Kii Three - my impressions and pro reviews

[Ralf11]

Jitter is dead??

 

- what makes you say that?

[sapporo]

On 5/25/2018 at 5:50 PM, firedog said:

 

I love Tidal, and listen to it a lot. When I really like something I find there that I listen to repeatedly, I buy the download.

But almost every time I buy a download that I've listened to on Tidal it sounds better in local playback. Not by a huge amount, but enough to notice the difference.

 

 I do not think this is simply expectation bias. This could be different mastering, but I'm not convinced that's all that's going on - some of the albums seem to be the same master. And I don't think the issue is the typical "bits are bits" thing.

There are some explanations I can think of, I don't think we need to start a whole discussion about this in this thread.

You can downlad all Tidal files without buying—on mobile devices. They might occasionally sound a bit better because of no wifi or telecom transmission artefacts. It is highly doubtful Tidal keeps two versions of all 50 million tracks

[sapporo]

On 4/16/2018 at 11:31 PM, zachchen1996 said:

Has anyone experimented with upgrading / changing the stock ethernet cables?

I'm considering getting Wireworld Platinum Starlight Cat8 Ethernet Cables for my incoming Kii Three and Kii Control.

 

Thanks guys!

Cabling is potentially the most divisive topic in amateur audio. Not so among pros and engineers. It is hard to suspect the Kii crew of sabotaging their own sound at the exhibition. The Cat 5 cable is characterized in a standard descrbing its performance up to 100Mhz. It relies on balanced differential signalling.

As long as the standard is observed there is no reason to go for expensive versions. Same with audio cables- their performance is dependent on well known and described physical characteristics. And then the power cables...Let’s just think for a moment about all that wiring in the building, the power lines to the trafo station... The last stretch from the wall socket to the device would somehow influence things critically?

[sapporo]

Kii subs... yes that’s some turn of events. First they claimed an absolutely

satisfactory bass performance from the Kii Three. Now they add a 15k supplement to improve it. I have been testing Kiis on loan for some time. Their bass is amazing for such small speakers but cannot match the distributed subs system I am using.

As for the general sound impressions, to me Kiis are very good studio monitors.

That means they analyze the program well, unstrip and examine it in a medical way.

That’s what sound engineers in studios need. There is the issue of 90 msec delay which makes the Kiis unsuitable for tracking and video applications. You can turn off DSP to get rid of the delay but then all phase alignement magic also disappears.

Some people report interestingly that it makes no difference. Studio monitoring experience is peculiar and Kiis are no different here. You can hear the micing schemes. With grand pianos your head will be often inside the piano and the hammers wil pound your ears. This is not how music lovers like to listen to concerts. Typically they  sit in the audience where music arrives as a more homogenous auditory experience. To me the moans of  Glen Gould or Keith Jarrett at the pianos are disturbing. Studio monitors often make porn of music.

At home I much prefer the subtle love story as told by good non-studio speakers.

[baconbrain]

2 hours ago, sapporo said:

Cabling is potentially the most divisive topic in amateur audio. Not so among pros and engineers. It is hard to suspect the Kii crew of sabotaging their own sound at the exhibition. The Cat 5 cable is characterized in a standard descrbing its performance up to 100Mhz. It relies on balanced differential signalling.

As long as the standard is observed there is no reason to go for expensive versions. Same with audio cables- their performance is dependent on well known and described physical characteristics. And then the power cables...Let’s just think for a moment about all that wiring in the building, the power lines to the trafo station... The last stretch from the wall socket to the device would somehow influence things critically?

Science and standards are either true or false, individual perception of the senses is somewhere in between.

[TheStupidOne]

BXT system isn't a subwoofer system, it's a bass system. The difference is that they play all the way up to 250 hz as confirmed by Bruno. This is significant in the sense that they will considerably increase the sense of impact in the upper bass as well as reduce the impact of floor reflection in the bass range.

 

While I understand what you mean by the revealing character of studio monitors, I'd like to point out that it's very simple to tune the Kiis to suit the taste with the on board dsp through the Control. If the possibility is there it's strange not to take advantage of it.

[sapporo]

21 minutes ago, baconbrain said:

Science and standards are either true or false, individual perception of the senses is somewhere in between.

Science and standards are not in the same category. Science is a set of hypothesis and theories that beg constant falsification. Standards are objective facts. Individual perception is more like religion. If somebody says he hears voices there is no way you can prove him wrong.?

