Kii Three - my impressions and pro reviews

[dustblue]

2 minutes ago, firedog said:

 

Okay, I did your test. My setup overloaded at 93, not at 85. And that was much louder than I would ever play the speakers for more than a few seconds. It's clearly ear damaging loud.
 

And honestly, I think your above statement is sort of silly. Your experiment is the ONLY time I've gotten the light to flash in a year and a half of listening to the Kiis. Even when I had the volume turned up in the mid 90's (I do that sometimes for orchestral music). I listen not at ear crunching levels, but at volumes that most people consider loud. Generally around 80db at my position. 

NO, with 77 volume it also overload, try the pirate soundtrack I mentioned.

I tried 2 sets of speakers, one set with 3 different signal paths and all overload above 77 on some sound tracks, I don't think if you test it EXACTLY as I instructed and don't see overload on 80, not mention 85.

I don't mean I don't trust you, just maybe you did something wrong.

Unless there are 2 kinds of Kii threes and the kind we have here is inferior.

 

And I stated very clearly that when I say overload I mean the limiter kicked in. No offence but if you did not see this it would be very sensible that you did not follow my test instructions accurately.  

[mitchco]

Wow, I am curious at what sound pressure level this is being listened to at the listening position? Do either of you have a SPL meter or can use a SPL meter app on your phone as a rough indicator?

 

I only managed to get the limiter to kick in on some very bass heavy tracks approaching maximum output. That's perceived as 4 times louder than reference level of 83 db SPL...

 

So what are folks measuring SPL wise?

[firedog]

Just now, dustblue said:

NO, with 77 volume it also overload, try the pirate soundtrack I mentioned.

I tried 2 sets of speakers, one set with 3 different signal paths and all overload above 77 on some sound tracks, I don't think if you test it EXACTLY as I instructed and don't see overload on 80, not mention 85.

I don't mean I don't trust you, just maybe you did something wrong.

Unless there are 2 kinds of Kii threes and the kind we have here is inferior.

 

And I stated very clearly that when I say overload I mean the limiter kicked in. No offence but if you did not see this it would be very sensible that you did not follow my test instructions accurately.  

 

I don't really have any more interest in your issue.
Like I said, if you are listening that loud you are, to my way of thinking, a little insane. The Kiis are designed for the 100 setting to be very loud for music with a large real dynamic range (orchestral music, not fake dynamics like those soundtracks)  and for the limiter to kick in to prevent damage to the speakers when they are pushed to their limits. 
Again, if I was you I'd ask Kii if it is a problem for the speakers to have them constantly hitting their limit. And maybe the Kiis aren't for you if that is how you are regularly using them. 

[dustblue]

1 minute ago, mitchco said:

Wow, I am curious at what sound pressure level this is being listened to at the listening position? Do either of you have a SPL meter or can use a SPL meter app on your phone as a rough indicator?

 

I only managed to get the limiter to kick in on some very bass heavy tracks approaching maximum output. That's perceived as 4 times louder than reference level of 83 db SPL...

 

So what are folks measuring SPL wise?

Just follow my instructions please or read it through, I stated very clearly.

For a mixing/mastering music calibration it would be pink noise through only one speaker with 75dB SPL level on listening position which means double speaker 78dB(the pro audio dealer told me this, I trusted him as a very experienced professional so I did not check this online), I used 80dB double speaker pink noise calibration is actually not extremely loud. And the threes do indeed overload at this level everytime.

[firedog]

30 minutes ago, mitchco said:

Wow, I am curious at what sound pressure level this is being listened to at the listening position? Do either of you have a SPL meter or can use a SPL meter app on your phone as a rough indicator?

 

I only managed to get the limiter to kick in on some very bass heavy tracks approaching maximum output. That's perceived as 4 times louder than reference level of 83 db SPL...

 

So what are folks measuring SPL wise?

 

At my listening position, I was getting about 101-102db (at almost 3m distance) when the limiter kicked in on that drum solo track. Measured  C weighting,  time setting =fast,  and hi setting (60-130db). This is with an American Recorder SPL meter, model SPL-8810.

