited by the speakers in spite of the cardoid bass. Measurements certainly coudn’t hurt if you want to fully optimize results. 

2. With the Kii Control, you can setup just about any filter range you want. It works on high and low shelf filters, and you can dial in specific frequencies. Without the control you don’t have that level of granular adjustment.

3. See 1

4. They couldn’t hurt. Would depend  a lot on your room and setup. In my room I sit very close to back wall, so I still need treatments behind me to prevent reflection to my ears from the wall. 

5. It isn’t. You would have to have software volume control in your playback software, or be using a pre\volume control  into the Kii that has a remote. 

6. Yes, but there haven’t been upgrades sent to users yet. Apparently a few users with issues have had upgrades installed remotely by Kii. Kii have said they will be releasing an app that will make firmware upgrades simple. 

7. Don’t know.

[firedog]

1 hour ago, baconbrain said:

 

 

In regards to your last point, I am using my Fathom SW together with the Kii‘s and performing the bass management with my Trinnov in a 2.1 constellation. Although the integration was a bit challenging, I am quite pleased with the results.

Interesting. What's your setup for the crossover to the sub - frequency, and slope of filter, etc. ?

 

Possibly one of the only weak points of the Kii is that they hit their limits when musical material with very low bass notes is played loudly. 

 

Do you find that adding the sub enables you to get not only better bass response, but  a more dynamic, loud sound? That is, no sense of the Kiis hitting their limits?

 

[firedog]

2 hours ago, hattrick15 said:

 

If one of the main points of getting the Kii is to properly handle the direction of bass, doesn’t having a separate sub defeat the purpose of the Kii’s DSP?  

 

Can you explain more about how the sub increases the sound quality and more detail on how it is hooked up and the equipment/software you are using (I don’t know what Fathom SW, Trinnov, and a 2.1 constellation are referring to).  

 

Thanks in in advance for your insights.

The directional bass is only from about 80hz and up. Below that it isn't directed. It The cardoid bass pattern makes a huge difference, but it doesn't totally solve all problems. 

[firedog]

30 minutes ago, Rafael Sampaio said:

My Kii setup: (Is in the website!) 

 

For those who use a different, “audiophile” power cable, is the difference subtle fro

 stock cables? What should I expect? (Due to taxes is really expensive to import goods in Brazil)

 

Many thanks! 

 

Rafael

 

Just make sure you get a connector that fits the back of the Kii. 

BTW, I didn't' know Kii made a rug to match. Can you get that pattern in the any color you can get the Kii?

 

[firedog]

39 minutes ago, pippenainteasy said:

The Kii Three BXT was at RMAF. I was hoping for an amazing showing but I suspected it was not DSP corrected in the room, because there were all kinds of upper bass peaks and was a below average presentation I heard at the show.

Doesn't make sense that it "wasn't DSP corrected in the room".

The Kii doesn't have DRC, and isn't intended to. It's DSP is internal, automatic, and isn't  "room correction". The Kii is  supposed to be setup in the room, and then the "boundary" function set according to how far the speakers are from the walls/corners. That determines what the internal DSP does, not the room itself or feedback from the room. The "boundary" setting should eliminate  many of the room reflections by producing  only forward firing, properly timed output. When adding the BXT it is  supposed to automatically integrate with the "boundary" settings already chosen with the master unit.
It also has a "contour" control, which is a DSP equalizer/tone control that can make further adjustments for personal taste. You could use  it  to help calm some part of the spectrum you hear as too strong, or beef up one you feel is too weak.  But that adjustment should be just a finishing touch, and not part of the basic setup.

It shouldn't be hard to get a good sound from the Kii. It seems very odd that an exhibitor showing the unit wouldn't be able to set it up properly. Who was the exhibitor?

[firedog]

11 hours ago, hvbias said:

Has anyone heard both Kii Three and Dutch and Dutch 8c and why you chose to go one over another? I have read both of Mitch's excellent reviews, just looking for more opinions.

 

 

Just from reading online posts, there are several people who've reacted much like Mitchco: Dutch and Dutch has slightly more powerful bass and a bit warmer sound, and they preferred it. 
There are a couple of others who said they preferred the mid and high end of the Kiis as better revealing detail. 
I haven't heard the D&D, I'm sure they are great. My guess is it comes down to personal taste and the room they are setup in/listening position. Even with all the room defeating tech, the room will still have some influence in what you hear. 
I doubt you can go wrong with either. Do you have any possibility of hearing either at a dealer? 
Even if you can only hear one of them, I' d bet you'd get a pretty good idea if it's something you'd like. 

[firedog]

4 hours ago, dustblue said:

Hi guys,

 

Just had a Kii three demo today. Good sound, almost on par with genelec 8351, but much more low bass.

What I found to be annoying is it constantly overload(flash red, but no sound interruption) on a 85 volume setup(on controller), with basically any music with some real bass content. While turn down to 80 volume the overload is not that frequent but only on really bass heavy stuff.

 

My question is do you also experience this same problem? or do you think this is not a problem?

With exactly the same setup and listening distance and sound pressure level, 8351 NEVER overload(on GLM software the level is actually only -28dB, compare to Kii controller 85 volume setup with a up limit of 100, Kii three is literally playing with a -15dB volume, which seems that Kii has a somewhat lower power compare to 8351, no?).  

Mine pretty much never flash red, even 85 setting and above.  In fact, while sitting here I am playing the newest King Crimson release with some very heavy bass and drums. I turned the volume up to ear splitting levels. I got the red flash only at the 99 and 100 volume level. Even 98 didn't cause the limiter to kick in.

So something else is going on: either a defect in the pair your heard (doubtful); or some very extreme DSP is being done internally or in the feed to the speakers and they are being asked to react in a way that is making them hit their limits. Or the pair you heard was setup so that 85 is actually equivalent to 100 in the factory settings or something like that. It can't be just be the volume simply being turned up to the 85 mark. 

[firedog]

mistake

 

[firedog]

47 minutes ago, dustblue said:

The Kii threes are just very easy to overload.

 

Okay, I did your test. My setup overloaded at 93, not at 85. And that was much louder than I would ever play the speakers for more than a few seconds. It's clearly ear damaging loud.
 

And honestly, I think your above statement is sort of silly. Your experiment is the ONLY time I've gotten the light to flash in a year and a half of listening to the Kiis. Even when I had the volume turned up in the mid 90's (I do that sometimes for orchestral music). I normally listen not at ear crunching levels, but at volumes that most people consider loud. Generally around 80db at my position. 
 

If you are listening at Kii overload levels on a regular basis - well, good luck to you when you have severe hearing loss  and/or tinnitus. 

And BTW, you only know the Kiis are overloading b/c of the red light. And it doesn't actually mean they are overloading, it means the limiter is kicking in and preventing damage to the drivers. Most systems don't tell you that you are playing too loud for them, so you don't know. You need to get over your psychological thing about the speakers exploding, b/c the opposite is true. The light means they are being prevented from being damaged.
You might want to write Kii and ask them what it means (if anything) if you are playing them back with the limiter on all or most of the time.