[sapporo]

26 minutes ago, TheStupidOne said:

BXT system isn't a subwoofer system, it's a bass system. The difference is that they play all the way up to 250 hz as confirmed by Bruno. This is significant in the sense that they will considerably increase the sense of impact in the upper bass as well as reduce the impact of floor reflection in the bass range.

 

While I understand what you mean by the revealing character of studio monitors, I'd like to point out that it's very simple to tune the Kiis to suit the taste with the on board dsp through the Control. If the possibility is there it's strange not to take advantage of it.

If BXT goes all the way to Schroeder frequency that means they attempt to fight room modes with it. I wonder how it is done, especially with the units radiating from the same spots as the mains. And what happens with the mains? Is there a crossover between the two units? If so, it’s poor engineering to put all that bass capacity in Kii Three and then cut it off. If not, more questions...Before reliable tests it’s hard to say what’s going on there. There is a lot of research on bass and modes; Welti, Toole, Geddes among others. Seems like Bruno Putzeys is doing some new things here, again. My audio hero BTW. 

As for tuning the Kiis to lose their studio monitor character, isn’t it easier and cheaper to get non-studio monitors in the first place?

[Emlin]

More info on the BXT including an interview with Bruno Putzeys:

 

https://darko.audio/2018/05/playback-pioneers-2018-bruno-putzeys-kii-audio/

[TheStupidOne]

3 hours ago, sapporo said:

If BXT goes all the way to Schroeder frequency that means they attempt to fight room modes with it. I wonder how it is done, especially with the units radiating from the same spots as the mains. And what happens with the mains? Is there a crossover between the two units? If so, it’s poor engineering to put all that bass capacity in Kii Three and then cut it off. If not, more questions...Before reliable tests it’s hard to say what’s going on there. There is a lot of research on bass and modes; Welti, Toole, Geddes among others. Seems like Bruno Putzeys is doing some new things here, again. My audio hero BTW. 

As for tuning the Kiis to lose their studio monitor character, isn’t it easier and cheaper to get non-studio monitors in the first place?

As Bruno says, the goal is to provide a line-source concept up to 250 hz with the benefit of reducing floor reflection in the bass range, to produce a greater wall of sound and to increase spl capability in the low range. 

Room modes can only be fought with subs placed at different places or acoustical treatment.

Expect Kii to remain full-range in order to ensure the cardioide dispersion and an even wall of sound.

 

Regarding your last question, yes it's cheaper. If you don't want or need cardioide dispersion, a plug and play system with fancy dsp or don't care about sound accuracy, Kii might not be for you. They are expensive and they can be bettered for the same or less money if you're up for the challenge.

 

But I will say that it's quite possible that you end up compensating for bad mixing or bad acoustics with lesser speakers if you don't know what's causing the problems in the sound. That's why I recommend fiddling with the eq settings in the Kiis so one can experience how massively different one can make a speaker sound in a second

[Kal Rubinson]

11 hours ago, sapporo said:

And what happens with the mains? Is there a crossover between the two units?

No, there is no added LPF for the Threes.  The overall DSP function is modified to integrate the BXT without it.

14 hours ago, sapporo said:

Some people report interestingly that it makes no difference. Studio monitoring experience is peculiar and Kiis are no different here. You can hear the micing schemes. With grand pianos your head will be often inside the piano and the hammers wil pound your ears. This is not how music lovers like to listen to concerts. Typically they  sit in the audience where music arrives as a more homogenous auditory experience. To me the moans of  Glen Gould or Keith Jarrett at the pianos are disturbing. Studio monitors often make porn of music.

I am one of those people who believe there is no difference.  You should be able to hear the micing arrangements with any good and competently designed speaker system.  As for the pianos in your head, that has little to do with the speakers but more to do with poor setup and the recording itself.  While you may find the extramusical sounds of Gould or Jarrett disturbing (as I do), if they are on the recording and your speaker doesn't reproduce them or effectively reduces their levels, then your speaker system (monitor or domestic design) is faulty.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

  As for the pianos in your head, that has little to do with the speakers but more to do with poor setup and the recording itself.  While you may find the extramusical sounds of Gould or Jarrett disturbing (as I do), if they are on the recording and your speaker doesn't reproduce them or effectively reduces their levels, then your speaker system (monitor or domestic design) is faulty.