 

That's clearly something which damages your hearing after a relatively short exposure (less than 15 minutes), and something I'd never do for any period of time. 

[dustblue]

2 minutes ago, firedog said:

 

I don't really have any more interest in your issue.
Like I said, if you are listening that loud you are, to my way of thinking, a little insane. The Kiis are designed for the 100 setting to be very loud for music with a large real dynamic range (orchestral music, not fake dynamics like those soundtracks)  and for the limiter to kick in to prevent damage to the speakers when they are pushed to their limits. 
Again, if I was you I'd ask Kii if it is a problem for the speakers to have them constantly hitting their limit. And maybe the Kiis aren't for you if that is how you are regularly using them. 

Good for you.

I simply want to know the Kii threes' limit. If you put the threes in a small room you would never encounter this kind of problem.

But put it in a 7m*9m*6m room would be very, very different, which is I am planning to do and honestly I don't think it would be a good idea considering the overload reality of the threes.

I bought the threes because they sound good, I even didn't mind the overload problem when I made the decision onsite today because it is so good. 

It worth for me even just put them in a small room for some casual listening.

 

[dustblue]

3 minutes ago, firedog said:

 

At my listening position, I was getting about 101-102db when the limiter kicked in on that drum solo track. Measured  C scale, fast setting,  and hi setting. 

Now we are talking.

That is absolutely normal and same with my situation.

Just remember music at 101-102dB does not means the speakers is calibrated at 101dB level.

You calibrate the speaker at 80dB level and it played 105dB content is NORMAL, that's why speaker headroom is so important.

FYI on Kii Three specification the peak level is 115dB, not 101dB, it should not overload at 101dB in my opinion. 

Kind of false marketing.

[firedog]

20 minutes ago, dustblue said:

Now we are talking.

That is absolutely normal and same with my situation.

Just remember music at 101-102dB does not means the speakers is calibrated at 101dB level.

You calibrate the speaker at 80dB level and it played 105dB content is NORMAL, that's why speaker headroom is so important.

FYI on Kii Three specification the peak level is 115dB, not 101dB, it should not overload at 101dB in my opinion. 

Kind of false marketing.

101 -102 db measured output at 3 meters from the speakers means the output at the speaker is much greater, and at 1m from the speaker (the standard distance for these measurements) I think that means the output is 107-108 db. 115 is peak, not sustained or short term spec. Peak means "momentary".

So yes, that is right in the range of the published limits of the speakers (105db long term, 110 short term, 115 peak). Not false marketing at all. 

You can find a few audiophile systems that will play a little louder long term than that. Not so many. Maybe that's what you should be looking for. 

[dustblue]

15 minutes ago, firedog said:

101 -102 db measured output at 3 meters from the speakers means the output at the speaker is much greater, and at 1m from the speaker (the standard distance for these measurements) I think that means the output is 107-108 db. 115 is peak, not sustained or short term spec. Peak means "momentary".

So yes, that is right in the range of the published limits of the speakers (105db long term, 110 short term, 115 peak). Not false marketing at all. 

You can find a few audiophile systems that will play a little louder long term than that. Not so many. Maybe that's what you should be looking for. 

FYI:

115dB free field single speaker @1m(Kii peak output) =

110dB free field single speaker @3m =

113dB free field twin speaker stereo sound @3m =

115-120dB typical small room  twin speaker stereo sound @3m

May I ask what is your listening room dimensions?   

I love Kii threes but I won't neglect the facts or shortcomings, let people know the truth and they would make better decisions on their hard earned money. That's why forums exist.

 

[firedog]

37 minutes ago, dustblue said:

FYI:

115dB free field single speaker @1m(Kii peak output) =

110dB free field single speaker @3m =

113dB free field twin speaker stereo sound @3m =

115-120dB typical small room  twin speaker stereo sound @3m

May I ask what is your listening room dimensions?   

Where are you getting those figures? I don't know anyone who rates their speakers at 3m. The standard ratings for output are all at 1m. 