 

Agreed, if you stick the microphone inside the piano or down the bell of the saxophone or at the tonsils of the singer, one tends to skew the sound somewhat lol. That said I do enjoy a close perspective and don't mind hearing extramusical sounds. I realize it is not a really purist approach whereby you take the perspective of an audience member in a concert. However when I play, or sit next to a musician playing I do hear all those extra things, as well as a richer fuller sound. Perhaps you could call it a musicians perspective rather in-audience perspective. I know  @gmgraves  uses two mics suspended above the orchestra and I find this quite natural

[Emlin]

1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

No, there is no added LPF for the Threes.  The overall DSP function is modified to integrate the BXT without it.

I am one of those people who believe there is no difference.  You should be able to hear the micing arrangements with any good and competently designed speaker system.  As for the pianos in your head, that has little to do with the speakers but more to do with poor setup and the recording itself.  While you may find the extramusical sounds of Gould or Jarrett disturbing (as I do), if they are on the recording and your speaker doesn't reproduce them or effectively reduces their levels, then your speaker system (monitor or domestic design) is faulty.

 

Agreed. I want to hear what those recording have recorded. If I don't like it, I won't listen to it again. Band or recording. There's plenty of other stuff out there.

 

But I do pity those "young" bands without any recording experience who get "treated" for the market, then bomb because of it.

[gmgraves]

41 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Agreed, if you stick the microphone inside the piano or down the bell of the saxophone or at the tonsils of the singer, one tends to skew the sound somewhat lol. That said I do enjoy a close perspective and don't mind hearing extramusical sounds. I realize it is not a really purist approach whereby you take the perspective of an audience member in a concert. However when I play, or sit next to a musician playing I do hear all those extra things, as well as a richer fuller sound. Perhaps you could call it a musicians perspective rather in-audience perspective. I know  @gmgraves  uses two mics suspended above the orchestra and I find this quite natural

I suppose if one were a musician, be it a pianist or a saxophonist, that "in-your-face" sound of piano mechanisms and air hole valves clicking plus a very close-up sound of the instrument itself, would sound quite normal. Most of us sit in the audience and listen, and I, for one want my music served-up that way. That's why I record the way I do. 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

2 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

I suppose if one were a musician, be it a pianist or a saxophonist, that "in-your-face" sound of piano mechanisms and air hole valves clicking plus a very close-up sound of the instrument itself, would sound quite normal. Most of us sit in the audience and listen, and I, for one want my music served-up that way. That's why I record the way I do. 

 

Its a preference thing at the end of the day and I guess depends on what one considers real and natural. I would argue for both but have no problem either way.

[Emlin]

1 minute ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Its a preference thing at the end of the day and I guess depends on what one considers real and natural. I would argue for both but have no problem either way.

 

"Real", "natural"? Sound reproduction will never be either. You can take your choice, but some methods are more accurate than others.

[gmgraves]

5 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Its a preference thing at the end of the day and I guess depends on what one considers real and natural. I would argue for both but have no problem either way.

I wouldn't argue either way, I just don't like the "in-your-face-way", but then I'm not a musician. 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

27 minutes ago, Emlin said:

 

"Real", "natural"? Sound reproduction will never be either. You can take your choice, but some methods are more accurate than others.

 

We are taking goals, not realized.

[Emlin]

2 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

We are taking goals, not realized.

 

Like England's penalty shoot-offs?

[sapporo]

21 hours ago, Emlin said:

More info on the BXT including an interview with Bruno Putzeys:

 

https://darko.audio/2018/05/playback-pioneers-2018-bruno-putzeys-kii-audio/

 A great, informative, inspiring  interview with Bruno Putzeys. He looks like some evangelist  prophet patriarch now, with his grey beard and the fantastic shirt ! To me he is  a Bob Carver of our times, a true scientist and a visionary. So much information and so many ideas in this one short interview. I'll have to watch it several times to get the full impact. One thing is for sure--I'll want to listen to BXTs with Kiis when they are available. I would like to add that I had the pleasure to correspond briefly with Bruno when his ncore amps appeared and he was so kind and helpful to answer all my questions. Now I use exclusively ncore  amping . And I follow greedely whatever he says or writes on audio.

[sapporo]

21 hours ago, TheStupidOne said:

As Bruno says, the goal is to provide a line-source concept up to 250 hz with the benefit of reducing floor reflection in the bass range, to produce a greater wall of sound and to increase spl capability in the low range. 

Room modes can only be fought with subs placed at different places or acoustical treatment.