Again, peak output means nothing here. Peak means momentary, like a orchestra crescendo. Something that lasts a second or two (or less). Your soundtracks aren't like that, they have extremely loud short term and sustained levels. 

 

I was measuring 101-102db at just under 3m listening position. That means the output at the speakers together was about 10db more or about 111-112db at 1m for 2 speakers. Or about 108-109 for one speaker (my previous estimate was a bit off). 3m listening position is about a 10db drop from standard measurement at 1m distance. 

So even taking the Kii figure of 110db at 1m for short term as your standard,  that means the speakers stated limits would be 113db output for a pair, and at the 3m listening position that translates to 103 db. And I'd say for the type of music you are referring to, the 105db (long term) standard is the one that should apply. So again, not outside the stated specs of the Kii. 
 

[dustblue]

8 minutes ago, firedog said:

Where are you getting those figures? I don't know anyone who rates their speakers at 3m. The standard ratings for output are all at 1m. 

Again, peak output means nothing here. Peak means momentary, like a orchestra crescendo. Something that lasts a second or two (or less). Your soundtracks aren't like that, they have extremely loud short term and sustained levels. 

 

I was measuring 101-102db at just under 3m listening position. That means the output at the speakers together was about 10db more or about 111-112db at 1m for 2 speakers. Or about 108-109 for one speaker (my previous estimate was a bit off). 3m listening position is about a 10db drop from standard measurement at 1m distance. 

 

So even taking the Kii figure of 110db at 1m for short term as your standard,  that means the speakers stated limits would be 113db output for a pair, and at the 3m listening position that translates to 103 db. And I'd say for the type of music you are referring to, the 105db (long term) standard is the one that should apply. So again, not outside the stated specs of the Kii. 

It’s called math.

I dont mean to be rude but your calculations are totally wrong.

Measure it yourself and you would know.

[firedog]

15 minutes ago, dustblue said:

It’s called math.

I dont mean to be rude but your calculations are totally wrong.

Measure it yourself and you would know.

It's not called math. It's called a lack of understanding from you of the specs - what they mean and - how they work and are measured. It would take you about 2 minutes in a Google search to find out what I said is correct. 
Standard Measured output for one speaker at one meter is generally considered to be +3db for two speakers and a 10 db drop at a 3 meter listening position. So your claim of 110db for one speaker at 3m is totally wrong. There's no such spec. It's 110 for one speaker at 1m. So 113 for 2 speakers at 1m and 103 at for 2 speakers at 3m. 
 

Note: Mitchco, who wrote the Kii review on this site and is an experienced recording engineer just upvoted my previous post that you think means I don't understand the math. Are you going to argue with him, too?

Again, write Kii. How much do you want to bet they back me up? 

[dustblue]

2 minutes ago, firedog said:

It's not called math. It's called a lack of understanding from you of the specs - what they mean and - how they work and are measured. It would take you about 2 minutes in a Google search to find out what I said is correct. 
Standard Measured output for one speaker at one meter is generally considered to be +3db for two speakers and a 10 db drop at a 3 meter listening position. So your claim of 110db for one speaker at 3m is totally wrong. There's no such spec. It's 110 or one speaker at 1m. So 113 for 2 speakers at 1m and 103 at for 2 speakers at 3m. 

Please, measure the pink noise level at 3m & 1m both in your room and see if there would be a 10dB difference. 

If your answer is yes I would tag you as a lier and ignore everything you say thereafter.

[firedog]

Just now, dustblue said:

Please, measure the pink noise level at 3m & 1m both in your room and see if there would be a 10dB difference. 

If your answer is yes I would tag you as a lier and ignore everything you say thereafter.

Not wasting my time on you. People who don't know the basics and argue about it without checking if their assumptions are wrong aren't worth my time. 

[Mazza]

1 hour ago, dustblue said:

I simply want to know the Kii threes' limit. If you put the threes in a small room you would never encounter this kind of problem.

But put it in a 7m*9m*6m room would be very, very different, which is I am planning to do and honestly I don't think it would be a good idea considering the overload reality of the threes.