Expect Kii to remain full-range in order to ensure the cardioide dispersion and an even wall of sound.

 

Regarding your last question, yes it's cheaper. If you don't want or need cardioide dispersion, a plug and play system with fancy dsp or don't care about sound accuracy, Kii might not be for you. They are expensive and they can be bettered for the same or less money if you're up for the challenge.

 

But I will say that it's quite possible that you end up compensating for bad mixing or bad acoustics with lesser speakers if you don't know what's causing the problems in the sound. That's why I recommend fiddling with the eq settings in the Kiis so one can experience how massively different one can make a speaker sound in a second

Now that I watched the interview linked by @Emlin I have  a better understanding what Bruno Putzeys is after. I might even become a convert when I get a chance to listen to BXTs with Kiis, who knows. There is one caveat though,  that I desribe in my post below.

[Kal Rubinson]

41 minutes ago, sapporo said:

Now that I watched the interview linked by @Emlin I have  a better understanding what Bruno Putzeys is after. I might even become a convert when I get a chance to listen to BXTs with Kiis, who knows. There is one caveat though,  that I desribe in my post below.

Below?

[sapporo]

13 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

No, there is no added LPF for the Threes.  The overall DSP function is modified to integrate the BXT without it.

I am one of those people who believe there is no difference.  You should be able to hear the micing arrangements with any good and competently designed speaker system.  As for the pianos in your head, that has little to do with the speakers but more to do with poor setup and the recording itself.  While you may find the extramusical sounds of Gould or Jarrett disturbing (as I do), if they are on the recording and your speaker doesn't reproduce them or effectively reduces their levels, then your speaker system (monitor or domestic design) is faulty.

 

If I understand correctly you are in the camp that considers loudspeakers' phase alignment as less important for the listening of recorded music? That is a huge topic by itself and my personal jury is still out. I will be very grateful for any input.  For me the  underlying problem of Kii's in a home environment is something that Floyd Toole called "a circle of confusion". In image registration, to follow this"CoC" concept from optics, todays' technical standards are clear. What the camera registers has a very big  chance of being faithfully reproduced at home (with all the creative changes introduced during postproduction). Not so with audio. For that, the standards of studio monitors should be exactly the same as those for the speakers used at home. Unfortunately there are no standards for either. So when you listen at home to a piece of music on  hyperresolving speakers like Kiis, you have no guarantee that's the way the artist and the engineer/producer wanted it to sound. Maybe their monitors did not resolve Jarrett's  moans to the comical degree you get to hear them on Kiis? Or maybe some micing schemes or mastering moves did not sound so unnatural and intrusive as they might  on Bruno Putzey's loudspeakers? The right sequence would be for Kii-like monitors to overrun all key studio facilities in the world. Then home listeners could really  hear musical recordings as the creators intended. But it won't happen any time soon, and by putting the cart before the horse the chances are the process of "deconfusing the circle" will be subverted.

 

[atletico]

I have used my Kii Three's for enjoyable hi-fi listening now for over a year. For me these are just a damn good overall speaker/ speaker system. I don't care a second if they are used by many dedicated studio technicians.

I have had in my room over  the last 30 years many good systems an more expensive "hyperresolving"  amps and speakers.

The Kii Three's just sounds like music in my listening room and do not make me "listening -tiered" after just a short time..

 

I also have a little home studio where I can record my own music. The Kii Three speaker are not part of this , but it's nice to have a "sound quality" check on my own recordings on my main Kii Three setup before doing a final master..

So I really don't understand much of some of this arguments presented in this tread...

Now I'm looking forward to test the full BXT system.

[sapporo]

56 minutes ago, atletico said:

I have used my Kii Three's for enjoyable hi-fi listening now for over a year. For me these are just a damn good overall speaker/ speaker system. I don't care a second if they are used by many dedicated studio technicians.

I have had in my room over  the last 30 years many good systems an more expensive "hyperresolving"  amps and speakers.

The Kii Three's just sounds like music in my listening room and do not make me "listening -tiered" after just a short time..

 

I also have a little home studio where I can record my own music. The Kii Three speaker are not part of this , but it's nice to have a "sound quality" check on my own recordings on my main Kii Three setup before doing a final master..

So I really don't understand much of some of this arguments presented in this tread...

Now I'm looking forward to test the full BXT system.

Music is always in the ear of the listener, so I am honestly happy when people like their private musical experience. But social life without differences  would be paradise  and some of us are not quite ready for that. Hence internet forums...