 

@dustblue Forgive me but I am starting to miss the point of your thread. 

 

You now have the Kii's, you are going to put them in this room and either they will work for you or not. If they don't, you have said you will put them in a smaller room. So what is the concern or what is it exactly you want help or advice on?? Or are you just trying to score points on whose maths is correct?

[firedog]

2 minutes ago, Mazza said:

 

@dustblue Forgive me but I am starting to miss the point of your thread. 

 

You now have the Kii's, you are going to put them in this room and either they will work for you or not. If they don't, you have said you will put them in a smaller room. So what is the concern or what is it exactly you want help or advice on?? Or are you just trying to score points on whose maths is correct?

it's not his thread....
He mistakenly thinks his findings mean the Kiis don't meet their output specs. 

[dustblue]

Just now, Mazza said:

 

@dustblue Forgive me but I am starting to miss the point of your thread. 

 

You now have the Kii's, you are going to put them in this room and either they will work for you or not. If they don't, you have said you will put them in a smaller room. So what is the concern or what is it exactly you want help or advice on?? Or are you just trying to score points on whose maths is correct?

I want to know if my overload test is correct, if kii threes output is really  limited at roughly 105dB peak. I have a delicated home theater which is 6.3m*4.7m*2.7m

and a lobby measures 7*9*6

I need lots of speakers in both rooms.

[dustblue]

Sound attenuates much slower by distance in a small room than in free field, a 3m 101dB peak doesn’t mean a 111dB 1m peak , just to be clear. Real world measures would more likely be 105dB at 1m

[baconbrain]

13 minutes ago, dustblue said:

I want to know if my overload test is correct, if kii threes output is really  limited at roughly 105dB peak. I have a delicated home theater which is 6.3m*4.7m*2.7m

and a lobby measures 7*9*6

I need lots of speakers in both rooms.

At those levels, I believe the next thing you will need is a hearing aid ...

[dustblue]

I would love to see someone who really knows kii tell us the overload doesn’t mean shit and we are free to use it at 100volume without fearing to burn the speaker. 

That way I can put the threes in my lobby, not a pair of expensive wilsons.

[dustblue]

Have you ever burned a HF driver? If yes then you would know why I am so concerned about overload/overdrive 

[Emlin]

9 minutes ago, dustblue said:

I would love to see someone who really knows kii tell us the overload doesn’t mean shit and we are free to use it at 100volume without fearing to burn the speaker. 

That way I can put the threes in my lobby, not a pair of expensive wilsons.

 

The limiting is what ensures that the drivers don't exit the enclosure. You can turn them up to eleven, and you won't hurt them.

[dustblue]

2 minutes ago, Emlin said:

 

The limiting is what ensures that the drivers don't exit the enclosure. You can turn them up to eleven, and you won't hurt them.

Has anyone using the threes at more then 95volume without a preamp attenuation long term(yes that must be in a relatively large room and far feild)  without damaging the speaker or experience distortion?

[Emlin]

Almost certainly. The DSP will stop overload. It's designed that way. How about you? You seem to get hot under the collar with little provocation, and take an inordinate time to cool down.

[Mazza]

6 minutes ago, dustblue said:

I would love to see someone who really knows kii tell us the overload doesn’t mean shit and we are free to use it at 100volume without fearing to burn the speaker. 

That way I can put the threes in my lobby, not a pair of expensive wilsons.

 

Nope. Still don't get it.

 

Rather than theorise, why not just put them in your lobby or wherever, play them at whatever insane levels you want to, for as long as you want to [you have already been advised that the limiter will prevent damage to them] and see if it's loud enough for you? That way, you can assess SQ, measure whatever SP levels that you want to etc and if your are in doubt that your particular Kii's don't meet spec, you can raise the issue directly with Kii. 

 

You may have picked up that none of the respondents have an inkling to play their Kii's at the Controller volume of 100 for any lengthy duration, so if your issue is questioning the durability of the Kii's or how the limiter works when treated this way, you really need to speak with Kii. I think I can guesstimate their response.